I Don’t Like This Push For More ‘gameplay’.

It’s becoming very clear that TSW is going down the route of a game, not a simulator.

Before I say anything, the developers of this game and all the faces that we see on the streams have my upmost support and i respect them highly.

We have waited years upon years for the proper simulation to be added, after being promised it time and time again by DTG.

But now, it’s seemingly been cast aside to make way for all the causal gamers and all the ‘gameplay’ features to keep them happy.

Whilst I understand that it is clearly a big part of the TSW player base, I just wonder, why can’t simulation and gameplay just live alongside each other? There are plenty of people here that want the proper simulation.

In the last 24 months I could probably count on 1 hand all the new simulation features that have been added to trains, because there’s just no push for it anymore and DTG is clearly not interested in spending the time to do it.

TSW has been in development for at least 6 years, probably more like 7. In that time, we could have had far more detail in the trains we are given. But we just don’t.

What I also hate, is how the game is being sold to us. I will never get over the ‘highly detailed and authentic rail simulator’ quote. It’s just a complete lie. Other than to mislead people, why is it being sold as that? There is nothing in the game that is even close to being authentic, If you’re not interested in making it a proper simulator, stop selling it as one because it makes you look even worse.

It really does feel like a stab in the back for the loyal players that have been waiting patiently for what they want.

Anyway, that’s just my 50 cents on the situation in TSW.

 

What about the players who want to play as a guard, or a passenger, or a train spotter? I guess you don't think that those people deserve what they want?

The problem is that different people want different things from the game and whilst for many it's about driving trains and operating trains and having them BE trains being driven, there's always responses to surveys and posts on here asking how people can play together and act as a guard or do other things than drive the train.

So whilst not disagreeing that things could and possibly should be better in what I see as the core aspect of the game, which is driving the trains, I also understand that there ARE people who want to do other things. And they have been waiting patiently whilst we've been driving around...

 

TSW feels realistic enough in my experience. I'm quite happy about its level of realism.

TSW never was, and probably never will be, a pure simulator. It has always been designed as a piece of home entertainment. Software used as a hobby. DTG has had several polls and I'm pretty convinced they do listen to the majority of people.

Have you considered your opinion might actually be that of a minority?

 

Some of the stuff like collectibles is superfluous IMHO but I don’t mind the addition of a few peripheral activities to emphasise the “world” element.

 

Just.... ignore the gamer-elements and focus on the simulation?

 

As long the basic elements of making tsw a sim are not going downhill, im ok with adding tons of new features, even if i dont care guards etc.

But in the business floor we saw already how this went.
Going extra thin with timetables (ny trenton, peak forest). If casual is the future of tsw i really made the right decision of stop supporting the franchise.

I get everything on sale, what i like i play, what i dont like i havent spent 40bucks.

 

Are you also a Microsoft FS player? MSFS 2024 will also have missions outside of pure simulation so that’s the way of things at the moment

 

It seems to appeal to a lot of players (not to me though). But it's not annyoing as I can just ignore these extras.

And I prefer X-Plane over MSFS

 

As a real train driver I feel they are catering to a broad spectrum whilst keeping true to the simulation aspect.

I am enjoying TSW3 so much more than at the beginning and even got into the mastery rewards, making scenarios and trying to help others.

You can find something to complain about all day long and put it here but at the end of the day I feel DTG are doing their absolute best.

Recent routes from them and the Birmingham cross city route are amazing. Compared to a few years ago everything is so much more improved.

If you don't enjoy it then why complain about it? Find another game or simulator to enjoy.

And please don't expect every button, dial and knob to be simulated in this even though I am a real train driver and a perfectionist too. How can you simulate air conditioning? You want to connect an air con to your pc and have it replicate your train's knob set for increase cooling?

Yes headlights need to be worked on (so we can see like streetlights and platform and yard lights illuminate an area) and the team have made a statement they are dedicating this few months between May and August to fix core issues etc.

I think people have a good interest in trains yet many don't know how to drive them and that is one thing that put gamers or simmers off.

Broadening the market base can only benefit us in terms of more route development.

If you want what you want then make your own simulator and you can control every feature.


One of the most recent routes, the Midland Main Line, has been very popular and is very enjoyable. Whilst some issues were identified early on the route was quite refined. But as usual developers and DTG work hard with fixing the scenery and other things identified. One was bridges and shrubs/weeds.

 

I'm actually really looking forward to MSFS 2024, with all the new activities coming it will really make the world feel more alive.

 

Not an issue with that, just dont force it down everyone's throat, I have no interest in collectables or mastery, but I can ignore these parts of the game and it doesn't impact me completing all the scenarios and journey chapters.

Now Ive asked multiple times on live streams and in here if the guarding and photography scenarios will be included in the journey chapters and have been met with silence by DTG. If they aren't included happy days, but if they are and they're forcing players to partake in this gimmicks in order to progress and complete the Journeys then I'm voting with my wallet.

TBH its not just these gimmicks which are making people think its a game rather than a sim. Its the la la land layers being forced on everyone and passenger locos on freight trains, its every Acela stopping at Trenton, its steam locos on modern UK routes without a Speedo or AWS.

Everything combined is moving the game into a direction I have no interest in taking part in, so for now I'm on hiatus from purchasing ANY** DLC and that includes 3rd party content as well.

**Why any DLC and not just the ones affected? Well as we've seen with the idiotic Class 385 layering in on SHES since the last patch, even if I feel a route is suitably realistic then there's no guarantee its going to remain that way in the future.

 

Its blatant false advertising, nothing more nothing less.

 

Well while it may not happen very often, a few years back while they were being delivered a class 385 did actually visit Ashford depot for a short period of time.

 

A once in a lifetime during the delivery cycle before the route is set is even set doesn't justify it layering on. It adds nothing but is immersion destroying. If it was just one layer that was wrong, well fair enough but now on SHES - we've a Duplex TGV layer (never ran on HS1), ICE3M (ran 1 service), steam locos with no AWS & Speedometers. And come the 700/1 release theres no guarantee the stopping points are going to collate with the marker boards. This route is a joke now.
And dont get me started on the RHTT which is the wrong operator and doesnt even get used on HS1.

The same justification was used why the BR110 was put on freight trains in LFR, even though it was a once in blue moon event in reality.

The games gone to Teletubby Land with Tinky Winky, Dipsy, La La and Po

 

Judging by the huge turnout of younger enthusiasts at KWVR for diesel gala wanting large logo thrash, are we sure BR doesn't sell?

 

While i agree with you, that complete fantasy shouldnt find its wsy into service layers, i can live with them when they happend in real life.

At least dtg is using the routes potential. Thats a matter of taste i guess. I also think the pickup scenario on peak forest belongs into the timetable, while others probably see a scenario using only.

 

A layer toogle would keep more people happy more of the time. If they insist on stretching the realms of reality as far as they can stretch it, then atleast give us the ability to fine tune them and hide the ones we dont like.

 

While I do agree that having a layer toggle would be a good idea, I heavily disagree with your comment about Sehs becoming nothing more then a joke.

 

Totally agree on this, while the 24h is a huge improvement if not "the" improvement, dtg is using it into a very 1 Dimensional way.
Whats the problem of just releasing 2 timetables? One with all the extra layers, the other without the one time happenings.

 

I'd argue that where DTG really needs to push for more gameplay is timetables - there have been too many TSW 3 routes that have felt either too short in length, lifeless, whether from a lack of pure AI traffic (as evident with MML, BCC, E-G etc), extremely limited initial timetables (NY-Trenton; although glad to see DTG rectifying this) and/or one-loco routes that don't hardly utilise existing rolling stock in TSW for better, varied and long-term gameplay. However, having watched the Glossop stream, at least Piccadilly doesn't feel so empty - compared with New Street or Waverley - thanks to AI 323 and EMT 158 traffic so that's an improvement.

I highly disagree. With exception of SEHS Extended and the likes of Boston Sprinter - ironically both TSW 2 original routes - in my opinion I'd say most TSW 3 routes are not anywhere near improvement in terms of gameplay with many feeling lifeless with empty large stations, limited timetables and routes with mostly one train; while TOD 4 lighting has its positives and negatives, untimely TSW really does need more brilliant routes again like that of London Commuter, ECW, NTP, both Dresden routes, Koln-Aachen, and so on... Rush Hour from TSW 2 was the pinnacle of this game.

At the end of the day, TSW is still technically a video game though and it's purpose is to ultimately entertain. DTG will never have the time or resources to model or get licences for every train for said route. Thus, I don't see the problem of more layers to different routes (albeit semi/partial realistic, though not completely silly) if it means: 1. We can use more of our existing TSW loco collection (which is value for money) 2. Means we don't have more lifeless, empty routes/timetables (surely it's more unrealistic for a sim to have a large station completely empty or traffic?).

 

May as well just get rid of licensed content and real life routes and just create a make believe world, I mean its heading in that direction anyway. I mean train drivers being told to get out of the cab mid journey and take photographs.

Well it claims to be highly detailed and authentic rail simulator, and at the end of the day its failing in its purpose to entertain me to the point that I don't wish to continue investing in new DLC and content currently, and clearly I am not alone in this view..

 

One thing this game will never be is a 'highly detailed and authentic rail simulator!’ Mainly because our consoles and PC's just aren't powerful enough to run it as such. Another reason for it never being such is Microsoft flight simulator that back at the start of the 2000's was detailed enough for people to learn to fly planes good enough to be able to do 9/11

 

I agree with this. I also think that the word "gameplay" can mean many things. For me, the gameplay I seek is busier timetables with a variety of equipment and more AI interactions that challenge me as a driver. With that perspective, SEHS is currently the pinnacle of TSW for me. And I am a North American who prefers German signaling.

I recognize that there are limitations here and tradeoffs must be made in a simulator. I would love it if everything were perfect, but I will readily accept not having the absolute 100% period correct AI equipment 1 block ahead of me, whizzing by on the opposite track, or sitting in a siding as I go by. The alternative is something that, in my opinion, is far more unrealistic: an empty lifeless route where all runs are the same.

 

What specific elements is OP referring to? Me having to throw my own switches in the yards and backing up without a spotter isn’t always realistic but I understand there’s limitations on what we can reasonably expect here.

Layers… yes, we need a toggle. There’s some atrocious ones. But many are seasonal and rare, so I can get past it. WCL on the other hand, that’s fantasy land. There’s a few lazy ones, like throwing the BR 110 into primary freight service b/c they didn’t want to spend time on another freight loco. Newer stuff like the 187 and G6 layering onto older routes bothers me a bit. Not seeing the Press 155 on BRO because something else keeps subbing in drives me nuts.

But I think a lot of the fake layers are good attempts to liven up a route for true lack of alternatives. Seasonal and rare TGV, was ok by me; I couldn’t get mad at the attempt to liven up the station. Southeastern at London Vic, due to diversion- ok I understood that as well. It’s better than a dead station that should be busy.

Now, I don’t play scenarios so I don’t care if they make you dress up like a hedgehog and collect rings along the track 300kmh while dodging oncoming TGV’s… There’s literally thousands of timetable services; let me run out of those before I start complaining about a scenario here and there. They’re there but I don’t care.

Ultimately I think some folks just need to take some time away from the game in order to come back and enjoy it again. Play a game too long and you start to get into a bitter phase, every little bug starts to bother you, “they’re not listening to my feedback”, etc

 

I don't mind more "gameplay" features if they complement the driving experience, e.g. if creating an optional playable guard mode allows for something other than purely DOO with other routes later on, then I'm all for it - especially if expanded to the timetable mode.

 

I don’t find it to be pushing too much toward the game experience. If I fire up timetable mode and run some trains back and forth it feels like it is simulating an average day on a railroad. The only gamey aspect is the score/points/medal system but it’s not like it’s forcing you to pay attention or modify how you play. To me it sort of sits in the background and can easily be ignored.

 

It could have plenty of gimmicks and still be a simulator. But more gimmicks give less time to devs to simulate railway ops properly. Rigid routing is so unrealistic at larger stations but is accepted. People want to be the role of guard, maybe signaller too but is all this going to be at the expense of decent timetables and well researched layers that don't look like Hornby catalogue layout in the 90s.

 

I don't have a problem with things like collectables, I can ignore them, if it means the sim is attracting casual gamers and more customers for DTG then surely that is a good thing for all of us? I have only driven a real train once, a Prairie on the SVR so I can't say whether the driving experience is 100% authentic but it seems realistic to me and real train drivers seem to thing so too.

I don't see a denuding of realism as such although I do think the issue of layers should be addressed. Apart from WCL there are several other layers which I don't want to see, there was a class 110 with the Dostos on the Dresden route the other day which I understand would not be possible, so why do I have to see it. Please DTG look at selectable layers. I haven't seen the 385 on SEHS yet, I hope that is a mistake!

I don't see a problem with the photography scenario or the guard scenario on the new route as it is just one scenario (well two) so you don't need to play them and it might attract new players. I would like to see an option to be a guard implemented anyway. I guess though that if you do journey mode you might not want to come across them.

I am not sure where the "stabbing people in the back" statement comes from, just sound like hyperbole. However I do agree if DTG started to move away from realism and more into making the sim a game then I would be seriously looking at whether I wanted to purchase any more content, however I don't see that that is going to happen.

 

Are we being fair to call things like guard and signaler gimmicks? They’re both important to railway operations tbh.

And what evidence do we have that these features are developed at the expense of decent timetables and layers? Does the same person who works on timetables also now work on guard development?

To me, it’s a good sign for the franchise that they’re trying to improve and add features as long as they’re related to the railway.

 

And when people crtitize the game for not living up to DTG's advertising, it seems to rub some people the wrong way and try to defend things that sometimes aren't defensible

 

Well if there part of a journey chapter which needs completing in order to progress and complete the chapter, then you do need to play them if journey is part of the way you play.

 

You make a good point but you would have to ask yourself, have new people been brought in to develop these new “improvements” or are existing staff now adding this to their workload? Tbh any spare capacity they have should really go on fixing “core” issues before adding new content, just my opinion obviously.

 

Yet aren't Journeys themselves "gamey"?

 

I see them as a nice introduction into the route and helps me decide what to drive next. Given that the quick play isnt fit for purpose and just throws up broken scenario after broken scenario.

 

Personally I always found it unrealistic and immersion breaking that I couldn't be the guard on a service. There wasn't even a visible NPC one. That in and of itself is inauthentic. Different strokes for different folks, but it all falls under the umbrella of the simulation.

 

Just because another game is doing something different doesn't excuse what DTG literally advertises to players. They say their game is a "highly authentic rail simulation featuring authentic routes and trains from around the world." If a business advertises a product like that, then it is normal for a customer to expect that. It’s like if Hershey advertises a candy bar as having chocolate but doesn't actually have any chocolate. It would be normal for a customer to point that out. DTG has been doing over the last few years as the op has saying is advertising tsw as a authentic simulator. Of course it clearly isn't that but I think the real problem is that TSW has a identity crisis. It doesn't know what it wants to be.

TSW is advertised as a simulator but has things that some may find "arcadey" or "gamey". Of course at the end of the day it is just a game and I have no problems with things like collectables. If anything there can be a place for both but DTG needs to make it clear what they want the tsw franchise to be. Some have said it could mean the end of TSC during tsw's early days but that clearly isn't happening. They want tsw to be a sim but add things that contradict their advertising. Not to mention all the issues this game has.

I think the issue of unrealistic layers can be easily solved by DTG giving players the option to just turn them off. There isn't a justifiable excuse to not give players that option. But that is self inflicted by DTG themselves because they just release one dlc in a certain area and release a dlc in a different area rather than build with certain networks. Sure there is DB but the German railways are mostly operated by DB. Players are always going to want new routes in different locations, but it prevents older routes to be build on which leads to major stations being empty, or routes having unrealistic layers. I think a toggle to have layers turned on or off shouldn't be difficult to do.

I think DTG needs to figure out what they want tsw to be because it is a game with no long goal or vision. It’s just a flywheel of dlcs with features that either have problems, don't work properly or need improving. Not to mention them cutting corners and rushing products out the door to meet self imposed deadlines

 

Just because it has gamey elements which are not essential to play it that doesn't stop it being a simulator.

I don't think they are falsely advertising by saying they are producing an "authentic simulator". It is as authentic as a digital product is likely to be. I doubt the ASA are going to worry if the ballast is a slightly different colour or if trains are missing from the timetable or some station buildings or bridges aren't accurate or some sounds aren't the exact sounds.

 

TSW is not an authentic simulator. That part is pretty obvious and it's not just about buildings or color ballast. That doesn't make it a bad game per se but I still believe that DTG doesn't have a vision on what it wants it to be

 

Not sure what’s available for pc users but as a console player TSW is my only option. To be fair I find it quite decent (TSW3) and enjoy it. Obviously people with more knowledge of the railways than me may disagree, but I’d say it’s a sim. Not saying TSW3 is perfect by any means, but I feel a certain achievement taking a diesel from A to B with me at the controls.

 

Signals staying red at stations only switching to green after you've closed the passenger doors are the most striking unrealistic thing in TSW. TSC dispatcher may be rigid, but logically closer to RL.

 

I think TSW has been progressing at a decent pace over the past few years. When I play the TSW, I sometimes think about how it all started with being very buggy, glitchy, and having numerous issues with microsttuters and audio lag. Since TSW first debuted, I think it is at a good place in it's development. It definitely has room for improvement but I am overall happy with how much more stable it has gotten over the years. I definitely look forward to what TSW brings over the years. There are some aspects of it such as collectibles and rewards that I don't really care about. My main focus is to get from point A to point B and complete the objectives, just like how that is the goal with TSC scenarios. From what others, have mentioned, some of the extra gameplay features can be ignored. One of the areas that I would like to see TSW improve in would be increasing the overall distance of routes, and making them more detailed, even if that means waiting longer for DLC's to come out. Further performance improvements to mitiagte the issue with audio lag and microsttuters are definitely welcomed and further optimizing the dynamic weather system would be good. I am wondering when PS4 becomes obsolete, will TSW support be dropped. I play TSW on PC but I definitely don't want the PC ports of TSW to be held back because of console limitations.

 

I say tsw is more of a simcade to be honest. Not a bad thing of course

 

That’s a fair description. Personally, I don’t do the collectibles and don’t want to be guard etc, I just like driving the trains

 

DTG should make TSW2 and TSW3 a two player or a multiple player game where your friends can join you and ride the train with you

 

Whilst I understand points that it’s not a full 100% simulator, there are many points which still make it so. Gameplay when real is one of them, so I would have to definitely say it’s wrong to state they are straying further away from a simulator if there is an increased focus on gameplay.

Adding in a form of guard mode is a direction towards simulation, be it a guard simulation.

It’s like if they’re was a focus on graphics, making something look like the real world increasingly more, is more of a accurate simulation to me.

 

They can't do that unless they rebuild from scratch to support multiplayer

 

Can’t they isn’t it easy just to add it

 

Nothing is ever as simple as add it I’m afraid. Especially not in the depth of work required for multiplayer to function.