Dovetail Games Bought By Focus Entertainment

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by niall101b, Apr 20, 2023.

  1. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think the point here is that DTG have said for months (years possibly) that they have stringent testing, beta testing, external QA testing etc in place, but even now we know that they're testing when they're already post dev
    So they've got people testing the software (and let's be clear they KNOW that they have a history of bugged releases) when they also KNOW there's no chance of those issues being fixed.

    In your case it was a one off oversight, but I can bet you if you ever produced anything again you'll get a third party to check that the system works as expected BEFORE submitting it for output or release.

    And this is what people are querying here.
    Yes mistakes happen. Yes things slip through the net, but if you've got a system in place that's supposedly designed to catch issues before they hit the paying public (or baying masses here and elsewhere) surely you'd allow time for the testing process to work, feed back to the dev cycle and allow for those changes to take effect? Surely DTG who are PAYING for the testing process want some return and efficacy from that testing?

    So yeah, issues happen and individual devs aren't at fault necessarily, but the structure of the dev cycle IS at fault and that's a matter for some senior managers, game directors, producers, executives and company directors to address. Maybe it's something that will now be looked at with fresh eyes
     
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  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Agreed... It's not that
     
  3. deeuu#6908

    deeuu#6908 Well-Known Member

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    With that particular situation I had to submit before it was peer reviewed, but anyway...

    Beta testers can find 1000 issues, but if you don't have to time to fix them, or they aren't high enough priority to spend what time is available to fix them, they won't get fixed before release.

    Deadlines, especially one's that have financial ramifications or penalties lead to a lot of triaging of issues.
     
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  4. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Well-Known Member

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    I think the key question with this statement is: If you had a team of people checking your work and they found that error, would you still submit your work knowing full well it would have a negative impact? Or would you go the extra mile to rectify your mistake/s to ensure a more positive outcome.
     
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  5. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    But the reality of this industry is that most publishers would rather release a product to a predetermined schedule, because it can be patched later. The unfortunate problems with DTG have been that they take an age to release fixes, they break more things than they fix, or they totally abandon the product and don't patch it.

    DTG have been in what I perceive to be the advantageous position of being their own publisher. On the one hand, I don't know why they don't sometimes delay their releases for further refinement, as they set their own release schedules and had no third party to answer to. On the other, having no third part to answer to seems to leave them resting on their laurels.

    Now Focus Entertainment have taken the helm as publisher and owner, all we have to do is wait and see what changes, if anything.
     
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  6. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I needed to edit that but I got some sort of spam filter error.

    The point I was trying to make is; what you're trying to say isn't really valid because you're an individual relying on your own skills to spot mistakes, whereas DTG are a large team in which their work (supposedly) goes thru many checking processes to ensure the highest standards are met prior to release.
     
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  7. deeuu#6908

    deeuu#6908 Well-Known Member

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    The developers don't decide when it's done., you've got to appreciate that this is a business, and as much as we like to think developing hobby based software is all pink clouds and rainbows, it's not.

    Lots of people expect the moon on a stick, even when you produce work for free, I developed an addon for MSFS 2002, christ, over 20 years ago!, a Shorts Skyvan, for free, and people still complained about things, there are just some people who will always find fault, and they can never be appeased.
     
  8. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If FE allow Peak Forest to be released in its current state with no fixes to physics, with incorrect rolling stock and unrealistic service patterns then it'll prove to me that nothing will change and TSW3 is becoming nothing more than a arcade game with zero simulation.

    Hopefully TSC upgrades will make that compatible and stable on modern laptops so I've still got a rail simulation to enjoy.
     
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  9. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't let this release be the indicator of future developments, because FE have only just made the announcement. The takeover might not be complete yet, and either way I'm guessing Peak Forest development and release schedules were set by DTG before FE's buyout.

    I think we need to give this more time to see any changes, if any.
     
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    As you said yourself, the contrary to this is that DTG set their own release schedule, so this then comes down to project direction and management. If they know that a product will need to be published on May 31st 2023 that product should be testing two months before that with testing finished a month later. And by published, I mean uploaded rather than released... we know they've had issues found after publishing (which is what leads me to believe they're still developing at that point over and above issues caught by testing)

    DTG have several teams, not all of which cross check each other but all of which should be tested by internal, auto, QA and Beta testing. That still doesn't mean that those tests feed back in time for devs to do anything about it, and that seems to be the point of failure.

    This is also true... Then again we have had instances in TSW where things were changed and complaints went away (about that specific thing). I think the main issue here is either blatantly obvious things "fall through the net" (like the aforementioned rain effect on the 158) or even when things are "fixed" these things don't get released very quickly (and by fixed I mean Matt goes on the roadmap stream and says they're fixed but we don't get that in the wild for months)
    Many people won't see something as "fixed" until it never happens again, and whilst I don't agree that this is necessarily the case, I can see their point sometimes.
     
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  11. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Well-Known Member

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    Being in control of your own destiny is not really an advantageous position any more. Codemasters (the last of the great indie teams) struggled financially for years to the point where they had to crowdfund Dirt Rally because they simply could not afford to do it themselves, so if a team with their stature has difficulty competing in an industry that requires continued investment then it can't be much better for other small teams competing within the same sector.

    Obviously I don't know the ins and outs of the videogame industry but many years ago I was part of a very small semi-struggling (but with exclusive patents) engineering team of six employees who merged with a bigger company and although we had to adhere to different terms & conditions we benefited hugely from the merger....right upto the point where the exit strategy was activated.

    At the end of the day Focus aren't train sim competitors who are buying into DTG to steal all their tech in order to make their product a better financial proposition, they are a company who have presumably recognised some level of potential within TSW and put their money where there mouth is. It's a common practice nowadays so I really am struggling to see where all the doom and gloom is coming from.
     
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  12. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I only meant advantageous in terms of making release schedule decisions, nothing more.

    I don't understand any doom and gloom either. I would sooner expect a positive outcome from the takeover.

    I'm in a position to know a fair bit about the games industry, albeit by proxy. This is why I'm critical but try to be fair, too, as I understand what development is like behind the scenes. This is why issues don't bother me per se; ignoring major issues like a dysfunctional save game feature for more than 6 years is definitely astonishing and unacceptable, however.

    I would hope Focus lead them out of whatever business practice has resulted in such things.
     
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  13. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I have to say, though, pinxtonpaws that sometimes publishers can sabotage projects. I know of a game port that was entirely scrapped because of the publisher refusing to allow the dev team to use a tool they'd created to intelligently scale assets for optimisation reasons. The publisher wouldn't allow it because their precious characters had to have the exact same level of detail on all platforms, which meant that it couldn't possibly run on one particular platform that had already been announced in the gaming press.

    I've seen articles about this game's "mysterious disappearance" after it was announced. I know exactly why it disappeared, and it's just silly and was completely unavoidable. That kind of thing can shut down a studio from financial loss (I know of that happening too).
     
  14. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I guess they are fair comments.
    I'm a console gamer so all I really know is "we get what we get". :|
     
  15. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Isn´t this the difference between amateurs and professionals?
    A professional also has a responsibility to bare and can not simply say ¨Oops, my bad!¨. Otherwise, they need to look at a different sector entirely.

    Quality is on the plate of only a very small amount of game developers and publishers (maybe a handful?). Profit is what drives the majority of them and DTG is in this group. And before I get jumped with remarks such as ¨This is not a charity¨, look at how much money an actual quality product makes when people and publications praise it left and right and the word about it spreads everywhere.
    The conclusion is that who runs after money will not make as much as expected after all.

    SCS Software releases one map update per year for ETS2. Their reviews are always very positive. According to Wikipedia, total revenue in 2019 was around 25 million euros.
    Quality just makes more. A real professional would have learned this by now, but not DTG...
     
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  16. MLP Derick

    MLP Derick Well-Known Member

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    Adam has a new job at Skyhook now
    al_shg.JPG
     
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  17. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    MLP Derick Those are good (awesome!) news and automaticly I'm interested in the works of Skyhook Games again :)
     
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  18. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Well done Skyhook and well done Adam.
     
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  19. TimTri

    TimTri Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations, Adam!
    That’s a very interesting move indeed. I’m assuming Skyhook offered him a very high-level job with lots of responsibilities for their TSW content to convince him to move away from DTG after all these years. Together with Jane, who also seems to be very committed to upholding quality standards and listening to the community, this makes me very confident for the future of Skyhook’s TSW DLCs! :D
     
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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    We can't know, but it would be unsurprising if Adam leapt at the opportunity to work with the legendary Jane Whitaker
     
  21. AtherianKing

    AtherianKing Well-Known Member

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    Content Manager
     
  22. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The massive fiscal success of EA suggests it isn't all that necessary.
     
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  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well this is something that DTG doesn't do. They cut coners for the sake of profit and sacrifice quality in the process in many previous dlc's. Although considering that many will still buy the product regardless means they don't have much incentive to change no matter how much criticism they get
     
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  24. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Considering EA have a virtual monopoly on NFL, Football, PGA and NHL games, and also produced classic games considered to be the best in their genre (SKATE, Star Wars Battlefront (new one), and much more, I'd say EA get away with a lot more because they make a lot of, well, good stuff.
    Even when it's broken and a mess, like FIFA is, it's fun. Exceptions apply to games that are literally unplayable, like Jedi Survivor on PC.

    Their reputation is mostly slammed not on product quality, but because of their eye for money. The biggest complaint about the EA Sports Franchises is that it's "the same thing every year", not that they're bad, or low-quality. Most issues end up ironed out within a few months at worst. Although, in a year-long lifecycle that is fairly bad.
     
  25. matt245621#2075

    matt245621#2075 Well-Known Member

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    Well EAFC is not the same new name new features and much more.
    Now yes when it was called FIFA it was the same every year but £99.99 for the ultimate addition is asking for a bit to much. (Sorry for going off topic)
     
  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    :o!!

    EA's version of Battlefront was widely despised (3.6 on Metacritic), released chock-full of bugs, together with wonky controls and uninspired content. so that even the mediocre SWBF2 was considered a huge improvement-.... and tumorous with loot boxes, locked heroes and other pay-to-win microtransaction scams. EA became widely hated for its industry-leading chiseling and moneygrubbing- a practice it extended to its subsidiary studios' franchises, like Mass Effect. (There's a whole book in how EA wrecked Bioware....)

    No, nobody loves or respects EA. They define the software company that regards its customers as nothing but cattle to be milked- but can get away with it because of their license monopolies.
     
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  27. pessitheghost

    pessitheghost Well-Known Member

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    EA is way worse than DTG, if EA made train sim, you’d have to pay to be able to use the livery designer
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You'd have to pay to use the horn.
     
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  29. tft#6439

    tft#6439 Well-Known Member

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    And pay like 10k to get past the main menu!
     
  30. pessitheghost

    pessitheghost Well-Known Member

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    You’d have to pay to leave the cab lmao
     
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  31. tft#6439

    tft#6439 Well-Known Member

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    $100 Dollars To Use Acceleration DLC Player: Ok fine I guess. $1,000,000 Dollars To Use Main Menu Player: UGHHHH
     
  32. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    I was referring to SWBF2, I assumed we as a species had elected to forget BF1.
    SWBF2 is really well-recieved among, well, most people who've played it. My comment's more applicable to that.

    I agree that EA are just hungry for money but they're hardly rolling out "hot garbage", as the Americans would say, with every release.
     
  33. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, sure...
     
  34. pessitheghost

    pessitheghost Well-Known Member

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    Trust me they are, FIFA 23 was an absolute scripted peice of junk, BF 2042 wasn’t too good, NFS hasn’t been good since hot pursuit, let me not even mention anthem
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2023
  35. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    FIFA 23, scripted?
    Lol...
    Someone lost a few too many games of Fut Champs, me thinks.
     
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  36. pessitheghost

    pessitheghost Well-Known Member

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    There’s been way too much evidence to prove scripting, and it’s been a problem for years
     
  37. FallenAngel00me

    FallenAngel00me Well-Known Member

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    Scripting is massively prevalent against the AI in career mode though. Don't play the pay to win FUT
     
  38. airbusfan1330

    airbusfan1330 Active Member

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    Well honestly BF2042 has gotten better upload_2023-7-19_0-5-12.png
    No idea why season 4 is stilll on the thumbnail for me
     
  39. airbusfan1330

    airbusfan1330 Active Member

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    And NFS can be fun sometimes upload_2023-7-19_0-6-52.png
     
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  40. SteveRail

    SteveRail Well-Known Member

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    Might get a career mode though!! : )
     
  41. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    EA have managed to prove at every turn that there is no scripting in the game at all. The only thing scripted to happen would be the random things like injuries and the harshness of a referee. Most people who claim 'scripting' are just terrible at the game, looking through all previous claims.

    FUT isn't pay-to-win, either. It's incredibly easy, compared to other years, to simply not buy FIFA Points, and just work up coins. I've bought one set of FIFA Points in FIFA 23 and that's because I had some money left in my Xbox account and I wanted to use it on something.

    It's just so easy to make claims against EA because they're usually quite dodgy, but it would be best to use the stuff that is actually still true, as your arguement.
     
  42. pessitheghost

    pessitheghost Well-Known Member

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    EA is extremely pay to win, what they do is just downright predatory, and manipulative with ultimate team, in fact there has been quite a few countries that have outright laid UT out as gambling, literally EA is the definition of corporate greed in the Gaming community, they are like the apple of gaming, EA are probably the biggest cancer in gaming. There are just too many examples of poorly done EA games, their hatred is justified, not only because of fifa, and you are very funny if you don’t think fifa is scripted, because there is too much evidence out there to prove other wise, they script the game to keep a player interested, you’d know scripting exists if you played career mode
     
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  43. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Div 9 detected
    (Nothing wrong with scripting a single-player mode, btw. That's how story modes work, so why should it be different here)
     
  44. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I nearly always found sports games frustrating. In the case of management games, no matter how good a team you set up you never end up winning. Had that with both soccer and baseball management titles. In the end I just give up and removed the games. Even the great Championship Manager went downhill, though I don’t think that has been soiled by EA.
     
  45. tft#6439

    tft#6439 Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever played an EA game. Almost everything is DLC!
     
  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I managed to get Cardiff City promoted to the premiership on Football manager and kept them up for a season, just about! I had a great save on FM2009 the first with a 3D match engine with Arsenal, lasted for several seasons although didn't win that much. It was great seeing the regen players grow.

    Apart from a few of editions of Fifa I haven't really owned many EA games, they seemed okay to me though. Although not being a huge gamer I don't really follow who has a good reputation or not and frankly I don't care that much.
     
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  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Soccer management for me peaked in 1999 with Fifa Soccer Manager (ironically an early EA title) when I managed to get Darlington briefly to the Premier League. But just like the golf games where it seemed fixed you could never better Tiger Woods in a match, football went down the same path.

    Anyhow a bit OT I know, but given DTG diversified into fishing and that board game I had never heard of, maybe they should try their hands at sports management!
     
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  48. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Championship (now Football) Manager is still really good. A lot more depth to it (which can be an issue for new/long-absent players) but sometimes can feel dull. The Console edition is a great addition, and FM25 will see the game jump over to Unity with a brand new match engine. We might also be able to transfer saves from one game to the next as of FM24, so it's now looking really good going forward.

    I have. Hardly need the DLCs, in most cases, to play the games, though.
     
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  49. tft#6439

    tft#6439 Well-Known Member

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    I played EA Sports golf but that's about it. Don't see the point in games that can hardly be played without dlc.
     
  50. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Ouch £44.99 though. I notice previous versions no longer on sale either.
    However wishlisted for the Autumn sale.
     
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