Finally gave this thread's OG 10:43 Crewe-Liverpool run a try, clocking it in at 51 minutes. Slightly misjudged approach into Weaver Junction, resulting in some very minor speeding over the junction, 52 in a 50, not gonna lose any sleep over that. I am however quite pleased with my braking into Lime street, save for the 600 yards where I got distracted by that damned safety valve and made a mess of my counter-steaming. Other than that I just need to be a tad more aggressive out of Crewe, a bit more reactive leaving PSRs (and more attentive, I forgot to put the inverter back forwards leaving Runcorn and counter-steamed for a good 300 yards before realizing why I was losing speed instead of gaining it). There should definitely be room for a 48 minutes run in there. Thanks to all of you for the regulator and cut-off tips. That 40/20 setting works like a charm for saving steam, occasionally reverting to 100/30, boiler pressure be damned (50%/0% dampers and open fire door), for those tough uphills.
Man Vic - Leeds - 3rd & 4th Attempts I've made two more attempts at this run in the last couple of days, with very different approaches on each. For my 3rd attempt I'd decided that I needed to be more aggressive if I was going to make it to Leeds on time. I used high regulator and cut off settings and attacked the climbs from the start. At times I ran boiler pressure down below 100 PSI and hoped that the higher speeds from the start of the climb would make up for a shortage of steam near the summit. The result was a near-identical time to my second attempt - still arriving nearly a minute late, and with unremarkable speeds achieved. Furthermore, the running was not very satisfying. I don't enjoy thrashing the loco to within an inch of its life, and I came away feeling rather dispirited, wondering whether I would ever achieve the booked time. For my 4th attempt - which I'd decided would be my last - I decided to take the opposite approach. I nursed the boiler in the early stages of each climb, doing whatever it took to keep boiler pressure high (over 200 PSI), and only allowing it to drop in one final effort approaching the summit. Even then, I never allowed it below 125 PSI, and usually not below 150 PSI. What I found was that acceleration on the starts and in the early stages of the climbs was only marginally slower using much lower cut-offs and positions on the regulator, and the higher boiler pressure paid off on the final section to the summit, and in accelerating once over the top. I also found the run much more enjoyable. Most of the climbing was around 40% regulator and 20% cut-off, but at times I even found I had to go as low as 35% regulator and 18% cut-off to stop the boiler pressure dropping below 200 PSI. Once it stabilised, I found I could give it a bit more, but not too much. Compared to the previous run, I dropped a few seconds to Miles Platting, but passed there with much higher boiler pressure, and therefore got the time back on the longer climb to Ashton, getting into Stalybridge 20 seconds earlier. My climb to Standedge was nearly half a minute quicker, and higher boiler pressure at the summit gave me a much higher speed through the tunnel (54mph max) before braking for the PSR through Marsden. The result was that by Huddersfield I was 1 min 50 secs better than the previous attempt, and feeling confident. The run from there to Dewsbury was comparable, but I made a rather slow approach and lost a little time. However, applying the same approach on the climb from there got me into Morley Tunnel at 32mph (compared to 30mph on the previous attempt) and with much more steam left I accelerated to 50mph well before Morley (whereas on the previous run I could only get to 46mph through Morley). This saved me further time, and I rolled down the platform in Leeds, coming to a stand at 07:29:32 - over 2 minutes better than my previous best, and one-and-a-half minutes early against schedule. This will probably be my last attempt at Man Vic - Leeds. I'll look up a suitable real-life schedule for Leeds - Man Vic, and share it here. I look forward to seeing what the Jubilee makes of the grades in the opposite direction. The climb out of Huddersfield to Standedge is decidedly steeper than the one on the other side from Stalybridge - close to 1 in 100 the whole way, and a mile longer. Leeds to Morley Tunnel looks no walk in the park either. It's going to be fun.
Great run fourth time round mate, a very interesting approach which seems to have done the trick, I suppose aggression wasn't the solution after all. Some Leeds to Man Vic timings would certainly give a very interesting challenge.
I had a crack at the Manchester to Leeds run with the Jubilee + 7 mk1's with only 25% front dampers. My scenario time started at 09:15 but I will change the times to 06:15 to allow you to compare with the other runs. I don't have TSW4 so I can't use free roam sadly. Started off quickly enough from Manchester but struggled slightly on the climb to Miles Platting. I could only attain around 22mph before scrambling over the top at a mere 12mph. I could of given it more but I knew the climb continues afterwards and I wanted to keep pressure up. Using roughly the same combinations of throttle and reverser but perhaps being a little less aggressive, I could manage to hit 50mph but I was struggling until Ashton and lost a bit of speed. I then let it rip before Stalybridge and found that I really could of been more aggressive as I was having no trouble at all climbing to Stalybridge. My wheels stopped at Stalybridge 4.5 minutes late at 06:33:32 and after a minute I started on the next climb. I hit the hill hard but not hard enough to lose too much steam. This may have affected my time and I think next time I'll try to get as much speed as possible then cling on to that. As Matt said, every second at a higher speed is gaining time over a slower speed as long as you can hold it. Hit the summit easily enough and managed around 52mph in the tunnel before slowing down. Feathering the brakes gently and then slamming them on for Huddersfield, we pulled in and stopped at 07:03:42. Unfortunately I was now almost 7 minutes late. Now for the fun bit as I used everything to get me up to 65mph before slowing for the 50 PSR on the underpass. Overcooked the brakes slightly which meant I went down to 47mph instead of 50 but it was easy enough to regain that and the downhill 4 track section helped get the steam back up for a short sprint to Dewsbury. Arrived at Dewsbury at 07:15:38 ( Only 4.5 minutes late now) and used the minute to gain as much steam as possible with my blower. Got off to a nice start and hit the summit in the tunnel at 37mph. The run down the hill was simple enough with some strong braking to get me into Leeds at 07:34:54. Basically 4 minutes behind schedule. I was pleased with this for a first run but as said before the key seems to be getting some early speed on the gradients. Its just very hard to know whens best to hold your speed or keep pushing and risk seriously struggling for steam pressure. The long 10mph crawl to the end of Platform 5 is particularly cruel as you lose a few minutes there. No doubt I could shave a minute off going into one of the bays but that would be cheating! Looking forward to giving it a go in the other direction.
Great work, think I’ll give it another go with your latest strategy and I’m looking forward to the opposite run. Honestly, we might be running according to real times now. I remember back when DCZ came out, Joe talked about its real world timetable. The real timetable was actually too tight but had some buffer before Dresden, meaning that trains would run a bit late at every station but arrive on time at Dresden. Seeing how no one manages to get to Stalybridge on time but some here already got to Leeds early, maybe it’s a similar deal? Be that as it may, great work everyone. It’s good to learn from one another and these challenges prove far more fun that I initially thought.
Great effort, Driver A Paice. It's really useful to have the speed graph of the journey - such a shame that's not available when using Free Roam on TSW4. I must admit, I'm slightly puzzled as to where you lost the time versus the overall scheduled time to Leeds. Your minimum and maximum speeds on the climbs were very impressive. If you'd shown me just the speed graph, I'd have expected it to be the fastest time yet. You possibly braked slightly early for the 15mph into Huddersfield (in my experience you can maintain 50mph until you enter the second of the two tunnels) and as you mention you were slightly slow through the fly-under at Heaton Lodge, but neither of those would cost that much time. Still, 22mph on Miles Platting bank (I don't think I've done more than 19mph) and that climb to Standedge Tunnel were great efforts. I know what you mean about going all the way to the end of the longest platform at Leeds. It did cross my mind that I could knock a minute off by stopping at the signal half way down the platform (as some trains do) but by that stage I'd started going all the way to the end, so it would have made the times incomparable if I'd changed it. In the end I'm glad I didn't give in to temptation! I enjoyed your pictures. How did you get the Jubilee and the green diesels onto the route on TSW3, please?
Well, I’ve had another go with the 200psi approach as described by lcyrrjp. Don’t think it went too badly, certainly an improvement at the end over my previous run. Spoiler: Speed graphs These are the speed graphs from the pause menu at the station stops. My previous times were: This time around: I got everywhere up to Huddersfield at roughly the same time but ca. 30 seconds later. This already started with Miles Platting so I assume that’s the culprit. I was very stringent with the 200psi and it seems that that didn’t work in my favour. The way I tackled gradients was to use 25 cut off with 40 (or 60 if i was feeling brave) regulator until I got close to 200psi, then cut off down to 20 until on 200psi. Leave everything as is and monitor pressure. If it continues to drop, use 18 or 17 cut off to stay on 200psi (reduce regulator to 35 if absolutely necessary). Alternate between 17/18/20/22 cut off as gradient permits and stay on 200. As already said, I was slower than when I was happy to run the boiler down to 175psi, so maybe sticking hard and fast to 200psi on the gradients is a little too conservative. I made time up out of Huddersfield and Dewsbury. I was more happy to let the pressure drop a bit (maybe to around 180) here since the major climbs were behind us and that seemed to work. I will say though, I could have probably been more aggressive accelerating out of gradients, which might have given the 200psi-limit more merrit, but I wanted to see how it went when I maintained high pressure on the flats as well. Most importantly for me though, I actually managed to arrive in Leeds on time! My wheels stopped exactly 7 seconds before the scheduled time of arrival. I might tackle the run again, but honestly, I’m overjoyed to have actually pulled into Leeds on time and I wouldn’t mind this as my final result. Certainly. I had a particularly keen eye on the clock while pulling into Leeds and I used platform 5 as well. I entered the platform at 7:29 - pretty much two minutes before stopping. Surprisingly intense for crawling through a station
Well just tried that run again, starting from Leeds at 10:05. Reached Morley Tunnel at 10:17, having climbed a good part of the gradient at around 30 mph on 100% regulator and 25% cut-off until I hit 125 psi, at which point I set it down to 40%/22%, summiting at a stabilized 23 mph. Brought her back up to 56 mph downhill before slamming the brakes for Mirfield Junction (through which I didn't grossly overspeed, for once), passing the station at 10:26. Made Huddersfield at 10:37 with 200 psi available, resulting in passing Marsden at 10:55 doing 25 mph, having done the whole climb at 50%/25%, which left me with a boiler stable at 140 psi. Bombed it downhill hoping to exhaust some more steam but that wasn't enough, blowing off excess pressure as I passed Stalybridge at 11:10. Sadly the game once more decided this wasn't to be a successful run, as I got a Service Failed error (no more details) as I was approaching Ashton. Probably would have reached Victoria around 11:25 otherwise.
A New Challenge: Leeds to Manchester Victoria This is the 10:05 Newcastle - Liverpool, in the 1958 timetable. Between Leeds and Manchester Victoria the schedule was as follows: Leeds (d) 13:04 Huddersfield (a) 13:33 Huddersfield (d) 13:35 Stalybridge (a) 14:06 Stalybridge (d) 14:08 Manchester Victoria (a) 14:22 I tried this with the jubilee and 7 mk1s and achieved the timings reasonably comfortably. I then tried it with 10 mk1s and arrived into Victoria 4 minutes late (details of both runs to follow). I recommend trying it with 7 mk1s first. It's a really enjoyable run with some fast running, and the climb to Standedge (steeper and longer than on the Eastbound run) is an interesting challenge. Running through Dewsbury at speed is also particularly satisfying. Then, if you want a really tough challenge, try it with 10 mk1s. I should warn - I'm not sure this is possible. Based on my run, I can think of where we might get back 2 minutes, but I'm not sure where the other 2 minutes would come from. Still, I think it'll be fun trying to find out. Whatever the load, you need to put waypoints on the dive-under at Heaton Lodge Junction, and in the Up (Westbound) platform at Huddersfield. If you try it with 10 coaches and want to get the whole of the train into the platform at Victoria, you need to select as your destination Platform 11 West. This is as shown by the cross on the map below: If you don't do that, you'll get a red signal half way down the platform (which is OK for 7 coaches, but not 10). As there's no Dewsbury call, the 10-coach load fits into all the other stations without difficulty. As usual, the challenge is to achieve the schedule without using more than 25% on either damper, while observing line speeds and the station dwell times (note - they're 2 minutes on this schedule, which is handy for recovering boiler pressure). I should also point out that I played this on free roam mode, so with no AI traffic (I decided the BR blue spoiled the immersion somewhat). If you try it in timetable mode, you may get signal checks. Good luck!
Leeds - Man Vic - 1st and 2nd attempts My first attempt at this schedule was with 7 mk1s. I stuck to the approach which had got me my best time in the opposite direction, prioritising maintaining boiler pressure on the climbs, allowing a final 'push' when close to the summit and better acceleration once over the top. Once clear of the PSRs through the junctions after Leeds I used 39% regulator and 18% cut-off which maintained 185 PIS and took me to 32mph for most of the climb. Passing Morley at 13:14:50 I was able to accelerate to 50mph by the time we emerged from the tunnel, then quickly up to 60mph on the descent. There then follows a section with three PSRs - 50mph at Dewsbury, 45mph at Ravensthorpe and 50mph at Heaton Lodge. I had plenty of steam, and was able to achieve some fast running in between each. After Heaton Lodge it's a stiff climb to Huddersfield, and still I had enough steam available to attack it, arriving at Huddersfield over a minute and a half early. The long wait for time meant I had full boiler pressure for the climb ahead to Standedge. On departure I was very careful to keep boiler pressure only a fraction short of the maximum and using 39% regulator and 18% cut-off the 218 PSI took me to 28mph for most of the 1 in 105 climb. We entered Standedge Tunnel at 13:52:19, accelerated through the tunnel and were quickly up to 60mph on the descent. Arrival at Stalybridge was just over a minute ahead of schedule. The run from Stalybridge to Victoria is pretty much downhill throuhout. You can accelerate quickly at the start, as boiler pressure is no object, and it's just a matter of complying with the various speed restrictions (although that's not particularly easy down Miles Platting bank). Arrival at Victoria was at 14:20:45, just over a minute early. Having made fairly light work of the run with 7 coaches, and knowing that you lot like a challenge, I wondered how it would go with 10. I'd imagine a train such as the 10:05 Newcastle - Liverpool might well have had more than 7 coaches (the 1958 timetable mentions it offered a restaurant car throughout, so that's one coach used up for a start - but don't tell OldVern) but 10 seemed a heavy load over the Pennines. Would it have had a pilot over this section with such a load? If it would, the pilot must have been unavailable today, as I was asked to tackle the banks unaided. I started out with the intention of using the same technique as with 7 coaches, maintaining boiler pressure as the priority. With 38% regulator and 17% cut-off we maintained 215 PSI and 27mph initially. Knowing I was tight for time I opened up to 43% regulator and 20% cut-off for the final part of the climb, passing Morley at 13:16:26 (a minute and a half slower than with 7 on). The resulting loss of boiler press cost me though, and running beyond was far less impressive. I struggled to accelerate between the three PSRs and the final climb to Huddersfield was poor, such that I barely needed to brake for the 15mph PSR into the station. I arrived at 13:34:19 - nearly 3 minutes slower than the previous run, and over a minute down on schedule. The 2 minute station stop meant the valves were lifting by departure time, and again I held 218 PSI by using 41% regulator and 19% cut-off (note these are slightly higher positions than the loco on the previous run was able to handle while maintaining pressure - further evidence of some variation in performance between locos?) With the extra load, though, this was only enough to hold me at 23mph for the climb - 5mph slower than with 7 on. As a result we entered Standedge tunnel at 13:56:54 - a climb three-and-a-half minutes longer than the previous run. We made a similarly fast descent, but I messed up the braking for the 15mph at Stalybridge, and cost myself some time, arriving at 14:10:10 - over 4 minutes late. The final section to Victoria didn't feel quite so easy with 10 on, taking longer to get up to speed, with only gentle falling gradients on the initial section to OAGB Jn to aid us. A few seconds are also lost by the need to go further down the platform at Victoria. None the less, a little time was made up against schedule, and arrival was at 14:25:51 - just under 4 minutes late. I liked to think my relief might feel some sympathy when he saw the weight of the train, but he muttered something about Leeds men, and I headed for the mess room. In truth, I think there's some time to be had here. I mis-managed the boiler pressure trying to be too greedy in the final part of the climb to Morley and accelerating through the tunnel, and it cost me all the way to Huddersfield - perhaps the full minute and 19 seconds that I was late in. I also lost half a minute or so in the braking for Stalybridge. The other 2 minutes, I'll leave to your collective abilities to work out. Is there a better way to do the climbs? I think there'll have to be if we're going to get this one in on time.
I’m early this time. Lovely way to end the Sunday on. I decided to tackle the 7 coach run. To be frank, I know I’m a worse driver than you so looking at your times, I thought it appropriate for me to start with 7. I don’t know enough about UK railroading to judge if 7 is actually an appropriate number for this service. I did it in timetable and got greens all the way. Hate driving on an empty route, so I rather had unrealistic BR blue than the void. It was a nice, if uneventful run. Got to Huddersfield ca 30 seconds early, Stalybridge 1 minute early and Victoria 5 seconds early (so just on time). Not much to report back on in terms of technique. The gardients out of Leeds I tackled with 20 and 17 cut off alternating (40 regulator as usual). Tried to stick close to 200psi to have headway for accelerating quickly when I reach the tunnel before Dewsbury. I braked too hard for the speed restrictions at Ravensthorpe, so I lost some good time here getting back up to speed. For the climb out of Huddersfield up to Standedge Tunnel, I adhered to the by now proven 20 cut off with 40 regulator, which carried me up nicely while maintaining close to 200psi (compared to the run out of Leeds, I think I could really feel that the loco is warmed up by now). In the tunnel and beyond (with the exception of the restriction as you leave the tunnel), I gave her the spurs with 25 cut off and up to 60 regulator to make use of the steam saved up. If more acceleration was required after getting the boiler down to 150-160psi, I used 17 or 20 cut off with the boiler around 175psi. Pretty much the same goes for getting out of Stalybridge. Use the saved steam to get up to speed quickly, especially since you don’t get quite as much support from the gradients. And everything ends once more with a slow trot through an endless platform at Victoria. Anyways, I enjoyed being on time for once. And now, you guessed it, time for pictures Spoiler: Pretty Pictures :D
Sounds like a good efficient run, Lamplight, with arrivals just slightly ahead of time which is always good practice. Interesting that 20/40 out of Huddersfield allowed you to stay above 200PSI. That sounds like a good option. The pictures are great. That one of the loco on the viaduct taken from amongst the houses is just stunning, and I also like the arty one from behind the coach in the sidings. Black and white picks out the details so sharply and the light and shade creates great effects.
I was surprised as well, that’s why I added the comment about the loco having warmed up in parentheses. Out of Leeds, 20/40 could not maintain 200psi, that’s why I had to balance it out with some 17/40. Out of Huddersfield, I wanted to do the basic approach I did before: 25 cut off down to close to 200psi, then 20 on 200 and adjust down to 18/17 as needed. But, the pressure just never dropped. It dipped slightly down to perhaps 195psi at some point, but that’s it. I don’t have a speedo, but when I looked at the pause menu, I think I was doing somewhere around the neighbourhood of 30mph consistently, too. It’s certainly something I wanna experiment more with. Thanks As you can see in my uploads, I have a ton of very basic “pretty train in the middle of the screen” pictures that are nothing to write home about. But I’ve been trying to pay more attention to the scenery around the train to find more interesting compositions where the train becomes part of the picture instead of the only thing in it, if that makes any sense.
Had some time to get back on the 10-coach run. My experience was quite similar to yours, lcyrrjp. My times were: Huddersfield: 13:35 Stalybridge: 14:10 Victoria: 14:25 I used the 20/40 combo a lot on the way out of Leeds to the first tunnel. I can’t quite put my finger on it - maybe it was the slightly lower speeds or maybe some locos vary in performance - but this time the loco was happier to stick close to 200psi. I also didn’t mismanage the Ravensthorpe slow down this time. I made sure to have plenty of steam for the final climb to Huddersfield and seeing how there’s the 50mph slow down on the junction before anyways, it’s not like I lost a lot of time not making the fullest use of the flat between Ravensthorpe and the junction (what line is that, by the way?). I used 20/40 on the climb to Huddersfield and let pressure drop almost all the way to 150psi. The poor girl was really out of breath pulling into Huddersfield 2 minutes late. I should have cut back on the cut off shortly before Huddersfield, but thought I might keep up the high speeds longer by just sticking it out. Oh well. Then came the climb out of Huddersfield to Standedge Tunnel. Holy moly, what a brutal climb with 10 coaches. This really felt a bit too much for the poor girl. I did my 25/40 to 200psi, then 20/40 and adjust. Probably due to the significantly slower speeds, the 20 cut off worked quite differently. It didn’t have enough power to really get going but maintained over 200psi. Therefore, I tried a new tactic. I mainly used 22 and 23 cut off (40 regulator). 23 used up steam but was enough to get me up properly. 22 was just about enough, but usually regenerated steam. I fell into a cycle of using 23 to keep the speed up and then switching to 22 or 20 to regenerate pressure. It worked, but I’m sure it can be done better than I did. By the time I reached Marsden, I cut back on the cut off to have steam available in the flat tunnel. In Standedge tunnel, I gave her the spurs (25/40) to get up to speed and regenrated steam when getting ready for the 40mph limit at the end. Gave her the spurs again on the descent to Stalybridge. The slow ascent to Standedge Tunnel had cost me: 4 minutes late at Stalybridge. I wanted to give the home stretch my best shot. This time, I really pushed the old girl as far as she could take. 25/60 to get the 10 coaches up to speed. Stick to the 50mph, then 25/60 again for the 60mph. Slow down for Miles Platting at the last second and then thunder down to Victoria with some short 25/60 again and finally brake for the endless platform. Stopped at Victoria a few seconds before 14:25. Managed to make up a minute of delay. The old girl had given it her all and it paid off. Somehow that reads like a story from The Railway Series Once more, the climbs are key here and I’m curious to see if someone can come up with other strategies for the heavy load. Would also be interesting to see if we can find out what coach numbers the real service was running. 10 really did feel exceptionally heavy on the steep climbs. Oh, just one more thing. Pictures Spoiler: :D
Thanks, I really enjoy these challenges, it's a wholesome thread. For the BR Green Diesels I made my own liveries and made a scenario. Unfortunately I can't upload it to Creators Club as it doesn't work for me at the moment. If you want the liveries for yourself or to try some SOS scenarios they are on my profile. I hope the link works. The CC website is a little rough to say the least haha: https://creatorsclub.dovetailgames.com/profile/paice-6069
I think I'll have a shot at this Thursday evening and will be sure to say how I get on. The runs so far have certainly be interesting and I am looking forward to having a go with the 10 MKIs, though will start with the seven.
Great effort, Lamplight. Although a similar outcome, we seemed to make good time at slightly different parts of the route, so a combination of the two might yet shave a bit off! Do you remember what speed you were able to hold up the bank from Huddersfield to Standedge using the technique you describe? Great screenshots as always. I particularly like the first one, through the half-open corridor connection. In answer to your question: between Ravensthorpe and Heaton Lodge (where you go through the fly-under) you’re on the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway’s route from Wakefield towards Manchester via Hebden Bridge (the more Northerly trans-pennine route). Aside from that short section you’re always on London North Western Railway metals, until you pass Stalybridge Junction. There the London North Western goes off towards Stockport, and you’re back on the Lancashire and Yorkshire into Victoria. The route is an odd sort of hybrid in that respect.
Thank you. I have toyed briefly with Creators Club but found it difficult to use and I kept getting odd results when trying to use others’ creations, so I gave up. These shots make me feel tempted to give it another go, though - I’d love to have a few green diesels around as I go over the Pennines.
Definitely. I feel like there’s still a lot to be discovered with these heavier loads on the Pennines. I’m looking forward to hearing what matt#4801 finds out. Due to my HUD choices, I can’t give you an exact figure. When I looked at the pause menu, it seemed more or less centre on 25mph. It was fluctuating though. What I did depended a lot on how quickly you reacted to changes and at what point you switched cut offs (how much to let pressure drop on 23, when do I go back to 23 while regenerating, etc. - for comparison, I tried to stick between roughly 160 and 200psi). I was doing some experimenting as well like letting her run just on 22 for a bit, but it did feel like I lost speed if I didn’t switch back to 23. I will say, as much as I’m happy with my final arrival in Victoria, I’m not really satisfied with this climb. It was very haphazard with no real strategy other than “20 cut off is too conservative so let’s try more”. Still some experimenting to be done here. Thank you so much for your insights. Really interesting I was actually thinking about doing custom scenarios for us as well. That way, we wouldn’t need to faff about with free roam pathing and spawning all the time and we could use more appropriate AI stock. I wouldn’t know appropriate AI stock and timings though, so I never pursued it.
That would be fantastic. The DTG team dropped a lot of hints that building timetables in the editor is a nightmare, and I think that’s why they tend to do these horrible AI-generated timetables for their routes, but I’d be interested to give it a go none-the-less.
Building timetables seems to be fairly easy compared to building a route. There's a guy making a new timetable for Dresden-Riesa and he's making good progress.
Some very nice runs guys. Very enjoyable to read and compare. I had a crack at the Leeds to Manchester Victoria run with the Jubilee. I wanted a challenge so I went straight for the 10 loaded mk1's and as usual only 25% dampers. The first attempt was poor, I wasn't particularly concentrating and I made several mistakes including leaving my blower on when trying to ascend a hill, overdoing the brakes and forgetting about speed restrictions. I was a few minutes late already at Huddersfield and by the time I had messed up the climb from Huddersfield we arrived at Manchester around 12 minutes late . I came back fresh for a 2nd attempt. This was already feeling better and we trotted up to Morely at around 29mph and made nice time through Dewsbury, passing at 13:23:30. I slightly overcooked the brakes for the restriction at Ravensthorpe but managed to get to about 47mph by the end of the 4-track section. I didn't thrash the locomotive on this section as I wanted steam for the climb up to Huddersfield. Using the downhill gradient to slingshot me up the otherside, I brushed 50mph at the bottom of the underpass then used 40/26 settings to get me back up to the less severe gradient of the main line where I wound back to roughly 40/22. Steam and speed continued to trickle away but I made it up comfortably, still doing around 35mph when it was time to brake. My braking was far superior this time. These vacuum brakes are slow to act but once they 'bite' they are quick to slow the train - especially at the lower speeds. I stopped at Huddersfield at 13:35:15, about 2 minutes behind schedule. After waiting for a minute for the passengers, I started the slog up the hill. Using approximately the same settings as everyone else, we struggled up, drifting between 19 and 23 mph as the steam rose and fell. I was very glad to finish the torture, summiting at 13:58:00. I used all my steam to get me up to 45mph then settled there in the tunnel waiting for the PSR. Once through we quickly attained 60mph and braked nicely for Stalybridge, arriving at 14:12:03. I had a full head of steam by now and wasted no time heading down the hill towards Miles Platting using everything I had. I still accelerated slower than I expected however but made decent time and my braking was acceptable. After Miles Platting we hit 40mph straightaway and I held it as long as I dared before making a hard brake application for the 15mph PSR at the station throat and then the 10mph PSR in platform 12. The wheels stopped at 14:26:45, 4 minutes behind schedule. I was pretty pleased with this. My strong point is not the climbs so someone with a little more skill with the regulator and reverser I'm sure can shave a minute or two off. I'd be suprised if the schedule is possible with 10mk's as it does seem a little too much on this route. For the next challenge perhaps the Jubilee and 7 Mk1's in the snow on this route?
Great effort, well done, and thanks for the report. It sounds like you achieved slightly higher speeds than I have done on that first climb to Morley, and a really good overall time. It's nice to have climb in this direction which you can have a real run at, from Heaton Lodge to Huddersfield. The climb from Huddersfield to Standedge is a real slog, though, and finding a way to do it more quickly still feels like the key to a fast run - it just takes such a long time to complete at the speeds we're achieving! Interesting idea about doing this run with 7 on in the snow. I'm not sure how much difference it will make to the time - might we have adhesion problems on the starts and climbs? It will certainly look pretty though!
Leeds - Man Vic - 3rd attempt (10 mk1s) Tonight I made my 3rd attempt at this schedule, again with 10 mk1s. We made the usual slow start from Leeds, and once clear of the PSRs climbed at 41% regulator and 18% cut-off. Holding pressure at 220 PSI held speed at 28mph, increasing to 44% regulator and 21% cut-off on the final steeper section. On the last run I made the mistake of using up too much pressure in trying to accelerate too fast at the end of the climb and through the tunnel, and struggled for pressure all the way from there to Huddersfield. This time I accepted slightly slower initial acceleration and stayed focussed on boiler pressure, and it paid off impressively. After the PSRs at Dewsbury and Ravensthorpe we were able to accelerate quickly, and after Heaton Lodge, with 2010 PSI available, we were able to launch a real assault on the climb and hold speed close to 50mph most of the way up. Only once we were through Bradley did we start to run out of steam, but by then we'd done enough. We arrived at Huddersfield at 13:33:20 - just 20 seconds late, and a minute better than the previous attempt. As we stood at Huddersfield I watched the boiler pressure rise agonisingly slowly, conscious it was critical to start the climb ahead with full pressure. The 2 minute dwell time was just enough. We started with 210 PSI, and it rose to 215 PSI in the initial section through the 15mph PSR. From there I used 40% regulator and 21% cut-off which kept pressure high, and gave a consistent 23mph all the way to the summit. This was pretty much identical to my previous climb, but after the fast descent my braking for Stalybridge was better than last time and I arrived at 14:08:29 - two-and-a-half minute late, and over one-and-a-half minutes better than the previous attempt. The final section to Victoria felt similar on the falling grades, but my braking was again slightly better and I made up a little more time, arriving at 14:23:39 - an improvement of over 2 minutes, and just one-and-half minutes down on schedule. This was roughly in line with my feeling after the previous run that about another 2 minutes were there to be had. To find the last one-and-a-half minutes I suspect we'll need to find something which gives us slightly higher climbing speeds.
Nice run, it’s great to see an improvement every time I does not sound like you’ve got much to improve on with your runs. You can only do so much against that gradient from Huddersfield. You really made an improvement between Stalybridge and Huddersfield. It’s amazing the impact the braking can have. I had a little test and you are right it doesn’t really make a difference with the sander on. Maybe if we were doing a heavy freight or stopping passenger service.
That’d be something I’d really love. I’m more of a freight than passenger person and I’d love to know realistic the 8F is with various damper settings.
Yes, it would be extremely difficult to establish unfortunately. I don’t know of any logs of the performance of steam-hauled freight trains (naturally enough, as members of the public can’t travel on them), so the sorts of real-life comparisons I made in order to come up with damper settings which best re-create the true performance of the Jubilees would not be possible. Even if we managed to overcome that, finding real-life timings would be very difficult, as we’d need working timetables from the era, and I don’t know a source of those.
Sadly due to the real life railway being a right so and so I have just got in from work, only a few hours later than I should have, and so haven't had a chance to do this tonight, though I have now got a nice short day (though I've now just jinxed that) tomorrow so will hopefully get a chance then. Some freight would be interesting, though as said finding comparisons would certainly be a job and a half!
I know sites that sell them. If there is interest I could fundraise for enough money to buy the TSW-relevant ones available and then work with Timetable World to digitise them.
I figured as much. Bit of a shame, really. As I said, I’d certainly be interested, but we’d need a way to actually establish the performance of the 8F reasonably first.
I did some digging with my very limited knowledge of UK railroading and only found 2 performance logs of an 8F with coaches. Wessex Downsman Railtour (1) (2) West Somerset Railway (1) Probably not enough not to make any statements on the 8F, I guess.
I had a go at the 8f Railtour timings you found on the West Somerset Railway. One because we haven’t had a challenge with the 8f and two because I really want to get more use out of the WSR dlc which I find to be interminably dull even though it is nicely modelled. This is mostly beacuse you have a roster of over-powered diesels to choose from. I have had recent enjoyable experiences in the timetable with the class 31 as it is low powered amd you can open it up a bit but this run with the 8f was the most fun. I thought a challenge on WSR sounded ludicrous due to the low speeds but on trying it out found that the 10 coach load on the gradients is very tough and the low speed restrictions on the downhill sections test your braking abilities like no other route and results in a really enjoyable run. As usual it’s max 25% dampers and you need to select the 8f and 10 mk1’s on scenario planner. This 8f clearly took over a railtour from a mainline engine. It went to Minehead dropping off passengers at Dunster and Minehead. It also stopped on the way to Minehead additionally at Williton and Blue Anchor to allow the service trains to pass. On the way back it didn’t have to wait anywhere after picking up passengers at Dunster. I will be using the timed splits as a measure and waiting where required for 1 minute at stations as this seems to be about right. The driver in real life was speeding occasionally so I have overlooked the odd times where I strayed a mph over. I think thats fair. I have attached the times and gradient profile to help if anyone else wants a go:
Bishops Lydeard - Minehead return 8f + 10 mk1's I kicked off with the run down to Minehead. Straight out of Bishops Lydeard you are onto the first climb. The 1 in 80 really takes it toll and with the controls at 41/21 I struggled up. The speed dropped to 15mph at one point. We rattled through Crowcombe at around 14 mins which to my surprise was nicely on schedule. Now it’s the first bit of downhill and we sailed through Stogumber on-time at 20:50 mins. The downhill comes with its own challenge of managing the vacuum brakes to hold enough speed to not lose time but not too much as to excessively speed. We arrived at our first pause at Williton 10 seconds early at 29:20 mins. After our stop of a minute we continued on. A nice bit of downhill helped us gain speed quickly but there are some tricky restrictions between here and Watchet to negotiate. I was struggling to build any boiler pressure so I don’t push it inbetween restrictions which lost me time. I guess I’m just so used to the Jubilee which builds pressure very quickly when coasting. Out of Watchet is a tough climb which only gets tougher as you approach Washford. I barely scraped the summit at 15mph and 15mins. Then we sailed down to our next pause at Blue Anchor, arriving at 22:01 mins. Just over two minutes late. We stopped again at Dunster, 06:30 mins after leaving Blue Anchor. Pushing it as hard as possible to quickly attain 25mph, we arrived at Minehead 06:21 mins after leaving Dunster. Final arrival time 13:44 compared to the real time of 13:39. -- Now for the return journey which promised to be a harder proposition with most of the gradients being uphill and 10 mk1’s being a substantial load. We quickly gained 25mph out of Minehead and came to a halt at our only stop of Dunster a minute down at 06:03 mins. We made short work of the gentle slope to Blue Anchor, passing through roughly on-time at 06:20 mins from Dunster. Now the first real climb starts. Initially 41/21 on the controls was enough to gain speed and hold 25 but then you hit a substantial section of 1 in 65. Raising the reverser to 41/30 was barely enough to stop us dropping below 12mph and we struggled over the summit at Washford only 1 minute down at 13:50 mins. I was pleased with this time and had high hopes for the later climbs. We rattled through Watchet at 20:50mins, still a minute down and negotiated the speed restrictions. I tried being more aggressive between restrictions which helped this time. We pulled into Willington after a short climb 2 minutes down at 27:30. I had taken it a little easier approaching Willington to build pressure for the big climb. Now came the misery and where this challenge is made or broke. Upon leaving Willington you hit a sustained 1in99 gradient which saps at your steam amd speed. I tried various control settings, roughly settling around 40/22 but speed bled quickly. It is clear this engine cannot be driven like a Jubilee. There is lots of power in the 8f but only at lower speeds. A brief period of level brought some respite but then we hit another gradient, now at 1in92 with speed dropping to 15mph. We dragged ourselves through Stogumber 4 minutes late at 38:30 mins and then summited at Crowcombe at 49:00 mins - just over 7 minutes down now thanks to the poor climb. The gradient descends to Bishops Lydeard and we stopped in the platform at 59:25 mins from Dunster- basically 8 minutes late. Final arrival time 18:01 compared to the real time of 17:52. -- This was quite an interesting trip and it's nice to see how the 8f and Jubilee perform differently. Do not be fooled by the serene and leisurely pace of the WSR, this challenge was tough and I look forward to seeing other attempts.
a.paice Lovely, glad to see I’m not the only one interested in the 8F. Thank you for your reports. I’ll have a go as well once I’ve got time. I know we don’t have much to go on, but what was your impression of the 8F with 25% dampers? While lcyrrjp managed to figure out the Jubilee, we technically don’t know how accurate the 8F is with that setting.
Really interesting challenge and run - and some great pictures - thank you. I don't own WSR (never having been able to build up much enthusiasm for preserved diesels running at 25mph) but this looks much more interesting, and tempts me to buy it next time it's on sale. In terms of re-creating the true performance of an 8F, it looks as if you weren't able to maintain boiler pressure on the climbs to the same extent as the real thing, although it could be that there's some more experimentation to be done, as we found on the different runs with the Jubilee. I had a look at Lamplight's Wessex Dalesman Railtour log. On that the 8F takes 10 x mk1s up the brutal climb from Radstock to Binegar on the Somerset & Dorset. The average gradient is about 1 in 60 and speed appears to level out (sustained for around 5 miles) at 11 mph. That perhaps looks slightly closer to your experience. Of course, different steam locos of the same class perform very differently on different days (and even at different times on the same day) due to a multitude of factors so it's difficult to make comparisons. I suggest it's definitely worth some more experimentation with the 8F on WSR to see whether it's possible to get any more out of it using the 25% limitation. I'm looking forward to trying the 8F on the schedule provided on Preston - Blackpool N too (which is a superb route by the way, if any of you haven't got it). I'll post here what I find in terms of the 8F's performance on a rather faster route.
The only issue I find with the 8F is that it seems either a little underpowered, that or the 4F is massively overpowered. I seem to lose boiler pressure with the 8F much quicker and thats just with auto firing and thats trying to be conservative, compared to the Jubilee and the other locos its just not quite as easy. Which in some ways is more fun but I wonder how accurate it is? Has anyone messed around with dampers for the 4f and Scotsman yet? Might be another interesting development
I think it's that the 4F is massively over-powered. Someone did some comparisons on the bank out of Liverpool Lime Street (can't find them now) and the results were crazy.
I think Scotsman is a lost cause to be honest, I tried driving her the other day to take screenshots of a livery, but it cheesed me off so much I ended up driving the peak I stuck on the back and just pushed her along. The 4f I don't think is as bad but certainly seems too powerful, unless the 8f is underpowered, I'm not sure which it is on that one.
I’d say it’s worth it in a sale. The line is beautifully done but the rolling stock is not all that great anymore. Haven’t been in the green 47 in ages but have been in the 09 and it’s really not aged well. The loco DLCs are much better. The 52 is nice and not too overpowered if you only run on one engine (which is what they do on preserved lines as I understand it). The 33 is a bit of a hidden gem - just right in terms of power so that it almost feels like a normal run. One of the first things I did when SoS came out was running a kettle on WSR and that was a much more enjoyable experience overall. Looking forward to returning with the 8F. This. In addition to what lcyrrjp said, I did my own test with the 4F as reported in another thread. Bottom line was that with the 4F pulling 500 tons up a 2% gradient, it was still almost impossible to lose steam pressure with running only on 25% dampers. Obviously, the 4F also massively outperformed the 8F on the same test.
I felt it wasn't far off being about right to be honest but I just couldn't compete on the long climb at the end, it just didn't have the pressure. My hill climbing is certainly not the best and we always have the disadvantage of not being professional drivers and not having full control over the fire and water. The timings are not the best as the real driver speeds occasionally and I was trying not too. Maybe in reality I'm not as far behind as I think I am. I can't really find any other 8f timings on the routes currently in TSW. I don't have TSW4 so I can't try the blackpool route sadly.
Definitely don't buy it unless it's only a few pounds. It has a nice atmosphere but very boring chugging along with massively over-powered (for the line) diesels. The only enjoyable locomotive I've found is the class 31 which can be opened up a bit more as it is very weak and very realistic. I belive the 33 and 52 DLC are a big draw for some and no doubt we will get a steam engine one day on it. Looking forward to hearing how the 8f performs in Blackpool.
Yes, the 33 has tempted me - the only BR diesel I don’t have, because I have nowhere to run it! Now that TSW4 has free roam I might have a look at how I could plausibly run it on the Brighton line or the South Eastern, and really stretch its legs. I hold out hope Just Trains will build something suitable in the right era at some point, such as the North Wales Coast. I don’t think they ever reached Blackpool although I remember them getting to Manchester.
Such a shame about the Scotsman. I’d been looking forward to trying it on various of our challenges to see how it performed versus the Jubilee, but having seen the comments of others on its physics I haven’t even bothered to buy it. Maybe I should give the 4F a go over the Pennines - I bet it would beat the Jubilee!
Yes, I really were looing forward to trying things out with her but as I say I can't last more than 10 minutes without getting too frustrated.
I ran the 8F on Preston - Blackpool North today. The load was 8 mark 1s, and it was a warm, clear day. Departure from Preston was scheduled at 11:15 but we were slightly delayed leaving due to a Down train to Carlisle departing in front. Once underway we ran mostly at 37% regulator and 17% cut-off which held boiler pressure around 185 psi and we steadily gained speed on the gently falling gradients, thundering through Salwick - the fanatical Signalman taking a picture of us - and touching 65 mph before sighting the Distant for Kirkham. I over-cooked the braking for the signal protecting Kirkham South Jn and lost some time, but once the signal came off I was more aggressive, using 50% regulator and 20% cut-off which held speed at 40mph on the 1 in 300 climb. Once over the top we accelerated quickly, and, with boiler pressure down to 170 psi, touched 71 mph before braking for the 20mph speed restriction through the junction at Poulton. The braking allowed the boiler pressure to recover and we climbed the short, steep gradient beyond with ease. From there we were checked by signals into Blackpool North, arriving at 11:44:10 - 6 minutes early. This was a really enjoyable run, on a superbly built route. It's easy to keep time - which is probably realistic for a charter - and with harder driving there's probably another couple of minutes to be had, but there's no need for such histrionics. The 25%/25% on the dampers seemed to work well again, enabling boiler pressure to fall and recover at what feels a realistic rate. I'm no expert on the running of an 8F, so I don't know whether the performance was realistic. However, some comparison with Lamplight's logs above doesn't flag up anything which looks majorly wrong. I thoroughly recommend this run - not as any great challenge, but as a convincing transport to a steam special for the seaside in the 1980s.
I’ve come back with reports from WSR in my 8F First off, I did the same run as a.paice in free roam with 25 on the dampers and I’ve brought my own performance log Some notes: I allowed myself to overspeed since the driver in our log did, too. If I didn’t follow suit, my whole point of drawing comparisons falls flat. My dwell times are very short because I just waited for a nice round number for calculations and wanted to get on with it. Here it is in the same basic format (location, time, speed): One thing I’d like to quickly flag is mp 181. Our driver seemingly didn’t exactly adhere to the 20mph PSR here, but I did, which cost me dearly in the following climb - so these numbers don’t make for great comparison. Overall, I managed to get somewhat close to the logged performance, but usually fell a bit short. This may be down to my inexperience. The 8F seemed to run out of breath very quickly, but maybe we just need to find the right regulator/cut-off combinations. In terms of driving technique, my go-to was 25 cut-off intermixed with 23/22/20 on the climbs. Regulator was usually at 40 or 60 depending on what I could afford. Because of the apparent lack of stamina, I did some more testing with the climb out of Bishops Lydeard. My point of focus was the 21mph at 169 III in the log and the performance immediatly afterwards. Based on the later speeding, I’m assuming the driver only got her up to 21mph and didn’t purposefully go slower. I tested 25 on both dampers, 50 front/25 back and 50/50. Our usual 25 got the 21mph down pretty much spot on, which gives me confidence, but failed to mirror the performance on the steep climb after that (driver error on my side, perhaps?). 50/25 managed the climb to 169 III a bit too easily (up to 29mph instead of 21) but seemed to mirror the performance on the steep climb afterwards better. 50/50 was like a rocket and needs no further consideration to my mind. I need some further input from all of you, but my impression from testing and running her according to the log is as follows: the performance seems to lie somewhere between 25/25 and 50/25. Between the two, I feel like 25/25 is the overall better approximation, but there’s an argument for 50/25 on steep climbs perhaps. Anyways, I had a lot of fun and I’m very curious to hear your thoughts
Lovely run, lcyrrjp. Thanks for all of the details on technique. Are 8Fs actually allowed to go that fast? I tried looking it up in the past and found confusing reports of a max authorised speed of 60 or 50 or even lower depending on how the wheels are balanced. Very confusing for me
Really interesting run, Lamplight - thanks for the account. My overall feeling is that the 25/25 combination probably restricts the amount of oxygen which gets to the firebox a little too much at the slow speeds on the WSR. At the higher speeds on other routes it seems fine. My suspicion is that’s why, on the WSR, we’re seeing the 8F being slow to recover boiler pressure when you shut off - you don’t have the speed to get the fire going. In terms of maximum permitted speed for the 8F - it’s a good question! The one on the Somerset & Dorset log seems to top out in the 50s, but I don’t know whether that’s limited by the line speeds on the route (which I doubt were very high). I’ll do a bit more research.
