Petition For An Apology From Dtg As Well As A Pledge For More Transparency In The Future

I can do that- give me a second..

 

And besides the 64 bit version a couple of years ago, TS Classic updates where always really minor stuff ... I remember it beeing a new UI and new menu music most years. It was nothing like the changes from TSW 2 to 3 or 3 to 4.

 

Yes that is true, the only major changes I can think of for TSC are the 64bit and when it went from Railworks to TSX.

 

When you are this passionate about this game you should already know this company by now. Sometimes they promise things that will not happen. But the examples I've seen so far show they at least tried hard. Best example for me is BML. They have this idea, they create it, stumble into problems and it will take a very long time to fix it which is annoying. But it ain't vapourware. It's just a lot of patience demanded from userbase. Lack of patience is the real problem I see here.

I remember buying GWE in TSW 2 and I was never so furious about a DLC I bought as then. It felt totally broken. A few months ago I discovered they fixed that route and it's now worth the price I paid for it. Sure I'm a bit angry it took this long but that's just how DTG rolls. I have to live with that.

 

For me the illuminating moment came when I started to unpack a single throwaway sentence about portals for ai. It was in a conversation ostensibly about the editor, but it was a nudge in my understanding. The fact it occurred during a conversation about the editor is not insignificant if you think in the context of effective communication.

The way I understand it (and anyone who has a good grasp feel free to jump in and provide a better explanation), is that portals for ai cannot be applied retrospectively to TSW3 etc as the core code is such that doing so will break a whole bunch of stuff, far more than is realistic or practical to then fix.

I think thats why such functionality will only be available for new routes going forward. Old routes will still play on TSW4 (in itself quite remarkable) but the new functionality cannot be applied to them. (this is also a good reason why I might hold off until a route I want becomes available as I have not yet seen a logical reason or advantage to linking my TSW3 routes to TSW4).

This functionality significantly increases the operational flexibility of the product. I think on a basic level in terms of density of traffic, movement within areas of maps etc etc, especially when the editor/scenario planner is applied. There might be more but I lack the technical competence to know.

This is just one aspect Ive chosen to lean upon but my understanding of this is very much embryonic. Its for this reason that I wish and hope that DTG can provide a much more detailed technical breakdown so that this messaging can then filter through the community. This would then become a strength, rather than the hindrance it currently is.

 

Ok, so, firstly, I think I get most of what you mean there and I'm sympathetic to your argument, thank you for taking the time.

First, let me acknowledge that I don't think the upgrades to TSW4 are bad or anything like that. I'm definitely seeing things I like, including this what you explained here, which I remember Matt saying, but only understood it as a feature that was supposedly nice for ease of development, but not something that would actually make a noticable difference when playing.

This does give me actual reason to think, unlike the uncritical dogpile before.
Could you elaborate a bit though on how you think, when booting up a service, the experience will genuinely differ from TSW3 enough?
While I do think this is a pretty good development, it doesn't yet, to me at least, justify releasing it as a full new game, even if I understand perfectly well it's a pretty core mechanic change that requires a lot of the basegame to reinstall.

The thing I would actually point to as a better example, if I understood it right at least, is their more detailed distant terrain rendering, and so I'm happy to see the pics from Vorarlbahn with what seems like a proper mountaintop, instead of those runescape peaks from Rivet's Arosa Line.

Still that doesn't take away though that DTG should've made the case for why TSW4 is a radically different game over TSW3 right from the start, and should've addressed how they recognize it's not an ideal situation they're putting the community in. Instead of gloating on the tiny and more marginal parts of the update over the big picture. Though I guess that's also just how Matt is (not a critique of him, to be clear)

 

So, I do understand DTG, and I appreciate them for all their flaws. But as someone who is passionate about this game and wants to see it succeed. I will call out when I see things I view as problematic because I want to see DTG and TSW succeed.

For me personally, I will get TSW4, and I will enjoy further support for the game. But that doesn't mean I won't speak out over the fact that the way DTG has gone about doing this has really rubbed me in entirely the wrong way.

 

What is the point of an apology? They have been doing nothing but apologizing since TSW2 released. "We could to better", "We want to be more transparent", etc, we have heard it all. Yet the situation never changes.

 

I think the key takeaway in the short term, or at least an important one, is this.

"Still that doesn't take away though that DTG should've made the case for why TSW4 is a radically different game over TSW3 right from the start"

Learning can be painful, productive, forced upon you, voluntary and many other shades besides. One hopes they have the necessary capability for reflection to seize the more positive avenues.

 

Now I'm totally confused. I'm sorry I don't wanna be offensive in any way. You decide what you do but I was really not expecting you to buy TSW4 and I don't really get why you are buying it? Well I do get it. You like this game but it does not rhyme with wanting an apology. But you be you and I be me.

 

Apologies won't change anything. They will continue their policy, but now they will apologize to each new version. Will it make you feel better?

 

No that's fine. Responding this is way not offensive. You're not invalidating how other people feel right now, which other people on here have been. It's only problematic when you start arguing that people are wrong for feeling the way they do. You're not wrong in feeling how you do, and neither am I.

Of course in this specific instance for my personal reasoning I can only speak for myself and myself alone, but here goes (lengthy explanation ahead. It's a trademark thing of mine, always has been).

The reason I will buy TSW4 is because I do genuinely love TSW, and it's both my hobby and my escape, as well as to some degree for me personally to still live my dream, which has always been to be a train driver, which unfortunately I've not been able to realize.
In that regard TSW has been the closest thing to be able to scratch that itch (and why I'm very much hoping both for VR and for Dutch content), unlike TSC (still a good game though) because that actual 1st person perspective really makes a difference there. Whereas TSC is closer to 2nd person perspective as you are the train and not the person, free to walk around in the train and all that.
There is SimRail, of course, but I just don't get along that well with that interface I feel like and Poland doesn't speak to me at the same level as what's available in TSW.

So for me, to retain support for TSW, as well as to keep hope of ever seeing something I really really want, there really is no alternative to support. And I don't have the resources, infrastructure or the knowledge and skillset to be able to play any part in delivering for that content myself.
So I'm left to wait for others who might and hope they finally will, like Christrains and CoHa, and the community that made TSC's Hart van Nederland route, built by the community. (really good route, if you have the assets needed for it in TSC. 10/10 would recommend)

Why I'm asking for an apology is because while for me, I'm still gonna get TSW4, that doesn't mean I endorse the business practices or think this is a fair deal, even if it works for me. And I'm feeling hurt by DTG basically forcing a deal and charging for core updates that I do not see fully warranting a full new release over.
Luckily for me I think Vorarlbahn seems quite interesting, and Antelope Valley doesn't sound bad either, but if it wasn't for that, it feels like essentially having to rebuy a game I already own that's not substantially different than its predecessor, for new features that have long been promised already in the first place.

And also the reason I'm asking for an apology is because I feel like DTG has not properly addressed any of the concerns a not insignificant part of the community is feeling, while the line of communication back and forth should be a lot healthier.
That's what a community manager is for, but right now they're not responding to the concerns of the community, even if not all of the community agrees with those concerns. They still should be addressed.

Doing what they did is one thing, but doing it without acknowledging the position it puts some people in is another, and worse.

 

Also, to give you a better picture of what kind of person I am.
I'm that annoying guy that will still go on strike with you even if I personally have nothing to complain about
(edit: Not saying I don't have anything to complain about here. But just because something works for me, doesn't mean it works for everyone. And I'm not gonna let something slide just because I happen to not be affected by it personally this time)

 

Agreed.
Don't get me wrong. I'm hoping TSW4 will genuinely succeed and be that which TSW was always meant to be, eventually (even if I know better than that)
But also, DTG should realize that with the current cost-of-living crisis, with these practices, they're pricing a lot of people out of what could be one of their ways to escape from the terrible realities of the times we're living in.
They should at the very least be sympathetic to people for that

 

Been probably mentioned many times, but I feel the amount of anger and frustration was easily avoidable.There were so many promises of fixes and patches to existing routes. I was so shocked to learn how the SEHS updates for example are now seemingly only for TSW4 when a month or so ago, you would not have any inkling that it was the case. Are there genuinely any technical reasons as to why adding stop markers is now suddenly not possible on TSW3? DTG clearly knew when TSW4 was coming. It would have been planned so far ahead of time.

I think most players just wanted DTG to commit to bug fixing and polish up current content before launching a "new" title. And most definitely not paywall bug fixes behind the new game. If mainstream gaming media were to catch a whiff of this practice....

It isnt about the value of the whole package (three routes+locos), nor the new features that are riling up a portion of the community. It is the simple fact that promised fixes and additions are now basically unavailable if you dont spend more money.

 

But really it's not a UE thing. It's poor developer optimization. They keep telling you it's UE and sure, feel free to believe them. But it's the only game I have ever seen running UE that performs this poorly. If this was a widespread issue you'd have heard about it in every game review or wherever else when a UE game was releases. TSW3 (and now 4) is the exception, not the rule. Heck, I can even point to TSW2 and show that stutters are not the norm. They happen far far less frequently in their own previous version.

 

The stutter being a UE thing I learned from the community. Are you telling me I can't trust the community anymore?
Sounds like I should only be listening to what DTG tells me I guess.

I demand an apology from the community for all the lies they told me

 

I think you should. Let these people point you to a single other game that is running in UE4 this poorly as evidence. And at the same time they could explain to you why TSW2 ran far far better than TSW3.

 

I don't know anything about UE. It was pointed out here on the forum by people that sounded knowledgeable about game developing that stutters are a UE thing. If you say it's not I'm not gonna argue with you as I myself am not familiar with the workings of UE. Just parroting what's been said multiple times by people whom I suspect to know more about the subject than me.

 

As evidenced by the fact that all old TSC content will still run without re-downloading (well, except for AP stuff, but that's intentional)

 

A point you continue to assert after a year and it's no less bullshit today than it was a year ago.

 

Um, anyone else seeing the logical disjunct?

 

And here I thought DLC Weather-gate was the lowest point on these forums.

 

It's fine if you wish to ignore facts. I choose not to live in la la land.

 

Stop being rude to people who want to see this game better. If you have no bugs and everything is fine - sit back and enjoy the process, create laudatory topics or whatever you usually do there.
People want to play the better version of TSW, but for now they get the same version with the condition of buying it annually.

 

Totally agree but we don't have to agree with people wanting to make the game worse. What is preferred by some does not always align with what makes a game interesting for others. People have the right to be upset about people wanting to steer their favourite game in the "wrong" direction. People can also be vocal about that and and being called a shill for a company or paid spokesperson as some do doesn't help the discussion either.

 

The only la-la land is the one where your made-up "facts" appear real. TSW3, on PC/Steam, runs exactly the same as 2 did. Better, in the case of London-Brighton.

 

You are wasting your time arguing with someone who uses the word "fanboy". To me that is normally a cue to ignore them.

I also find TSW3 runs better on my PC.

 

Sigh.. you claim to have heard me for a year now? Clean out your ears then (or your eyes). TSW3+ content runs worse. TSW2 things are just the same. I'll repeat this again in a few months when you pretend to have heard me loud and clear before.

 

The obvious answer is that the time and expense put into development of the new and improved features made it unfeasible to give it away, and also that the scope of the changes put the upgrade beyond a simple patch. Do TSC's free updates, which keep getting brought up, require all the DLC to be recooked and redownloaded?

 

I suspect that the legal people would tell you TSW is the game and 2020/2/3/4 are just different versions of the same game. They are only supporting the latest version of the game, but its still the same game. That way when you complain the fixes never came to TSW2 they would say they were released and they fixed the issues, just not in that version of the game. That TSW4 is the same game, just a different version.

Ironically, this is the exact opposite to the people saying that it should be paid because it is a different game. Even DTG don't agree with that. This is why older base versions are pulled from sale, there is only ever one base version being sold, and that is the latest version and the only one being supported.

There is no justification for the version increment being a paywall point, it just is. They can afford to do so and the value in the packs is enough to get most people to tag along. I suspect there aren't enough people willing to vote with their wallets to make them change their stance on this.

 

Goodness, that's exorbitant. I guess I'll stop complaining about the sales tax on game purchases over here.

TSW4 cost me $52.99 on Steam. Plus $3.81 sales tax, a little bit north of 7%.

 

I don't get this analogy. When there were no digital sales and you bought disks; when a new version came out the publisher didn't keep printing the older version. Those disks went to the sales bin and once those were sold out you could only find them used.

Not gonna use the argument "and there was no patch support whatsoever" but when a new game drops why would it be wrong to delist them? It makes a lot of sense anyway. If you remember what a mess TSW2 was with its awful looking route picker (sorry DTG; I know also that was a lot of work back then) you wouldn't want new customers to get that version as an introduction to TSW in 2023. You still need to sell those people locos and new routes and those new TSW2ers might be more hesitant to spend a dime on TSW not the least having to explain every time on the forums why they better upgrade to TSW4 because .... It's a business.

 

Im not saying you are wrong in your personal experiences and Ive no idea what hardware you are running but thats definately not my experience on a mid range gaming laptop which is now 2 1/2 years or so old.

 

Again, wrong. The only exception there is Niddertalbahn, but that clearly is a function of the high foliage density and high use of custom assets, not the version.

------------------
Also, if you are ruling out all TSW2 content, then you really can't make an apples to apples comparison.

 

@OP

I won't address whether they should or should not apologise in this post, but what you are requesting is at best unrealistic, and at worst downright fanciful.

Any large business these days that is perceived to have done something so wrong that negative publicity is generated and feels like an apology or explanation or statement is warranted and put out in public, has to go through so many hoops of approval both at the higher/highest levels of leadership within the business, but also through legal analysis whether internal to the company or their appointed lawyers to ensure that the statement issued will not cause further harm. This is done such that fallout to the business, both publicity wise and financially (due to potential claims through courts) is kept to the perceived (from the viewpoint of the business) an asbolute minimum

DTG are not going to issue any further form of apology or contrition publicly to you or anyone else simply because (with the greatest of respect) you are not important enough, and the 40-50 odd people who may have voted or commented in favour, are entirely insignificant in the grand scheme of things, in terms of consumers of their product

Does that invalidate your points? No. Does it mean they won't pay attention to the points raised? Again, no. But posting an emotive and objectively absurd request for a petition (in the context of the above) is absolutely the wrong way to go about it

 

Dovetail do not have to make an apology for anything..... full stop.
You however have the right to request one for an obscure reason that you are not happy at Dovetail with
Will you get one?
Probably not as there's nothing to apologise for.
Dovetail are a business. The key to making that business successful is to create a product that sells.
People were the same with TSW 3 last year then they ended up buying it. People will be the same as next year with the new TSW* and will still end up buying it.

However the decision to buy it is down to you and you alone. Whether you do or don't personally I and possibly a few others on here couldn't care less. It's your decision no one else's.

I feel the need for these polls are not warranted and personally speaking should be disabled.

 

Can we get this thread locked down? It's just useless and kinda insulting to dtg and the work you guys have made. I'd rather no more Devs have to read this.

 

Hey, fanboys, do anyone comes to your praising topics with rational proposal "Can we get this thread locked down? I'd rather no more Players have to read this"?

 

Completely bizarre. The consumer response to TSW4, whether good or bad, will be shown in the receipts.

 

Another pointless thread/poll

if you don’t like the way DTG does business, don’t get involved. Don’t buy the game. Invest your energy in challenging them not with words, but actions: Why not develop your own train sim type game, which can be better, cheaper and fairer. Plus it can have all the things that YOU want OP. No if’s, no but’s.

Then there will be no need for another pointless bloody thread and poll

 

Yeah so, I have before in this thread explained my reasons for making this post.
I have no realistic expectation of this post ever being acknowledged by any official sources.

Specifically, the purpose of this post and poll where to;

1) Vent anger and frustration which I have every right to do, no matter how many of the uncritical fanboys come out of the woodworks to tell me in bad faith I'm wrong for feeling the way I do and just shouldn't complain.

2) To send a signal of discontent and show that this is felt by a not insignificant amount of people within the fanbase.
What DTG do with this is their business. Of course there's a corporate board above the devs that won't care. But if no signal is given whatsoever, and you just disengage quietly like a lot of the responses on her seem to suggest I do, chances are less likely there'll even be that voice of restraint in the boardroom next time.

 

If you hate this game so much get off the train sim world forums. These sorts posts are utterly pointless and are hurtful towards the Devs who spent tons and tons of hours making this game.

 

For my feelings on this game and the devs I would suggest you read the post as well as my earlier explanations on my exact feelings on this game and the devs.
If you did you'd know that I care a great deal about the game and about the devs and that's precisely why I made this post in the first place.
If I wasn't invested in them and the game I wouldn't have made a post calling them out in the first place.

 

I’m no fan boy.

It’s still a pointless poll and I’m not voting, since you don’t have an option for “I have no idea what the OP’s issue is or why he would start this ridiculous poll”

 

Ok, so, that's a valid opinion.
The vote for that as far as I'm concerned is already included though through simply not participating.

As for what my issue is. I have explained it a few times already.
If you'd like, which part of it would you like for me to explain to you?

 

The part where you call us fanboys. I did not want to reply on that original post but as someone else did and you did not address this, an apology would be nice as also I felt insulted by that.

Maybe we should start apologising to each other for all the misunderstandings on the forum

So already my apologies for again being so harsh on you

 

First off I've got to say that I'm really looking forward to tsw4 purely for the "Free Roam" ability,
I do however agree basically with the original poster and I think there wouldn't have been an issue if tsw3 didn't exist,
The release of tsw3 (and relatively resent too) is what sticks in many player craw,
If it had gone straight from tsw2 to tsw4 that would have been a substantial enough upgrade to warrant a totally new release.

 

Yeah, so, first off, if you genuinely do feel insulted by my comments, while they were not really aimed at you, I would sincerely apologize and it is nor was my intention to hurt anyone's specific feelings here.

To elaborate on what I meant.
You can, of course, disagree with the premise of the post and poll and voice that as you'd like and post your opinions on this, as long as;
-It's done in good faith.
-It's done in an informed manner (having made yourself aware of the basic arguments made instead of the many "You just want free stuff" comments this has gotten, to name just one example)
And most importantly for civil discussion:
-You do not invalidate the way other people experience things and their right to voice it.

If you just don't agree, that's fine.
If you voice your disagreement in a way that, for example sunscreen#8305 , FredElliott or antony.henley I respect that, even if we don't necessarily agree.

If however, you just come in here complaining about the existence of the topic of me voicing disagreement in the first place, and just call for this thread to be locked down and tell me that supposedly I just "hate the game ands devs so much" just because I'm speaking out against something, than no, that is not a respectable way to engage, and that is mainly what I was referring to with "uncritical fanboys".

A bit harsh? Sure. Could I have been more respectful and well mannered about it? Probably, and probably I should've.
But that doesn't change that it's not a proper way to engage in good faith argument.

 

Agreed.
The changes from TSW2 to 4, while probably for my personal standards not yet quite enough, would've still been a lot better already to actually justify it.
Even if just for the fact that it'd have meant more than a single full year of actual continued support for a not season-oriented game like sports game are.