Enough Is Enough!!!

Damn now I can't stop picturing Matt in a pink Darth vader helmet with bunny ears

 

We know how that ended. The only question is where to insert the torpedoes....
On that note Im off to get into the day. Play nice peeps. Remember we all actually want the same thing!

 

A Belgian route in TSW?

 

Ah yes but if you watch the sequel movies and the TV series such as Ashoka then the Empire never completely went away. And the new Alliance government wasn’t exactly peachy either.

Anyhow we are way OT here so yes, time to enjoy what’s left of the summer and tick off another day closer to Thursday!

 

Why not?! Lots of port action, countryside, delicious chocolate, classical cities..

 

And don’t forget the Belgian beer - the proper stuff, not Stella Artois, known in the UK as “Wife Beater”…

 

Nobody drinks Stella Artois in Belgium. Imagine our surprise when we found out it was called a premium beer outside of Belgium.

What you should try is Westvleteren. Brewed by monks and very limited in supply

 

I've got a magnum bottle of Chimay still to be open ... But I don't have time for that atm but I would make room for a belgian rout. Anyway the last streams haven't done anything to change my mind on tsw 4 - now I'm interested how the early bird phase is going.

 

I'm really hoping for a surprise in that department. I'm expecting the usual very bugged launch but DTG has surprised me a lot already with how they handle this launch so the unexpected could still happen and we get a launch without too many hiccups

 

For the players, that are looking forward to it I hope so too, but given the experience of the last launches even from this year, it is not likely.

 

I think the updated TSW2 artwork with the city in the background was the most pleasant TSW cover art. TS Classic's first background with the Class 390 was quite nice as well, not that it's relevant to TSW4.

 

So you are comparing artwork now? That's pure down to taste. To me the TSW2 artwork looks like it done by a student but not an art student. TSW3 looks better but still not my taste. TSW4 does look good IMO, but that's taste. But it does not proof much. It just proves I got better taste

 

Peak playership - this is measured actively on Steam DB. It shows the facts: TSC has the highest peak playership (reached 9 years ago), followed by TSW2 in close second (3 years ago). TSW3 is a very distant third. What is the pattern emerging. The Train Guy on YouTube is absolutely right - the new market is children on consoles - that's the Focus

 

I'm glad that we, the children of the consoles, are now the Focus. I like it when everything revolves around me

 

As someone who does this at the weekends my advice would be don't watch them!



Yeah it's off-topic but this thread is kind of a free-for-all now, so why not

 

But yet you live in Belgium...


Only joking!!!

 

Sorry, had to...

Really no offense!

 

Both TSW2 & 3 have good quality in their own right, for lack of a better word, but the TSW2 image has changed since I got it, it never looked like the image I posted, but looking at both side by side, the TSW3 image looks like a 720p image scaled poorly to 4k, very jagged and not clear. Again it could also be I'm still using the Xb1X old machine old guy with better taste
And yet The hope is that TSW4 will be or should be better.

 

That person in that meme: Isn't that the guy that turned the UK in an international joke?

 

His speeches were quite entertaining though, have to admit that.

 

He had a hand in it, sadly he wasn't the only one.

 

This whole TSW discourse is so funny man. On one side you have the very very anti DTG consumer who thinks DTG is worse than ea and on the other, you have the DTG fanboy whose head is so far up DTGs backside. And then you have the third group who are in the middle

 

And took TikTok with it.

 

3 years ago was peak Covid and lockdowns. ALL video games hit peaks in that period, and numbers across the industry have declined from that peak, GTA and Fortnite just as much as TSW.

And of course Train Guy's snide reference to "console children" is just more of the tired old supercilious PC Master Race LOVE we've been hearing from certain snobs and bigots for years.

 

To be fair I have already explained the player count situation earlier on this thread, which you dismissed by saying neither game had high player counts without commenting on the comparison I was trying to make.

To reiterate and to expand on my original posts on this topic, TSW2 and 3's player counts on Steam followed nearly identical patterns, with a peak immediately after release with a sharp decrease in player numbers after that.

TSW2:

TSW3:


Interestingly TSW3 had two further abnormal peaks post-launch while TSW2 never did. The last of these is down to the bundle released recently; the other I'm not sure of. Outside of peaks, TSW2 and TSW3 had similar player statistics, between 500 and 1000 players at any time.



TSW1 struggled with player numbers until the TSW2020 update came out where until TSW2 came out the game fit into the ~750 player range like the other two games. However, it is worth noting the overall player count peaks for all three games. TSW1's was on release, just under 2000 players. Interestingly you can see the game had several high peaks before average player counts started to grow; I expect this is due to bare nature of TSW in the beginning. TSW2's peak was at launch, just north of 3000 players. TSW3's was the worst launch of the series, with the launch peak being ~1600 players. However, the overall peak a few months ago was ~1700 copies sold.



TS has been having a slight decline in players however I expect it is because of a regular dip in the 'wave' of player numbers. It is worth noting that even during this dip the player count is still in the region of 1400-1500 players, roughly double TSW's average player count. This is ironic comparing your misinformed comment on page 8 which accidentally kickstarted this discussion of player numbers:

Conclusion time: It is worth noting that the 'one third for each platform' rule was a comment made years ago and may not represent how it is today. With the addition of the Epic Games Store version and DTG actually trying with the Microsoft Store version for PC (for context, CSX Heavy Haul was released on the Microsoft Store years ago alongside GWE and possibly Rapid Transit, then was abandoned) this comment has been made even more confusing. The Microsoft Store and Epic Games Store are both niche launchers for PC players, and Steam is quite rightly still on top and likely will be for a long time. I only have three games on the other two stores, Forza Motorsport 6 Apex and Minecraft on the former and KID A MNESIA on the latter. Considering the 750-player average staying the same, it is unlikely any Steam players have moved to another storefront (can't blame them) and there are few players who'd ever consider getting a PC game on Epic or MS rather than Steam unless it was on sale - when TSW2's weird Epic Games store version launched it was free, so that would bring people into the game, although as player numbers for anything other than Steam are hard to come by who knows what the player numbers are like on these platforms today.

My final conclusion then is that based on the peaks and player counts, TSW has a set number of players who are interested in the game and play it consistently, while there is a decreasing number of players buying the games at launch seemingly. Sales and bundles bring new people in but these new players are not likely to stick around as each time the player statistics return to the usual pattern. TS has many more bundles than TSW, however from my experiences with TS players these are mainly treated as DLC bundles (rather like the game itself, as the new releases are optional bundles for those who want the new routes and the updates are all free for players as it should be with TSW), which is likely the same case with TSW's few bundles. Therefore, the bundles likely have the same non-effect on the overall player numbers.

TSW does not seem to have replaced TS and is unlikely to do so in the near future, or ever, as TSW still continues to miss on features that have been standard in TS for years. While TSW undoubtedly has some very impressive aspects (the PIS system is my personal favourite), not everything stated as an advantage for TSW actually is. The graphics and scenery are inconsistent, ranging from beautiful to downright ugly and in many instances Train Simulator looks better, especially when it comes to scenery. When comparing routes in both games, more often than not the TS version has more accurate scenery (such as on SEHS). Additionally, the immersion is often stated to be better in TSW, but I am immersed in neither TS nor TSW and can barely play them for half an hour without music of a video on in the background. Meanwhile other games (proper games mind you, not simulators) are much more immersive for me such as the Portal games, KID A MNESIA (particularly its stunning How To Disappear Completely scene which is possibly my favourite part of a video game ever), GTA 4, Just Cause 3, Prison Architect and Peggle (the last one is not a joke, I love Peggle). Anyway, it is going to be very interesting seeing the player numbers of TSW4; this includes both the peaks and the averages as these will tell a very big story.

My predictions are that TSW4's launch peak will be less than TSW4's, likely not by much. The averages I expect to be the same as TSW3. It is worth noting that the negative reaction to TSW4's announcement may have a negative impact on player counts; I do not expect TSW4 to be more popular than TSW3 and certainly not TSW2.

On a final note, the message of yours this is a reply to when you say...

...is not a good way to win or take part in an argument. If you want your points to be taken seriously, you will need to try harder than that and be more professional.

 

I think you're overlooking Game Pass, which brought a substantial number of players (on PC as well as XBox)

 

Are we here to win? I'm not here to win. I registered on this forum because I noticed a lot of stuff was wrong with this game from a console user standpoint and wanted the makers of the game to know this game felt too much like a PC game. Looking at TSW 4 I think I have been taken seriously enough.

I did not come here to win. I came here to accomplish a goal. Mission almost accomplished I would say

 

That may be true, however I haven't seen any information regarding the actual number of Game Pass TSW players.

Trying to win or not, it's still a childish thing to say.

 

Well that sounds very professional. You must have won lots of arguments with that one

 

TSW won’t kill TS because of the sheer variety. You have everything you are looking for. long routes check, variety check, branches check, editor check, and the third party content creation is huge. I can assure you if TS wasn’t as flexible with content creation, everyone would have either called quits on the franchise or moved on to TSW by now

 

I don't think TSC will die just yet but as I remarked earlier in the thread it just felt flat and dated when I tried a couple of runs the other evening. I think if the decision to release the TSW editors pays off and we start to see some decent content emerge, then that could represent a threat to TSC. And if DTG can sort out steam traction properly and get more of it along with suitable routes in TSW, that will take away one of the few advantages TSC currently has.

 

Belgium is just a suburb of the Netherlands

 

Ouch. Maybe we'd better leave this one now. Anyway, I'm hardly proud of my own country right now which is going down the pipe faster than a well oiled goose poop..

 

Not forgetting the audio which I prefer in TSC. Electric EMUs from the 80s sound exactly as I remember them, and the audio in stations of the doors slamming is bang on. It does feel more authentic and less 'plasticky' somehow, even though its really showing its age without a lot of tweaking or expense put in.

 

But it had nothing to do with the pc master race nonsense. If you bothered to watch the video, he even said he hoped he was wrong on the points he made.

If you look at the way the product is marketed, it is clear that it is more geared to a more casual player to try to squeeze their wallets even more even though DTG overhype their product to make the product sound impressive and as a certain way than it really is. I know that they aren't the only company that does that but still...

Consoles do make up most of the playerbase so it does make sense to try to cater to what most players are playing on and the casual player is mostly going to be on a console. I'm not saying that a casual player isn't going to be a pc player, but many casual players would be console players due to how accessible they are

 

Also worth pointing out that tsw3 is no longer on Xbox Gamepass and tsw4 will not be on Xbox Gamepass so I wouldn't expect tsw4 to have higher player numbers on Xbox than tsw3 did since it won't be on Gamepass.

 

I really had hoped that console vs PC divide would disappear with all these PC games coming to consoles and Playstation exclusives coming to PC but I don't think that will ever happen. I do get the grievance from PC players as I do understand how aggressive this sales model looks on PC but I don't think TSW is a game we console users stole from PC players.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under te impression that TSW always was meant as a console project. That's why I don't get the hate. I would get it if TSC came to consoles and everything changed but that's not what happened I guess?

 

I’m not going to read your entire Ted Talk transcript but I will say that while steam concurrent player charts might sometimes pick up on trends, they are not a good reflection of a population for a game whose footprint extends across many timezones, platforms and installers.

Concurrent being a key word as the tsw player base is apparently very spread out across time zones.

Release day player counts are also misleading. People already have upwards of like 200gb of TSW content; less players are rushing to buy new content compared to when they had to buy into the series from scratch. TSW2 was a “buy in” period for a lot of people. For subsequent versions, people wait for better sales, for routes they like, etc.

And sans multiplayer there’s no rush to buy it with friends. I just can’t see steam charts being a good indicator of the health of TSW or TSC for that matter.

 

Without quoting too many here, as in the comments following yours in reference to consoles I do agree with you, I started playing TSW2 & 3 on my XB1X and there is the PS4 & 5, as well as the Steam deck, just the other day someone on steam posted issues with playing TSW3 on a steam deck, there are plenty of numbers that are completely shown and or represented, as well as game pass. And Microsoft just changed XB Gold to Gamepass Core, giving even more options to the XB console players.
Still, it would be interesting to see all the numbers, but I do not believe we the wepeople will get to see that much.

 

Steam obviously sees a point to them. I don't know what that is aside from the obvious..
Genuinely.

 

The steam data shows how many people play the game on steam on a daily basis. It has nothing to do with timezones or the like. Also you do have a point that players will wait for better sales or bundles which is reflected in the data for steam users hence the increases in players. Since Steam is the only game store that publicly shows how many players are playing the game on that platform, it isn't going to be a true indicator of the overall state on tsw since we don't know the player numbers on other platforms and that was clearly stated.

 

No, no it wasn’t.

The way they communicated it was coming to console lit the blue touch paper as many people thought they were hyping the editor or multiplayer as it had been promised from day 1. The subsequent announcement of a release to console went down like a bag of smashed crabs, but the fact remains that the transition to console came well after GWE was released, maybe even after Rapid Transit. IIRC the way that was hyped then announced was DTG’s first TSW related apology.

That’s not to say they didn’t have an eye on consoles when picking UE4, but it was never mentioned until the game had been out for a considerable period of time (I’m including the beta period in that as well). As you like to hate on TSC so much, it’s probably worth noting that the TSW beta was included in the purchase of TS2017 (I think, if not then ‘16) as a way to try and get PC players interested in the ‘new’ game and make the jump. Many of the features and detail levels in CSX:HH and GWE literally took 4 years to make a reappearance after the game made the transition to consoles. I think I’m right in saying that interactive engine rooms (as seen in the original CSX:HH) have never seen the light of day again.

Edited following an update regarding mods and TSW4. So far from being a console game that we’re lucky to have on PC, TSW was a PC game that came to console. Since that day, and to this one, the PC version has suffered as a consequence and that’s maybe why some PC players get narked when this false version of history gets presented as fact.

The game should absolutely be on console, but that should never have meant the PC version suffered.

 

Oops! Sorry for breaking your game.

 

They’ll fix it eventually I’m sure, but there’s gonna be an avalanche of people moaning their game crashes on day 1 because they’re trying to use incompatible mods.

 

Good point!
Matt addresses some of this in the following.post I've linked. There's another post below it in the thread worth a look too.

 

That sounds marginally more hopeful than the last thing I read. I think at that point the idea was to disable the content manager for PC.

I can’t help but feel they need to make an official announcement otherwise day 1 is going to be messy when it’s not necessary.

 

Yup, couldn't agree more. I keep on honking about this angle of their (DTG) approach and it does seem to me that there's a big uptick in engagement. Perhaps it's not wasted effort..