I get stopped by a 500 hz magnet about 1 km south of Hagen Hbf whenever I do eastbound regional passenger services from Wuppertal - Hagen. I’m tempted to report it as bug, but I hesitate as I’m no PZB expert. However, this 500 hz magnet triggers despite driving under the upcoming speed limit and there’s semmingly no 1000 hz magnet prior to it. I believe the signal immediately ahead is yellow, but I don’t even get a chance to acknowledge it because the 500 hz magnet always forces my train to a halt just before that signal. What’s going on there?
Standard part of PZB: not all 500s are placed between Vorsignal and Hauptsignal. Some are there as straightforward speed checks. This one is protecting the upcoming 30km/h speed zone. You need to decelerate harder and be going slower when you pass that 500, or it will nail you (treat it like a British TPWS loop).
Slowing down a bit more helped. I’m surprised the 500 hz magnet is necessary in that spot though. It actives ahead of a 70 km/h restriction. Further ahead it drops to 50 km/h and then 40 km/h leading into the stop at Hagen.
Do you get a warning of a 500Hz magnet? On Mein Spessart Bahn, I can't figure out why I get a sudden speed reduction demand to 48kph (I'm doing maybe 76kph) giving me a penalty when I hit a 500hz magnet 1.2km out of Germunden! ROFL!! I suppose you need to know where the 500hz magnets are ROFL! Or would a signal provide a hint?
I'm currently trying to complete the journey mode on HRR. There are some BR422 services S3 Essen Steele East to Mulheim Styrum. The service starts in a 100kph zone, and the next warning in the HUD is 80kph in 1.2km, so I start accelerating out of the station, only to quickly encounter a 40kph warning. This gives me a 1000Hz restricted magnet (45kph limit), which tripped me a few times. As soon as I ack the magnet, it triggers the emergency brake, giving me no time to drop below 45kph. As luck would have it, there's no 40kph zone anyway. If you approach the magnet under 45kph, ack it, and continue on, there's a 80kph warning (same as the one in the HUD), so I never enter a 40 zone. You just have to know where the magnets are, route learning etc.
500 Hz are usually placed 250 meters ahead of main signal, and are active when the the main signal shows Stop, but also when the main signal allows driving on speeds lower than 40 km/h. In Hagen typically the entry signal can be showing 30 km/h, which asides of the "drive slowly to junctions" tells the driver to expect signal showing Stop on shorter than usual distance, for example in the middle of the platform. Active 500 Hz enforces 65 km/h at point of passing and 45 km/h after 153 meters for PZB-O (passenger and express freight) trains, 50 km/h at point of passing and 35 km/h after 153 meters for PZB-M freight trains, and 40 km/h at point of passing and 25 km/h after 153 meters for PZB-U heavy freight trains. The idea here is to ensure you are approaching the stop signal at such speed that you can safely stop before it, hence the slower speeds the more heavy (or otherwise worse braking) train you have. If you previously passed 1000 Hz at distant signal warning you about restrictive aspect and used PZB Release button, passing active 500 Hz will trigger penalty braking at any speed, because you had no business releasing when the signal is still restrictive. Note that the speed limit enforced by game does not correspond to reality and the signals, as the lower track speed is technically set only for the junctions themselves in the game, while in reality, you are required to go by the signalled speed ever since passing the signal showing them.
So I had a distant signal like this which really means I need to reduce to 40kph. I got a penalty again the next station east from Aschaffenburg Hbf about 1.6km-2km west of Hösbach. In other words I need to know the exact signal locations and even though I can do 160kph it may be better to do a slower speed? It would be a bit rough for passengers for doing sudden braking a lot LOL And what does it mean when the blue 85 is flashing to 70 and back to 85?
While driving under PZB you are expected to start adjusting your speed to the target speed limit marked by the signal as soon as you see it. In your example, that signal says that you are expected to be running at 40 Km/h at the next signal. Does that mean that you can wait until you are 300m away from the next signal to start reducing your speed? No. You should start reducing your speed as soon as you see the signal, acknowledge the 1000 Hz magnet when you pass the signal, follow the deceleration curve for the 1000 Hz magnet to be under 85 Km/h in the required time and keep decelerating until you are under 40Km/h. There might be more (GPA) magnets along the way to make sure you are following a deceleration curve compatible with being under 40 Km/h when you reach the next signal. Not failing the first 1000 Hz magnet brake curve test is just passing the first check. The flashing 85/70 lights mean you are in restricted mode. You need to be below 45 Km/h until it stops flashing or until you see a clear signal (in this case you can press the PZB release button to get out of restricted mode). Tip: Dont aim for 45 Km/h, aim for 40.
In my case, the 1000 Hz magnet immediately trips the emergency brake, as soon as I acknowledge it. Even if I'm doing 45kph, it gives me no time at all to move below 45. Is this normal?
Good coaching tip. It certainly gets your attention. Yes I read some PZB material from the forums and they said 5kph below the threshold. Thank you.
On matt's original pzb stream he said that a lot of drivers keep 5kph under whist in restrictive mode just in case.
Did you PZB release from a previous magnet or from restricted mode when you shouldnt? If you PZB release and soon after find any kind of active magnet that indicates that you released when you shouldnt you will get an immediate emergency brake application.
I've already explained the whole thing, and you can try it for yourself: the 40kph is the first signal on this service. Just go to HRR Journey Mode, Select the 422, and start a S3 Essen Steele Ost to Mulheim Styrum service. As soon as you leave the station, you encounter this 40kph warning. Ack it and you get the emergency brake instantly, if you're going 45kph or above. NOTE: I released PZB when I left the station, as instructed.
Have you tried not releasing the PZB? You can only release it if there is a signal/speed limit above 60kph. As there is an upcoming speed restriction below that, simply stay in restrictive mode and don't drive faster than 40kph when leaving the station.
Now that I know about it, I go slowly, make sure I don't go above 44kph when I reach this signal, and all is fine. My point is that the signal gives no time to reduce the speed, and I found that annoying.
It is not signal that gives you no time to react. What you're experiencing has nothing to do with the speed, or acknowledging magnets. You get immediate brake application because you have released from restricted mode right before active magnet. If you release from restricted mode and then drive through the signal at 15 kph, you will still be stopped. You can only release from restricted mode, if you have at least 550 meters (at least, I think, it's 550) of track ahead WITHOUT any active magnets. If you pass over active 1000Hz or 500Hz magnet less than 550 meters after releasing, you'll be immediately stopped. So, if you see any non-green signal ahead, or any speed restriction sign, then stay in restricted mode (and below 40 kph, obviously). Only release when you know for a fact that there will be no active magnets soon.
The error is to not release the pzb. It's a easy roule, do not release until a perfect clear. This is not the case beacause you have a clear for the next block but with a reduciotion/diverging at 40kph. The restricted mode of the pzb (70 > 85 > 70 ecc ecc flashing) works in a different way. If the signal for exemple says "yellow - green with 6" you need to continue to rolling, after a short distance the restrincted pzb will be upgraded to the normal pzb supervision (you can see than just the 85 flashing and the text -> 85). This is some of the grey area of the pzb and Hp/ks/Hl signals. It works good some scenarios could be... unexpected as a train that need to run slowly even if you see the green ahead of you.
Jesus, everyone has a different opinion. But nobody can explain why there is a 40kph warning, when the HUD says "you're in a 100kph zone, and the next speed change is to 80kph in 1.4km, which after the next station".
The HUD does not contain everything the signals do. Running with safety systems in Germany means to pay attention to the route and less to the speed limits of the HUD.
Because HUD has nothing to do with PZB. HUD only shows speeds that are set up for different points on the track. You cannot rely on HUD, if you want to drive with PZB.
The HUD only shows the line speed restriction and the main aspect of the light signals. It does not warn you about the signal speed restrictions or the advanced light signals. In your example, when you start moving you see that the closest signal is showing a main aspect and an advanced aspect. The main aspect is clear but the advanced aspect is restricted to 40Km/h at the next signal (that is 300m after the first one). From a PZB point of view that means not clear, as it requires you to acknowledge the 1000Hz magnet at the first signal and staying under the speed limit. This means that you can not release from restricted mode. You can only release from restricted mode if everything is clear (with no restrictions at all, including fixed signals and advanced signals). You can't use PZB relying only on the HUD aspects and line speed restrictions. You need to learn all the german railway signals.
Thanks for this thread. I got whacked by that 500hz Hagen magnet yesterday and was wondering what it was all about. With PZB every time I think I have it figured out I get hit with the odd thing like this and wonder if it’s a bug or me not understanding something. 99% of the time it’s me.
I see what the problem is. The PZB 'helper' on the HUD is actually wrong. It says "Safe to release!" but it is not safe at all, because you are approaching an active 1000Hz magnet. The correct way to drive here would be to not release from monitoring. IRL this would not be a problem as the train wouldn't have magically spawned at that location and it would have arrived from somewhere with PZB already in its normal operating mode.
DTG has done such an amazing job, we get to feel the full force of the German safety systems! I think there are very few bugs.
Even in Australia we have repeating and distant signals. I have experience with a repeater but I think there was only one I know of. Learning the German signals is not easy for me as they tell you so much. I could be wrong but they don't have route indicators? That seems British to me. The two whit lights ground signals I experienced on a Queensland Rail Coal network and it seems the whole signaling system is German, but they still have the route indicators. They have magnets. Maybe it is fusion.... a mix of apparatus. But I never understood about the ground points signals with two white lights. I was used to the main signal and switch locks. We have ground signals that are either yellow or red (single aspect) but these exist only in shunting yards.
Sometimes the signals don't match the track speed restrictions that are picked up by the HUD. Example in Munich-Augsburg with S-Bahn service approaching Pasing from Mammendorf: you have an announced speed restriction (expect lower speed at next signal) when in fact the speed restriction is active a few meters after the signal. Here, the announcement should have happened one signal earlier but goes to show that the signals ignore track speed restrictions. Those are two completely separate systems. Ideally, they are in sync but that is not enforced in route building. In real life, you usually don't have speed monitoring beyond PZB. There are track speed limits announced separate from the signals and some are only inside the EBuLa but nothing prevents you technically from driving faster than those. Of course you are not allowed to drive faster and if you do, you get massive problems. If you refer to those in Germany, they are used for shunting and show either Sh1 (white lights) or Sh0 (red lights). If you have a dispatched route from one main signal to the next, all these signals in between will be on Sh1. But for shunting, you can lay in a route only to one of these shunting signals, blocking less of the full signal block. Slightly different are block separators inside stations. These have one white light if they are inactive and two red if you must stop. They are used to split a platform into two separate sections. They are used in Hamburg, don't know if they are represented in the game but should be. On platform 8 things are slightly different as there is a junction in the middle of the platform. Therefore, you have a main signal here for trains departing to Harburg but that signal is irrelevant if the train proceeds to Berliner Tor. Lastly, you can turn off a main signal and refer to a following main signal. That is done with one white light, the rest being dark. It is used on platform 14 in Hamburg in the direction of Harburg. Why? There is a junction which has to be protected by a main signal but most long trains stay on the main track and don't use the diverting one. Therefore, you have an additional main signal a few meters after the junction. Germany has route indicators below main signals which can show one letter. These are used in larger stations to indicate the path layed in. It allows the driver to see if the correct path is set for the train and can prevent driving in the wrong direction (does happen, after all humans make mistakes).
I can recommend you tygerways' youtube channel if you want to learn more, I really love the way how he is explaining things. German signalling allows for very complex operations, but the basic principles are not that difficult to understand. I don't know much about australian railway safety systems and signalling, but I assume it's more akin to US, where a lot of things are left to driver's knowledge, lower speeds, shunting on sight and in some ways simpler or more direct approach to things. Germany, as with rest of Europe, has extremely dense traffic that would just not work safely if left to that level of openness or simplicity. Every train movement, and that includes shunting movements within the single station and yard requires multiple ways of securing to ensure everybody's safety. You have track permissions, written orders, vast amount of signals and still rather complex safety systems like PZB above it all. But in return, basically only thing you need to know is roughly where your stations are (tip: check the book timetables in my signature), and you will get all the rest explicitly given by physical signals. All speed changes are well-marked with advance warnings, all potentially dangerous points (crossings, trackworks) on track are also signalled in advance, every signal has advance warning and carries a lot of information aside of track availability. Speed reduction by signal tells you that you will be changing tracks, H/v signals even subtly tell you if this is just a block signal, or for example entry signal to station (note that even while they all show green aspect, the position of the green light on the signal board varies). And even if you fail to notice things like a critical speed reduction (those sudden 160 -> 90 drops due to curves), there is usually PZB guarding you with speed check magnets, that adds another great layer of safety.
Yes! PZB 1000Hz monitoring is on for 1250 meters. After 700 meters you can release (yellow 1000Hz light switches off), but you mustn't run into another magnet for the remaining distance, which is 550 meters. If you do, immediate penalty brake. Btw, in Cologne there is a tricky PZB setup when you enter Hbf on the S-Bahn platform, which also made me think I got penalty braking from acknowledging a 1000Hz. You get green lights while approaching and entering the station, then halfway up the platform there's an advance signal showing expect stop, which comes with a 1000Hz magnet. Just a couple meters further there's the 500Hz magnet, as the stop signal isn't far away (at the end of the platform). So you have a split second to ack the 1000Hz, otherwise you run into the 500Hz without active 1000Hz monitoring and get a penalty brake. Due to the tight timings, I often passed the advance signal, acknowledged, and got a penalty brake. Thought the 1000Hz is broken until I discovered that the 500Hz follows almost immediately, lol
So I am on a freight 55 PZB and when it needs to be acknowledged I have to reduce speed every time to 55 kph right?
Yes. If there’s a 1000Hz monitoring, you need to get below 55km/h, even if it was triggered by a speed restriction to 70km/h for example.
Yes (make it 50, as only just touching 56 would give you penalty braking), of course if the signal shows 40 then you go only that. It does sound scary to brake that low, but you have to realize that these heavy trains are not really allowed to go very fast (and this is also not usually told in the game). PZB U only allows for 105 km/h max speed in general, but these heavy coal trains are probably having no more than 80 km/h train speed, probably even 70 km/h on hilly routes. And you have 38 seconds for slowing to 55 km/h, as opposed to 23 seconds when running as PZB O passenger train.
