Save Game Issues - Dtg Feedback Please

As the forum moderation seems to have gone a bit overboard locking the threads where this could be raised, one very key point was not covered by DTG Alex at the end of this one November Roadmap Q&a Thread | Page 7 | Dovetail Games Forums

Namely what is happening with outstanding save game issues in particular the problem where changing to another train or starting a fresh run in a session then saving and returning later is not capturing or restoring the objective data, meaning you cannot really continue. This in effect prevents chaining several runs to emulate a driver's shift or attempting emergent gameplay with delays from one run knocking on to another.

Why is this issue being ignored? It must be known about so surely it should be getting some priority amongst the various bugfixes.

The other save game issue we are repeatedly stonewalled on, is when are we going to get more than one save slot. With the amount of content now availble in TSW it's ridiculous we don't have at least a save slot for each route, so you can jump around a bit more.

Let's hope this thread doesn't get locked, deleted or redacted as now seems to be happening when someone asks an awkward question or points out a home truth.

 

I had the exact same thought as soon as I saw threads being locked. Can’t reply to the multitude of questions and bug reports but quick to respond to awkward criticism and to say the thread is being locked.

And I agree with your post. Would like to see the issues with the same game feature be addressed. I refuse to use it for the reasons you noted above.

 

Honestly, I wouldn’t be suprised if DTG didn't answer this question. I do think that this issue does need to be sorted. Some players just don't do one service and are done. Also we should have multiple save slots. Games like Tramsim has save slots so I can do a run on line 71, but then save and create a new run on Line 1 and then go back to the same journey if I wanted to.

Also I have to agree with the point of DTG being quick to lock threads but aren't as quick to answer questions. I do find that quite ridiculous if you ask me. It just feels like cherry picking certain topics to answer

 

I read page 6 and 7 of that thread. A developer calling paying customers idiots is probably the most ridiculous thing one can say. But hey apparently even fixing minor bugs like windscreen wipers takes 2 years when a modder can do something in mere minutes yet apparently that makes the customer an idiot.

Sorry OldVern, but if it takes a long time to fix minor bugs, then it will take 5 years to fix the save game. After all, expecting a full working product before release and quick bug fixes makes us idiots.

I popped into a thread that was long that criticized those comments but was locked because it "lacked context" for that criticism. I wasn't sure of why there was criticism of those comments. Well DTG, you have the context on page 7 of that roadmap q&a thread.

I do think the save game should be sorted though. There are those that do want to drive another train but not want to go to the main menu to select a different service hence the need for a reliable save game that saves the progress of the new service they will be jumping to and the need for the save game to not break something that will prohibit a player to take a new service.

Sorry for going off topic, but if that is the mindset of a third party Dev for DTG despite his content being actually good, then it's no wonder issues like these and countless others keep popping up. It's like the company has a that'll do attitude and people will forget about bugs and just buy the next shiny thing. Meanwhile, if a customer has a valid point, they may be called an idiot by a developer

 

Hopefully we will get a response from DTG on the matter at some point, asking in an open friendly manner. Otherwise it does kind of look as if they are cherry picking what gets official feedback and what doesn't.

 

In fairness, it's not just the forums where people post. There are reddit threads and social media sites along with the forum so it isn't exactly easy to respond to every single thread. It is also the weekend as well.

At the same time though, they are quick to lock threads or edit language in certain forum threads so that is a bit odd as well

 

Maik didn't call the customers idiots, he called himself one. The above misrepresentation is the kind of outright falsehood in the service of creating as much negativity as possible that results in less engagement, which is of course then disingenuously complained about in order to create more negativity.

There are certainly plenty of bases for honest, constructive complaints, if the intent is truly to make the game better.

 

Three Save slots would be enough for me - surely it can't be that difficult. (As long as it didn't break something else)

 

As one of the "you people", I have to say that this is not a good look. Firstly its unclear why the interaction took place at all, second its unclear what the desired outcome was in terms of a point being made, third- as a brand ambassador whatever an employee says has to sail clearly on the side of acceptability. Yes the standards are higher, yes its unfair. Thats just the way the world spins when youre an employee.
Context is unimportant. The style, tone and content need to be focussed. It can be sharp, but this exchange just leaves a bad taste and damages the brand.
My reason for posting this- I think DTG are making a great effort at engaging with the community. DTG Adam and others really put in the hard yards working with the material they have. Its to their credit they are always courteous and civil, despite what must on occasion be some fairly dispiriting moments. This on the other hand is an example of why devs need to dev, and comms managers need to comm manage.

November Roadmap Q&a Thread

 

My issue with the Save function is related to scenario creation / playing. Namely that if you save whilst in a scenario then the clock resets to the time the scenario started rather than the time that the save was created.

This means that all AI is now out of sync with the player service and simply won't now start. So combining Save and Scenarios is simply a non-starter. Very frustrating and, at present, a missed opportunity.

 

"Im an idiot for talking with you guys." You guys meaning the customers. It doesn't exactly take a genius to figure out what that means. It wasn't a misinterpretation at all. Either way it isn't a good look. Of course there will be criticism. Constructive and non constructive, but there are ways to handle that in a professional manner. The criticisms in that thread were constructive when a user pointed out that fixing certain things doesn't take a long time to actually fix

 

Maik is a great developer - ironically the least one I'd expected to have an argument with over quality issues. I've been purchasing all his stuff for years. Afaik he was the only one that implemented a seamlessly adjustable cabcam / seat height in TSC on his BR 425.

I was saying are you serious??? and Maik was replying No I'm an idiot... using irony.

We all lose our temper sometimes. Don't overthink stuff. We're not pussies, and after such arguments I'm the type that says "So, let's have a beer together now." Cheers.

 

I didn't say it was a misinterpretation, which it wasn't; I said it was a misrepresentation, which it was. 0 for 2 on accuracy now.

Agreed, it was an interesting back-and-forth about the difference in the time needed to fix a bug vs the total time needed to actually develop, test, and release a bug fix.

 

I'm guessing it would be necessary to get a single save slot working before they can think about several.

IIRC, the broken save issue finally became a forum crusade a bit before TSW3 was released, so DTG removed it while they worked on it. Then having it put back became a crusade because it turned out people preferred an unreliable save to none at all. At some point around there, DTG released a patch that didn't fix it completely, but did improve it.

I agree; I think a working save should be higher on the priority list than it seems to be. A broken restored game is still broken and should have the same urgency re. fixing. Hopefully this thread will put the attention back on it.

 

It didn't sound like that at all to me, and since Maik has been passive aggressive to others in the past, "I am an idiot talking to you guys" doesn't sound like self irony at all. Though if it really was NOT meant to sound like that, then I apologize - but as I have said, in the context of everything that has happened, it just came over to me and others like that.

I understand it's hard to not get angry at people that ask the same question over and over again and I've read on forums (do not take me for granted here) that he's not doing so well IRL which is why he stopped development on his work, and I really do understand him there as I've gone and still go through the same issues as he does (no motivation etc), but if actively communicating with others related to his work makes him feel worse, then it's best if he takes a break

 

Maik has written many posts in response to people's assumptions that go into detail about the process, in an attempt to inform. I just think it's tremendously ironic that people can complain so much about DTG's (perceived) lack of communication and then respond as they have to genuine reality checks from a developer in the trenches. Demanding validation over education never ends well.

 

DTG have community managers for a reason..

 

We deffo need more save game slots, especially after free-roam. I've built up a nice enviroment in NTP where depots, yards, stations, sidings etc. are all filled in with stock giving me plenty of different tasks to do on free-roam, however, one save elsewhere and I lose the lot.

We need a few save slots for each individual route.

 

I also experienced another save game issue, where the throttle lever does not apply any force anymore after loading a save game on a run with one of the locos on DRA. I tried everything (also make sure that a traction lock is not engaged) but in the end it was a clear bug.

So in comparison to your complain it wasn't objective data which was not stored properly, in my case the game anyhow had a problem recognising the state of the controls and reinitiating the parameter correctly.

Very frustrating, but luckily it wasn't for a service with long play time yet, so I just restarted the service.

Not reported that as a bug yet, as it happened to me last time before I were in the forum and I don't play so much TSW currently.

 

I also noticed how the mods closed some threads very quickly in the last days.

I hope that freedom of speech will not be affected more in the future.

 

However, how he behaved with that answer was not very friendly to people who literally are his own customers.

All arguments of his aside, this was a very unprofessionell way to answer not only to people's concerns but also on a solid base of good behavior and a healthy and constructive conversation.

I didn’t bought content of him yet, but I don't know if I will ever get content of his, if he is not open for just a slight bit of critic and reacts so poisonous.

I'm already half fed up with DTG but no employee of DTG (or any other service I used) ever reacted in such a way to me or anyone else.

Just my personal impression of the case. Can change that if he apologies. Unfortunately, this could not happen because the thread got locked by Alex so soon.

 

Lets hope not as I think it would be indicative of a bunker mentality rather than a find it, fix it, sell it mentality.

 

We all have a valid point when we ask for more information about the processes going on behind, since DTG raised so many lies and left game braking bugs in TSW although charging for a new iteration of this game every year or 2.

It's not like we are talking about unicorns or flying pigs.

Providing more information and telling the truth has become a mandatory premise to keep holding the faith in this company and the will to throw even more cash at them than it was even possible in the past.

Many people also have a half solid understanding of the work behind the curtains, it's not like we are complete fools without a bit of knowledge what is right and what is wrong, if a company cares for customer satisfaction.

Don't quite understand what you want to tell with your last sentence, but I only can hope for you, you're not going in the direction to insult or offend people implicitly here.

 

But going on to a beer requires at least a partwise compromise on both sides, admitting right's and wrong's of each party in the conversation.

I see that from your side, but not yet from his.

 

I never thought of this usage, but that's a really good point. Being able to save created free roam setups would be very nice.

It's a hassle to do, but does copying save files elsewhere and restoring them when needed work?

 

I'm a full-stack developer myself, I do front and backend development, client and web, and it is not common practice to behave like both Maik and DTG do, I mean yeah it's obviously a completely different story when you do work as a hobby or freelancing gig in your free time, then you don't need a spokesperson that communicates with everyone you are working with, but it's not a small open source project that Maik works on, he's working in a professional environment that involves commercial processes, he is working with a company commercially and expects money in return for his work - which also means that he has customers, not some random guys in a community supporting someone for a mod, he is actively choosing to work and sell a product to the masses.

 

Please keep it on topic (savegame feature request), or this thread might also get locked. Maik called himself names, and us "guys".

Be sure I do not have beef with him, we're grown ups. He's also frustrated his G6 fix is in QA for months, but he's knowing better than everyone of us what's going on behind the scenes.

 

Agree, I would hate for this topic to get clobbered - my OP on that was more of as aside as to why I didn't add it to the post Roadmap stream thread.

 

DTG's been quiet enough on the save front that a dedicated thread was a good idea anyway.

 

The real question is, will DTG even offer a solution. Has there ever been any major criticisms of the save game that has led to some change? I know they fixed some stuff but not everything. I ask because I am new to these forums.

 

Yes. I literally only joined these forums to complain continuously about save game until they fixed the permanent red light issue, which they eventually did. It only took about 6 years to get there, and people like myself complaining very loudly.

I don't know if they fixed any other aspect of saving, but that was the only issue I knew of that literally made save entirely pointless, because every time I resumed I'd be met with a red signal that resulted in a failed run and no way around it. I know some say they never had that issue, somehow, but enough of us did.

Obviously Matt knew how much of a problem that one was and made sure to fix it. I guess things like multiple saves (feature) and remaining bugs just aren't considered high priority right now...

 

I am suprised that a game in 2023 doesn't have multiple save slots. Many games have had this for many years.

 

Then I apologize for what I have said, though I still think, and probably others too, that he really should take a hiatus from his work in TSG to get some rest and "recharge his battery", since it looks like Maik seems very stressed and overwhelmed with work and other stuff, because easy irritability and demotivation are warning symptoms for a burnout. Seriously, it's not something you should ignore. But I don't know, maybe it's just something that shortly impacted him, but I don't wanna play a psychiatrist, I'm just talking about my own experience with burnout, it's a hard to escape hell, and I don't want people doing something they love and enjoy run themselves into a burnout possibly being unable to feel joy in their once hobbies for maybe even a decade

 

Yup, been there. Its not nice and you cant see it yourself until its pretty far down the road. In my case I came out in a rash and blisters and it was my doc who basically said take a break or youll have a stroke. Cue mindfulness and a healthy respect for knowing when to switch off. DTG provide a valuable service that goes beyond gaming in that Ive spent many valuable hours destressing on the wonderful output they can create (East Coastway is my firm favourite for chillaxing). Mental health needs to be taken seriously, extremely so. The trouble is its so darn tricky.

On topic- the save game feature is a great QoL feature which if fully functional is another of those elements that enriches the core gameplay experience. Its a multiplier for the good stuff thats more obvious. Please DTG, think for a moment of the long game and realign focus onto some of these neglected areas.

 

Thanks Alex.

 

I'm sorry but why does it seem like every DTG response is "we don't have any updates to share" and "our dev teams are looking at it." Hasn't save game issues been going on since TSW3? One would think surely there would be some kind of update or answer at this point. Or even an update as to what's planned for the future of the same gave feature. I mean, it just seems like a convenient response to steer attention in a different direction at this point. And that's a response given for MANY of the issues raised recently regarding stuff related to TSW4.

 

Actually I think the save game issue showed up already in TSW2, because currently since the fixes were prepared but not applied to TSW2, you can still conjure eternal red lights on saves in that version.

 

Yeah it doesn't make sense at all. Save game never worked as intended, it was deactivated, then it was brought back, broken but with the option to enable it again. Now TSW3 release was over a year ago and I think I remember it was talked about fixing it + maybe expand this feature for several save games or one save game per route or whatever. Now TSW4 is here, save game is still not working as inteded and the answer is "we don't have any updates to share regarding Save Game".

OK so we got a paid update (TSW4) with new feature which could be essential for some people, for others maybe not (for me the biggest + is the Editor), but an essential core feature of TSW, saving your game progress is still not working. Interesting at least.

So same as the broken passenger system or the improvement of steam simulation. Core features to the game, not working but no news since TSW3 release (Rush hour and SOS came both for TSW2).

Sorry for my irony here, we get orchestral music no one asked for as an addition to a train simulator (which doesn't mean it is not a nice to have), but save games are still not working. I know a musician is not fixing game features but I think you get the point.

 

This is what I was getting at. I'm glad others see it as well. This is not some new issue that arose in TSW4. It's dating all the way back to TSW2, then had issues in TSW3 and was rolled back, then introduced again. Now we have the option to turn it on or off. So again, it's not a new issue. I just have a hard time seeing how there's STILL no information at all to give on it and that the dev team is "still looking into it." After what, like 2 1/2 - 3 years? Like I said, as much as a response from DTG is appreciated, it's another one that almost reads like it's out of some "what to say in this situation" guide book. A response to steer attention elsewhere and hope the issue will stop being talked about for a while.

 

It is all a bit strange, yesterday in the thread where some people asked for FSR implenetaion (which has been deleted) Matt reported that FSR implementation was tested internally but didn't gave the benefit they hoped for. However the interesting part was (I have a screenshot of the post):

"DLSS is hard off the table, the plugin requires 4.27 and that's about 3 months engineering work to upgrade the core game, a broken public editor (and potential damage to things people have made), re-downloading every package again for everyone"

So that means that we won't get an update for TSW to UE 4.27 as content of the Editor would be broken then in the future. My point is that now with TSW4 their would have been the perfect time to upgrade to 4.27 as the Editor came with TSW4 and also everyone had also to redownload everything and it would have been possible to use the DLSS plugin for example. Now we seem to be stuck here. I understand that this would possibly have meant no more updates for TSW3 in the future. If their will be any updates is to be seen.

 

Interesting. However this is one of the reasons why I am reluctant to embark on anything with the public editor, over and above its incomplete and undocumented state. At some time almost inevitable there will have to be a UE update to service the tech and avoid the game becoming obsolete.

 

I see a completely new franchise becoming almost necessary at some point..

No issue with doing that either as all the older than TSW4 DLC is obsolete anyway.. you can still play it but its not moving forward.

 

Save game still cancelling custom weather settings on reloading. 20 Jan 2024

TSW4/PC/Steam/Ryzen7/RTX3060

 

Unfortunately, save game cancelling custom weather settings has been a thing for a long time. Save game doesn’t really save a whole lot of stuff. Other than saving your current location, that’s about all it saves. Weather gets erased, time is reset to 12:00:00 and cab switches are often reset meaning you have to setup the engine again and use GodMode to reset the weather and time. There has been little to no discussion on if any of the save game issues are going to be fixed anytime soon.