Midland Mainline - Skyhook Feedback

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by jane-skyhook, Apr 19, 2023.

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  1. andyscotland

    andyscotland Well-Known Member

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    I woildnt say its not fit to play, I play it on PS4 and it's fundamentally a good effort, but to release stuff which then takes over a month to fix all the issues isn't cricket I grant you.
     
  2. bartolomaeusz

    bartolomaeusz Well-Known Member

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    How much has now been implemented? (I haven't played the Route since release week, when I found it quiet but fine). Sorry, didn't read all 24 pages of posts.
     
  3. andyscotland

    andyscotland Well-Known Member

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    Apparently much work is going on behind the scenes although we've not seen any of it yet
     
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  4. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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    There is another thread called something along the lines of mml progress in the TSW disscussion somewhere. I don't think it's pinned but there are a few good screenshots from Jane on there.
     
  5. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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  6. Southern Driver

    Southern Driver Active Member

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    I’m not entering into argument with people on here about this. I’ve given my opinion.
    I am a main line driver, so for me the idea of isolating (or not unisolating) safety equipment just doesn’t sit right. Perhaps it’s just my OCD.

    I would also point out that just because I find it unplayable doesn’t mean I expect anyone or everyone else to.
     
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  7. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    None of the routes I own are" unplayable " in the sense of not loading or not working.

    However, there are some that I don't care to play because of some shortcoming (s) that make them unenjoyable. For example, I'm not playing NYT at the moment, even though it loads and operates, because the timetable and signalling are not up to par.

    Maybe that's a distinction we can make.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2023
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  8. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I haven't even bought NYT yet because of the timetable but will do when it is released. I was about to refund this route, despite seeing its potential due to the timetable, but I saw Janes new thread in the nick of time. I have only bought Peak Forest as despite the caveats I am sure the timetable will get a revamp and new stock will be arriving but I didn't purchase it on the back of what I saw originally.

    There is no reason for anyone to purchase a route without seeing what it is all about first. Hyperbolic statements like "the route is unplayable" when it demonstrably isn't, don't really aid a cause in my opinion.
     
  9. Southern Driver

    Southern Driver Active Member

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    yes I agree with that, it’s interpretation. To me it’s unplayable because I really do not want to play something (which I’ve not paid a small amount of money for!) that is clearly unfinished. I’m almost convinced that more services operated during the RMT strikes than there are on the route as it stands currently!!

    But look, just because I don’t think it’s acceptable that it’s been released in this current state doesn’t mean I think everyone else should agree with me.
     
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  10. jane-skyhook

    jane-skyhook Well-Known Member

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    Morning All,

    To address concerns, yes we are still plugging away at the fixes. Yes, the dev team have done a ton of work and are doing so.

    I didn't want a quick "band aid" patch, as I am very keen for the first patch to be as comprehensive as possible on key issues. Any time spent on the patch is not suspicious, more of a case we want more to be in there.

    Nothing has changed in that we are still looking for a release this month if the stars align. So yes we ARE getting close obviously. I am hoping to sign off this morning on the new timetable and clear that for inclusion as it is now complete. The biggest issue requested by everyone and we have responded. Just the timetable alone has taken some weeks of additional work.

    Again, patch 1 will NOT address everything, I want to temper expectations, but it addresses an enormous list of issues. It also adds additional content and functionality. We will keep plugging away and have some exciting plans for the future of MML.

    I appreciate everyone's patience, but I genuinely wanted to address as much as we could in the window we had for this first patch. I think that is the way to go at this stage. Release meaty fixes and content, rather than repeated scrappy patches.

    Jane
     
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  11. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Jane for your feedback. Seems like you and Skyhook, are doing everything you can to make the MML play and look fabulous. Thank you.
     
  12. Southern Driver

    Southern Driver Active Member

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    I do appreciate your comments on this Jane.

    Personally my feeling is the big stuff (not the timetable improvements or building improvements) but the things like the AWS issues, the signal issues, the inability to sit in the train and what I would think could be considered ‘core issues’ could have been fixed in an initial patch release. Just to get it to where it should have (at the very least) been when it was released.

    had the route release been delayed then I don’t think there would have been the same level of frustration (again, I can only speak for myself here) but to release the route and then have such a long wait for the patch release is a bit off to my mind.

    as I’ve said countless times now, these are my views, I’m glad some people are content with the route as it is, but for me I just cannot enjoy it with the ‘core issues’ there, timetable changes and building improvements will be welcome and appreciated, but really what I’ve wanted to hear and see are ‘fixes’ not improvements.
     
  13. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    It's certainly not unplayable, rough round the edges and lacking in the timetable, yes. But what we've got is playable.

    The word unplayable gets banded about on this forums I feel some people have actually forgotten what it means.

    The dostos on RT BR182 are unplayable. Anything else is playable if perhaps not to the expectations of the player base.
     
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  14. jane-skyhook

    jane-skyhook Well-Known Member

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    Morning, I really appreciate your comments and I am completely on the same page with you on fixes. As of this morning on my JIRA I see around 180 fixes (in response to bugs, not new additions). I will be very open and say that not every fix has yet been done and this is just patch 1. The team have been working super hard, but I wont have them working long "crunch" hours (I have been there and done that!). There are a huge amount of fixes in traction, signalling and a myriad of other reported bugs. As I say, around 180 items signed off as complete thus far.

    This is my first ever train sim product and it was on my bucket list to do one, so I am passionate about this as are the team. We are investing in MML now and in the future. Work on MML continues. Some of you I see on here know of me and my work. I think those people will also likely know my reputation for an anal perfectionist :) The team join me in that too.
     
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  15. jane-skyhook

    jane-skyhook Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much, I will pass your thanks on to the team. They will really appreciate it.
     
  16. Southern Driver

    Southern Driver Active Member

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    What I would say is that the route itself is lovely, I do enjoy it but for me it has to be all or nothing. So I can’t run it with safety system isolated because that really messes with my OCD.

    I wish you luck for what I hope will be more and more routes, but I would politely insist YOU test them before release in the future.
     
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  17. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    The route was delayed a few weeks.
     
  18. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I am afraid my ignore list has recently grown much bigger reading through several of these post after having taking an hiatus from the forums for a while. :)
     
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  19. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, there have been a few odd posts, but, given a thread of 24 pages and almost 1200 entries, I think on the whole it's been a pretty good, wholesome discussion.

    Some people object to any negative or critical remarks. That's just unrealistic. There needs to be some yin and yang.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2023
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  20. CrAzZyKiLLa

    CrAzZyKiLLa Well-Known Member

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    Now its a case of when will this update happen...
     
  21. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Now you can count how many months are shortcutted to rush todays tsw routes out. Same with dtg routes.

    Nice to have the update, this thread and all the hype, but my honest opinion: its just another peace of rushed dlc. I personally wasnt satysfied with its release, but very annoyed of the entire unfinished state.

    This update wont come anytime soon, just my guess..
     
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  22. Southern Driver

    Southern Driver Active Member

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    An unpopular view here but an honest one and one I share. To me this isn’t an update, this is a fix AND an update rolled into one and that’s what I have a big problem with. The bug fixes should have been addressed first, and that fix released asap. As mentioned on countless occasions the route either should not have released in its current state due to the problems being known about or it should have been more thoroughly tested if they weren’t.

    having the ‘nice to haves’ such as timetable and building improvements is appreciated and again should have been in the release version but they shouldn’t be the priority now. Fix the bugs. Release that fix. Add the bits that were missing on release.

    so frustrating as this is (away from the problems) is such an excellent bit of work and I really hope Jane and the team will make another route when this one is actually finished.
     
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  23. Fitz

    Fitz Well-Known Member

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    I finally bought this route on the back of the update and bug fix promises.

    What jumped out at me after the training and one service in the class 158 was.

    There is no coupling modeled under the gangway of the 158s, they are connected by magic and you can look up through the bottom of the gangway from outside yet inside its fine.

    When you close off the cab to couple units you can clip through to the second man's side as if no door was there.

    You cannot climb up through the open gangway from the tracks like we can with the 375 and 377 units.

    On stopping at Nottingham from the depot, I noticed the train was clipping through the platform. The track placement is out of gauge and the very first station I tried.

    All this in 20mins of playing. Rushed is very true here I'm sorry to say. Was this play tested?

    Hoping the improvements help it.
     
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  24. MAX1319

    MAX1319 Well-Known Member

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    I’m glad I waited and wil wait or a sale
     
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  25. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    I mean.. it clearly was, because you only need to read half of the comments on the subject from DTG/ skyhook or the beta testers like LondonMidland to know that there was an extensive list of things reported that didn't make the release build but have gone into this update.
     
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  26. carter

    carter Active Member

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    How do I get the freight services for the midland mainline?
     
  27. redlichtie#1320

    redlichtie#1320 Member

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    The impending update should include freight trains.
     
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  28. carter

    carter Active Member

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    Ok, thanks.
     
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  29. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    When the update comes out, you would need the dlcs with the 66. You also need tvl with the 31 dlc for some of the services according to some of the screenshots we got.
     
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  30. carter

    carter Active Member

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    Thanks.
     
  31. gibsonaj67

    gibsonaj67 Active Member

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    Ok Jane-skyhook what's the wor
    Morning Jane-skyhook. What's the word hummingbird ? Do you have any news or information regarding your teams progress or an update patch dropping soon ?
     
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  32. Wieczorek

    Wieczorek Active Member

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    Jane has wrote-this week is test (!)and i guess next week will patch coming.
     
  33. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    Honestly... what sort of comment even is this?
    It's helpful to no-one

    At least SHG have spent the last month or so actively trying to rectify the wrongs.
    More so than we have ever seen from any other 3rd party or DTG themselves.
     
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  34. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Maybe so but who was helped by releasing what should have been a great route well before it was better tested an more fine tuned.There would have been more people enjoying the route then being disappointed but it now.Skyhook should have insisted to DTG that they need more time to do what there doing now instead of enjoying more positive feedback there left scambling while trying to fixes issues at a rapid pace.There clearly not happy with the final product and those of us who looked forward to it where given pause in buying it by it's many issues.Anyway i'm hardly the only one who 's singled out issues or thoughts on this subject.
     
  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    How do you know that DTG forced Skyhook to release it quickly? People keep repeating this claim, maybe it is true but unless there is something to prove it then it is just an unsubstantiated rumour!

    It has happened and maybe we will end up with something even better than if they had taken longer to release the original version as the "community" might not have had such an input.
     
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  36. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    I think this has to do with the fact that it was seeming DTG which where in a mad dash to release as many routes as possible since the beginning of 2023 in what would appear to be a effort to impress there new owners with product production and skyhook got sidelined in this mess by having there (ready or not) route tossed in to increase that effort appearance of production.DTG didn't normally release that many dlc in such a short time before this year.Not to mention each one had issuse that shouldn't have been missed under normal circumstances even by there limited testing standard.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
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  37. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    It's probably because DTG are the publisher, and invariably the publisher sets the release date, never the developer, i.e. Skyhook didn't release the DLC. Which isn't to say a developer can't speak up, but ultimately the decision is made by the publisher.

    But what we don't (and won't) know are the business reasons why DTG set that release date, and in this day and age it becomes irrelevant (to the high-up business people) when you can "just patch it" later.
     
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  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    When we quote for a job at work we tell the customer the lead time. They might and quite often say we would like it by a certain date, but if it isn't possible it isn't happening, well not at great cost to the customer anyway.

    I don't know how it works in the games industry but would Skyhook have said to DTG, we are making the MML and they then said great can we have it finished by such and such a date please?

    I don't know, and frankly I don't care particularly, but all I can see is assumptions being made, which then become fact. And, obviously neither DTG or Skyhook are going to say as it is not really anything to do with us.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
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  39. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I do know how the industry usually works, and it doesn't work like your or my day job. My comment isn't assumption with regards to how the industry, and developer-publisher relationship, usually works.

    A games project will go into lockdown for a deadline, and nobody from the development studio(s) (even at director level) can usually override that, unless it is critical, i.e. the build submitted for deadline doesn't function at all. Everything else must wait for another time.

    Usually.
     
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  40. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Here's a little something to chew on about this whole set release date issues.In case you forgot several dlc's have been delayed for TSW before this problem came up and surprisingly all 3rd party dlc i believe,so isn't it rather strange skyhooks dlc which needed more time got rushed unready now,where as other times other dlc got a little extra time.
     
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  41. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Back in April, 2021, DTG first previewed Cane Creek from SHG. Two months later, the preview stream was postponed by mutual consent so that SHG could make some minor scenic corrections. Presumably DTG wasn't entirely satisfied with the build. The route was finally released a month later.

    So, apparently, no urgency, no push to get the route out before it was ready.

    ( Of course, the forum still unearthed a bunch of issues with the route, especially with the locos. Some of those problems are still unpatched. )

    Two years later, the difference between CCB and MML is remarkable.

    There was, it appears, some need to get MML out the door before it was quite ready and the feedback from the early adopters seems to be evidence of this. Unlike Cane Creek, however, DTG and Skyhook are all over the route with the promise of a comprehensive and soon- to- be- released patch/update to address the main issues.

    Quite a stark contrast between the relaxed, " take your time " release schedule of 2021 (remember the " long Summer " releases of Rush Hour) and the frenetic pace of launches and patches in Spring, 2023.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
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  42. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    The mml had already gotten delayed. The original release was supposed to be released in March but it was decided that it would be better to delay it until April.
     
  43. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Skyhook should have requested june by then they might have had this route more or less buttoned up.
     
  44. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    That's the thing: we won't know if they didn't, but the request was rejected for the publisher's business reasons.
     
  45. SeventeenF

    SeventeenF Active Member

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    People keep saying, again and again, that this route was rushed. Let me just quote this post by Jane (again):
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Let's just wait for the patch for now. It's been 9 days since the last screenshot, so they must be in the final testing stages by now.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
  46. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    No this route wasn't exactly rushed out,as much as it was released before it was fully tested and fine tuned by skyhook.DTG was on this we need to release whatever we can to impress the new owners an SKH Midland Mainland route got dragged into this rapid release schedule before SKH could finish there final work on the route.
     
  47. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say it was rushed out. I said we don't know whether or not Skyhook asked for the release date to be pushed back in response to Shino Baz, because maybe they did.

    Having said that, I think people will have different perceptions of what it means to rush things. I personally can't recall a time developers haven't been rushing to get things done when a deadline is looming. Or you could say that, in the context of Jane's post you quoted, they said it certainly wasn't rushed, it's just the work required to create the routes is intricate. Therefore someone else could respond to say Jane's statement implies it required more time to complete, therefore you might say that's an implication the release date was set too soon and therefore it was rushed out the door.

    I'm not even getting involved in that argument, though. I just came here to say that's how the industry works: deadlines are set (or shifted) by the publisher, and the developers deliver whatever they have to the deadline.
     
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  48. Southern Driver

    Southern Driver Active Member

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    All we need to concern ourselves is it’s now is which day next week the update comes through. We were told this month and there’s only a week left in it.
     
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  49. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think Jane said the intention was this month with a caveat.

    Personally I am not going to worry if it slips for a week or so, although I have next week off so it would be nice if we got it next week.
     
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  50. jane-skyhook

    jane-skyhook Well-Known Member

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    Morning All,

    We are pretty much there with the update, thank you all for your patience. Especially for your support.

    Again, this does not fix everything (still a way to go!) but there are now about 180 fixes to issues. This is without the new content, which adds a ton more to do (and some really special little features!).

    So we are wrapping up patch 1 at the tech end. I don't have the date yet for release as there is always a lot of organising and booking slots etc. The headline news is that we are handing over from tech to publishing. Still hoping for this month (but may slip a few days or so based on publishing organisation)

    I will get more images and info for you shortly on further detail.

    Myself and production are signing off on patch 1 today.

    I would like to thank my team, the beta testers and especially all of you here for all the support on this. I am really excited to get the update in to your hands. It is not the end of the road, patching will continue. Again, we have plans for the future of MML, so this is very much a live ongoing project for us.

    all the best
    Jane
     
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