Whether we get TSW4 or Big 3 summer release, the UK will most likely get an AC power route that will feature the 700/0(price surprising lower than expected) as a layer and main loco would be the 700/1.As Matt would probably say when you have a 700 DC route what you need is more and a bigger 700 to show off it's A/C sounds. Now this just speculation so please take it with a grain a salt. With that said, I don't think DTG would make the 700 which has been requested for a long time, just for SEHS. I wanted to bring a discussion of the possible routes we might get if the 700 is part of the big release. Sorry WCML this is just a speculation for the 700. So we have the MML- Bedford- London Blackfriars 19 stations, 54 miles. The ECML will have to be broken up to 3 possibilities. King's Cross- Peterborough- 24 stations,76 miles. King Cross- Cambridge- 26 stations, 58.5 miles. King's Cross-Hitchin-18 stations, 32 miles. I just don't see DTG making both Peterborough and Cambridge. MML Thameslink 700/0 and 700/1 (possibly) 2 trains an hour from Bedford to Three bridges 2 trains an hour from Bedford to Brighton 2 trains an hour from Luton to Rainham 4 trains an hour from St Albans city to Sutton (loop service) 2 trains from Blackfriars to Servenoaks ( would only see at black friars as AI) Peak time trains 4 trains a day from Luton to Orpington 3 trains a day from west Hampstead to Orpington 4 trains a day from Kentish town to Orpington 4 trains a day from Bedford to East Grinstead East Midlands HST trains (we have in the game and already used in St Pancras 6 trains an hour from St Pancras. With some stopping at Luton , EM-240 TL-462 services on MML. TL-210 from ECML that go through the core, St Pancras to BlackFriars. doesn't include any freight that might be added or the railtours. Total -912 passenger services ECML So I'm not sure if the terminal station would be King's Cross, Blackfriars, or Both. So for this purpose I will include both Thameslink 700/0 and 700/1 (possibly) 2 trains an hour Cambridge-Bedford terminating at Blackfriars 2 trains an hour Peterborough- Horsham-Bedford terminating at Blackfriars 1 train an hour King's Cross to Peterborough 10 services total a day King's Cross to Lentchworth Great Northern 387(possibly) 2 trains an hour King's Cross- Ely/King's Lynn 2 trains an hour Morgate to Welwyn garden 2 trains an hour Morgate to Stevenage would only be playable to Alexandra palace 6 services total a day King's Cross- Peterborough LNER 158 services round trip from King's Cross (91's currently not in the game, 800 not in the game) Lumo 10 services round trip from King's Cross (803 currently not in the game) Grand Central 12 services round trip from King's Cross (class 180 currently not in the game) For ECML services it makes it difficult since we don't have any LNER, Lumo, or Grand Central locos and I'm not sure if DTG has the licenses but for this purpose I will include the LNER in the tally. Passenger services TL-210 ECML TL- from MML -462 services go through the core, St Pancras to BlackFriars GN-246 LNER-158 playable services-1,076 doen't include any freight that might be added or the railtours. Both routes are good and would be great additions to TSW. ECML would require a new loco for LNER and 387 would need to be modelled for Great Northern. Also, the total number of Services for TL would depend if they include the Core tunnel stations. If they don't it would reduce the number of Services to 614 and the services heading to the core from ECML would have to terminate at Finsbury park. These numbers are not 100% accurate. What you think would be the next 700 route and why
Any excuse for the ECML is good with me! I actually really want Peterborough to Doncaster or York and not London Kings Cross, but i think with the Class 700 coming soon it is gonna be much more likely to be Peterborough to London Kings Cross so it utilises the new traction. but either way it's a good shout, i 100% hope for some form of the ECML
If it's going to be modern I think MML might be slightly more interesting, certainly so far as the Home Counties are concerned a bit more scenic. Blackfriars to Bedford about the correct length for a keynote TSW route too. Kings Cross to Peterborough might be pushing it.
The LNER license is not going to be difficult to obtain at all as it is owned by Dft, same with Lumo, it’s owned by first , Grand central however…
Yea I forgot this would be set at 2019 so forgot to mentioned Hull trains which DTG does't have the license. But yea MML seems to be more likely since we already have the stock or suitable Sub to make it the route work
As I said in my suggestion (sorry that I keep bringing this up) the MML would make much more sense and you would only need a Class 700/1 and Class 222 as a new train. Maybe we could layer in the Class 37, Class 465 and Class 395. MML makes the most sense to add.
Interesting to see if DTG can get licenses from First since I’ve heard rumours they’ve lost their license for future GWR routes/locos.
First own avanti WC and we still have it in the game, the only real difficulty is grand central, who are essentially the most insignificant operator on the ECML, because GC is owned by Arriva
From Peterborough to Hitchin is 44 miles with 5 stations in between. That's a lot of track and scenerary for 66 total services from Thameslink and Great northern trains. LNER services can't be counted until DTG gets the license and since they don't have it don't see them making the 91 or 800 until then. Our expectations have to be realistic. I know we all want ECML ,but need to go with what DTG has currently available. With that said ,that leaves Thameslink 700/0,700/1 possibly and Great northern 387 possibly. And you know how some in the community feel about the 387 electrostars. I on the other hand enjoy them
LNER license isn’t going to be difficult to obtain at all, and including it would add over 300-400 services, as LNER is owned by the DfT
You never know, they might actually already have an Lner license, on many occasions they haven't revealed a new license until a new route announcement is made, we didn't know they had Northern until Glossop was announced.
Both routes are good options for the 700/1 to be introduced into TSW However, if I was to give an opinion on which route the 700/1 would be introduced on, it would be the Midland Mainline: London St Pancras-Bedford route The reason why: I think the Midland Mainline needs a train which can supplement a 222 or a HST on stopping services along the route to destinations like Luton, St Albans or Bedford and with the Thameslink license already clinched, and the EMT license also already acquired, it shouldn't be too long for a London St Pancras-Bedford route to ne made As always, any thoughts or opinions are appreciated
ECML is definitely the most likely. This is mainly due to the fact that there is many (not detailed) ECML south suggestions posted every week!
Your opinion can be applied to the ECML as well… as we are unaware of what licenses DTG could be working to get; and also the ECML has more options for a 700 to run, plus we already have the GN + TL license, to make the route alive, all you would need is a LNER license, as Hull Trains and Lumo don’t run as frequently as LNER, with the latter two being much easier to add to TSW as they primarily use the same type of train, with the difference being one having diesel mode. The only loco(s) that might not come immediately are the 180 and 91 (the reason for the 180 being mentioned above) and a 91 because DTG prolly won’t add more than 3 new trains (if we are very lucky), the only advantage to DTG is that the MML south of Bedford is short, unless we get it up to Leicester
Well, yes it could but like you say, for the ECML side, you only need the LNER license for that to become a reality and I totally get your opinion and yes the MML between Bedford and St Pancras is shorter than ECML South, which makes it's chances higher of being in game but ECML South isn't off the cards however
The only thing I would add is besides St Pancras terminal for East midlands that they add the Thameslink core down to London Blackfriars since that's where drivers changes usually happen. It would be a perfect way to hand over to the AI. This run would be about 54 miles, 19 stations. Within range of DTG's range of similar routes scope so far.
I didn't know they did swaps at Blackfriars, well if we are going for realism, get the Thameslink Core in with an ATO-equipped 700/1 and add ATO to the /0 which is coming with SEHS
If DTG don’t add it I’ll be really disappointed, because it’s a highly suggested route, and might be a bit longer, but it would be a great route
Yeah, if DTG didn't add the ECML or WCML I'd be very disappointed as well as like you say, they are probably the two most requested UK routes on here
i think if we get an ecml it will simply be lner only in terms of intercity tocs on the route as they’re the only one of them all to actually stop at peterborough, and i’m sure a lot of people wouldn’t mind just lner. And of course besides intercity tocs it would just be thameslink and great northern with ai 158s at peterborough and maybe some other stuff too
Yeah, I wouldn’t mind LNER, but a hull trains/Lumo ECS would be nice, and Lumo trains call at Stevenage sometimes, and the non ECS would be AI only
I see people mentioning Bedford to St Pancras/ Blackfriars often, but I don't think that's really a show stopper of a route, worthy of being a big summer release. People say MML makes sense because the EMT HST is already there, but don't forget we already have an MTU HST, the 387, the 700 and the 313. If a 2019 timetable is used DTG could already make a very varied southern ECML without needing to make a new train. Seems like a no brainer to me, assuming they could get the licences.
Fair point. I think the 313 DSD hasn’t been fixed. 387 electrostars half of the community wants nothing to do with them. I actually like them. But I can see the negative feedback coming from the 387 on another route. If they could do a modern with the 717 I personally think would be better. It would take a lot more resources. It always comes down about time and money. But these are good discussions to have.
ECML South has a greater appeal for me being the bigger, more iconic route. If set in 2019, there would be a greater variety of trains but since then numerous parts of the route have been remodelled (most notably King's Cross platform extensions and tracks 5 & 6 through gasworks tunnel). So based on that, a 2023 version would still be welcome - after all we would still get a Class 800/801*, Class 387/1 and Class 700/1 included presumably. A Class 717 would be a suitable DLC later on, if it cannot make it into the base route. Branches such as Moorgate, Cambridge (not really a branch but a separate route) or the Thameslink core are likely too much to add onto the already hefty route size, from a development time point-of-view. Although if we were to see a Class 717, it would be interesting if DTG could experiment with scenery expansions alongside loco DLCs, i.e. a Class 717 'unlocking' access into Moorgate in a sense. *The Class 800/801 series may be tricky since you would have to choose whether to model both the bi-mode Class 800 and electric-only Class 801, both of which have 5-car and 9-car versions. At a minimum I would expect to see the 9-car Class 801 as these are the most numerous and can represent the broadest number of services. MML South would in theory only require a Class 222 as new, along with the /1 subclass of the Class 700. It's potentially the easier option of the two routes if you like. Extending down to Blackfriars via the Thameslink core would add more interest onto the route, also being set during 2019 guarantees all TOC licenses can be used, plus removes the issue of ATO in the core as this was before it became operational. Either route would be welcome, although leaning more towards the ECML. We definitely could do with another ambitious route project however, something similar in scope to the "classics" such as GWE, NTP, BML and SEHS. If rumours are true of a TSW4 this summer, dropping Gen8 consoles, then I can see things like this happening again with fewer technical limitations - thus allowing TSW to be pushed to new boundaries so-to-speak.
Great feedback AirbourneAlex. Having played the 700 earlier today it does feel that they have bigger plans for the 700, especially when it comes to showing it on one of it's AC route. For the MML set in 2019 does make sense as all TOC licenses are on hand. ECML could be set on 2019 but I would also prefer 2023. I think one of the biggest issues setting it on 2019 is the 387 electrostars. I actually like them but It seems the community is split on it. I don't think DTG would want the negative feedback. Best would be setting current day with the 717 mostly used. Either way I think both routes would be great and I can wait to see the 700 running through the core
Even if they did set the Ecml in 2023, they'd still need to include the 387 as it operates most Great Northern services in and out of King's Cross towards Cambridge. The 717's normally only operate services to Moorgate.
Good to know. I guess the community would just have to suck it up and welcome the 387 in Great northern and Gatwick express livery
They'd be idiots not to add the 387 to an ECML south. I hope DTG don't listen too hard to the "387s are evil" brigade.
Not sure why the dislike for them. 377 and 387. They were the first impression that actually got me into TSC and TSW. But I see the community seems to like the BML timetable but not the trains. I actually drive then on TSC from ELY/King's Lynn on Great Northern 387 to King's Cross.......lovely trip
My only guess is that they’re generic, cookie cutter EMU’s. Unfortunately for them, most electrified routes in and around London have electostars.
As much as I would want ECML, it would just be plain empty. If you want to make it feel realistic and actually lively, we would need to get the LNER, Hull Trains, Grand Central and Lumo licenses. While we have the GTR licenses which would be good for having Great Northern and Thameslink. We can't get Hull Trains because FirstGroup won't give Dovetail the licenses, except for GWR and one other. I don't know about Arriva giving us GC, and Lumo... I don't know. Maybe we could get LNER as it's a government ran operator. But it would still be empty.
They are just not as iconic or pleasant sounding as the earlier EMU's - the CIG's, VEP's and CEP's. Though, little known thought - only the 4 CEP's had powered driving cars, the CIG's and VEP's had unpowered driving trailer cars on either end - the powered car was a MBSO inside the four car formation. So despite our craving for them, technically the CIG's and VEP's would have little or no traction thrash audible from the cab (only the CEP) unlike the Electrostars which have distributed power on 3 out of the 4 cars including both driving cars. So be careful what we wish for!
First group owns avanti wc, avanti was only recently added on to LD, Lumo is owned by first group as well… the ECML won’t be empty if grand central gets missed out, because you are forgetting just how many services LNER take up, even if only LNER gets added, the timetable will almost be as busy as BML, not to mention the other services getting added, it would just be about the same size (timetable wise) as BML
Even with just the Lner license for intercity trains on the Ecml I doubt the route would feel empty as Lner operate the vast majority of the intercity services along the route.
The BML timetable has about 4800 total services. But for this case we will only count services in and out of London Victoria which has around 1168 . Even If they add all the available services on ECML- From King's Cross it would be around 628 total services. LNER 158 weekly total services total, TL-210 ECML,GN-246,Lumo10 services round trip, Grand central 12 services round trip from King's Cross, 14 hull has 14 round trips from King's Cross Below is the current timetable for LNER so you can see for yourself https://www.lner.co.uk/globalassets/catering/lner_may-december_2023_timetable_guide_web2.pdf
You are forgetting the Moorgate and TL core trains, add those on and see the number double, don’t forget the AI trains at pbro as well
Actually I included them. The only numbers I didn't include was the Thameslink MML trains going through the core which add to 462 services. But below are the number broken down into more details Great Northern 387(possibly) 2 trains an hour King's Cross- Ely/King's Lynn 2 trains an hour Morgate to Welwyn garden 2 trains an hour Morgate to Stevenage would only be playable to Alexandra palace 6 services total a day King's Cross- Peterborough[/QUOTE]I Thameslink-From ECML to the Core amount 128 passenger services 2 trains an hour Cambridge-Bedford terminating at Blackfriars 2 trains an hour Peterborough- Horsham-Bedford terminating at Blackfriars TL to king's Cross amount to 50 services daily 1 train an hour King's Cross to Peterborough 10 services total a day King's Cross to Lentchworth MML Thameslink services going throught the core 462 services 2 trains an hour from Bedford to Three bridges 2 trains an hour from Bedford to Brighton 2 trains an hour from Luton to Rainham 4 trains an hour from St Albans city to Sutton (loop service) 2 trains from Blackfriars to Servenoaks ( would only see at black friars as AI) Peak time trains 4 trains a day from Luton to Orpington 3 trains a day from west Hampstead to Orpington 4 trains a day from Kentish town to Orpington 4 trains a day from Bedford to East Grinstead[/QUOTE]
For the 387, what about the slow Cambridge, and the Peterboro services, as well as the pboro - Horsham, Cambridge - Brighton, all of those alone would at least make London-Pbro 800-900 services
