New Content From Dtg Suddenly Feels Very Underwhelming.

With JT’s route we have finally seen what TSW is capable of, and what can be delivered in a route. Every aspect of BPO is far superior to anything we have seen from DTG. The attention to detail, the scenery, the playability.

And most importantly for me, variety. Finally we have stuff to keep us interested and not just 1 train doing the same service pattern on a route that feels completely dead.

And it’s also a route that’s not completely riddled with bugs and issues. And any bugs that are there, JT have already made it clear they will be fixed. And I trust them.

I fully understand that DTG doesn’t have the time or resources to fill a route with as much detail as JT have. But the truth is, with the advent of more third parties and now the editor, I struggle to see how content from DTG is going to be appealing in any way. Unless you really despise British trains or you’re a diehard German fan, I can’t see many people choosing Maintalbahn over Blackpool.

This isn’t a bash at DTG, and certainly not a bash at the people making said content. Their work is still massively appreciated and welcome. I just think now we are potentially at a turning point with TSW, whereby third parties and independent developers are going to take over.

Just some of my thoughts in light of what we’ve seen over the past few days and weeks.

 

Not all routes are made equal. I doubt DTG spent anywhere close to the 18 months BPO took on the new route. Probably like a third of it.
But it's not really as "big" a route. Dtg can make some very good routes, look at SEHS Extended. I still think it's the best overall route in the game, albeit needing a bug fixing spree after its transfer to TSW4.
Dresden-Riesa is also a very, very good route. These both have detail, variety and content.

 

its easy for just trains to spend more time with a route as dovetail are the main part of the game and have less time to build stuff due to them having to fix issues and work on more then just 1 route each year as someone that knows just trains history they work on routes even on train sim classic on around a 12 month span so of course the detail and quality will be better also when u run a business its all about the $$$ and as someone who runs on knows this very well so idk what your on about because over the past 12 months we seen some great releases with Linke Rheinstrecke being at the top of that list so yeah to be up fron they work on each route around 3-6months but clear need a better team with exp and not school leavers that think they know it all

 

I think some routes have potential.

Harlem if they include Yankee Stadium.

NJ Transit if they add the Princeton Dinky and extend it.

Great Western Express if it also gets an extension.

That's all up to the head honcho and if he wants to put as much as time and effort into it instead of just sitting on streams.

 

'If' but we all know from past experience that DTG has a fire-and-forget tendency with their routes.

 

I think it’s very important to remember 18 months was a lot about getting to know the tools and start from square 1.

DTG are not starting from square 1 on latest routes, so saying 18 Months is what they would need isn’t a correct calculation.

edit: that’s before any calculations for general estimates based on development team size

 

Easy to see who you are referring to, it’s very wrong to think whether theirs streams or not will make every release grand, as far as I’m aware DTG isn’t run entirely by the lone professor, to my knowledge he doesn’t place every scenery asset or model and program every loco and build every timetable.

 

As those who respond on the threads where I post frequently know, my frustration comes from the lack of a response on that thread after he asked me what was wrong and never responded while he did so with other posters.

That's being rude and disrespectful and even the route isn't supported, any response would have been (and still would be appreciated) regardless of its content.

If he did, I'd probably cease to post this sort of stuff. Not going off-track, especially to your post, but he has a hand in every facet of the game down to the example I just posted.

 

Not sure what you mean by “route supported”

can’t see how whether a question got responded to on a forum would be related to route release/building regardless.

no one person is the reason for bugs, and as far as I’m aware route release dates don’t get decided by those who build them, that will come down from the very top levels if a route is felt unfinished and released.

 

Sweeping statements like the OP's are rarely accurate or very useful. Many posters are being rather carried away.

Blackpool Branches may be very good, even among the best of TSW, but perhaps we're forgetting about some very good routes produced by DTG such as Sand Patch Grade, BML, BPE, NTP and TVL for example.

Some who are newer to the game may not remember these early routes. BML, for instance, was touted as sliced bread a few years ago and still is by many. And I personally think SPG is still overall the class of TSW.

As I said, I think a lot of people are displaying an excessive degree of emotion over the Blackpool route. Excellent though it may be, there are other developers ( including DTG ) who have been making some pretty good stuff over a longer period of time who also deserve some credit.

 

there’s no reply so I have to ask who “you” refers to ?

theirs also the part about the avatar

“Judging by your avatar”

OP don’t exactly have an Avatar to what I know, more scenery to my perception so maybe fair to assume you refer to me ?

 

This is the same reality that TSC exists within, DTG’s base content is second to third party content.

DTG really aren’t bothered since a good chunk of it is used to access the third party content anyway.

it’s also not to say that all DTG content is ‘bad’ lots of it offers a different experience, is more frequent & there are some very good ones.

 

That’s just the thing though. They do. With a team of well over 100, which has been documented on here before, I’d assume much larger than the team at JT. DTG just chooses to release a route at bare minimum quality or just above that and really not use their development team to its fullest potential. I’d say Antelope Valley was actually done fairly well, despite all the bugs and issues it needs fixed. Routes are often released and then forgotten about never receiving any major bug fixes, improvements, updates, extensions, etc. They’re always laser focused on the next thing to release, often for us to pay money for. There’s no money to be made in route updates and bug fixes. It’s not bashing on DTG as you said. It’s just speaking how it is and what a vast majority of us have become accustomed to at this point. JT and other 3rd party developers are likely to release content at a greater quality and go back and constantly edit that content and give it attention. Especially as TSW4 grows and more 3rd party developers are able to work with it.

Of course, developers are gonna start working on great routes now and they’ll be finished by the time TSW6 or TSW7 releases when DTG is no longer offering support and updates for TSW4.

Not to mention the lack of basic communication with us on here as of late. Unless of course it involves being featured in an upcoming social media post.

 

I also think pretty much all DTG content is better than what Rivet churns out for example. DTGs quality is relatively consistent.

 

definitely got a higher patch release rate.

 

Not aimed at any individual. I have edited my post to make it clearer. Thanks.

 

no issue from me, just wasn’t sure

my profile picture was from google after I went on an 800 series, no relation to TSW, I started TSW around about release date for Founders Edition Xbox One

 

I'm quite pleased with ECML, Vorarlberg and Antelope Valley. Not underwhelming at all. Add Glossop and SEHS, DTG's routes are getting better and better imho.

 

Relax. Not referring to you or any individual really.

 

no problem

 

I definitely agree with regards to Antelope Valley, speaking from real world experience. They did a pretty decent job with it. I hope it’s the direction they start going in more often. It’s clear way more effort was put into it than previous content, despite the issues it does have that have yet to be addressed by them. Very, very few replies from DTG in the Antelope Valley route feedback thread.

 

Nothing so far from DTG has really impressed me overall as a whole package. Everything I've owned from them has something that just doesn't make a DLC feel, really good.

Sadly the closest DLC I think that was pretty mostly decent was Skyhooks Games Norfolk Southern heritage pack. (Though I'm not really happy about their 2 route either)

 

1 Route from each of the “big 3” from DTG what I think are most impressive the most to me, not including issues etc

Brighton Mainline
Riesa Dresden (minus the Flughafen issue)
NY Trenton

 

What's sad is the tunnel that appears on the film doesn't appear in the route and is just a dent in the hills.

 

But that crossing (though looking a bit different) is in the game, just a bit southwest of Acton.

 

Hah! Looks different today for sure! Does not have lights or gates anymore. It’s virtually never used by vehicles. I’d have to look at my timetable but I think it’s just a service access road. This is looking railroad westbound (northbound for Metrolink trains) getting fairly close to Vista Canyon!

 

If only the Southern Pacific trains were....

SD35s, SD39, SD40s, SD9, and a U30C
https://cinetrains.wordpress.com/20...d-trains-southern-pacific-in-spielbergs-duel/

 

The entire employee count you see online includes employees who are not developers and not involved in creating routes. They are also working on different games at once such as catan, tsc (less dlc, but engine overhauls) and possibly other projects. Within the number that work on tsw, there are more teams that work on different countries and different parts of the game. It may seem like a big number, but the actual teams would be smaller

 

A bit of punctuation would help make your post clearer.

 

I just tried reading it and it gives me a headache.

 

A couple of things;

1. I bet DTG spent close to 18 months on CSX:HH. BPO is JT’s first route remember. Also, how many goes have DTG had at SEHS and DRA? SEHS is good but it is still bug ridden to hell and looks very ropey in some areas. Also, never forget how SEHS was when it first came out. Putting it politely, it was an absolute mess! Stack release day SEHS against release day BPO. No comparison.
2. Not only does it look better than anything DTG have done (the distant scenery is incredible), it also runs really nicely indeed
3. As I knew they would, JT have made many custom assets where they are required which add immensely to the route. They’ve always done this and by God does it make a difference, every time I drive along it I’m seeing new custom stuff that just makes the route feel so much more authentic. No more copy and paste of the same tired old low res assets that DTG keep doing. Look at the variety of housing for example. Finally, a route that doesn’t have the warehouse from NTP or the converted American office block from TSC liberally splattered across it
4. It is staggering but not at all surprising that straight out of the starting block JT have got the train lighting set up perfectly. No nuclear interiors, no passengers with glowing hair, headlights that look right and cast a realistic light, cab lights that look correct instead of like a night-sun on a Police helicopter, destination lights that work in all weathers, instrument lights that equally work in all weathers at the correct brightness levels and little details like the red bezel around the door release button. Just fantastic.
5. The care and attention to detail that JT have put into this route is exactly what this game needs. I’m sorry, but JT is a small team. DTG is a big company and there is no excuse (certainly not one of ‘resources’ or ‘business plan’) for DTG to be churning out bug-ridden and careless work like we see all too often. It has always been thus though, and the same ever since I first bought TSC. DTG’s content almost always fell a long way short of what third party developers were achieving with the same tools. DTG have undoubtedly got better, but it cannot be right after all DTGs excuses (TSW is hard!) that a third party can come in and knock it out of the park on their first go.

I knew BPO would be amazing and it’s turned out to be exactly that. In every aspect of the route JT have applied their customary levels of care and effort and they deserve to outsell everything that has come before it. Now it’s time for DTG to cut the BS and start hitting these same levels of fidelity and care.

It’s not just DTG though. Rivet and Skyhook (particularly) need to get their act together big time. Remember when Andrew/Jayne from Skyhook said there was no line side foliage or clutter on MML for performance reasons? We all knew at the time that was absolute horse excrement, and now we have conclusive proof that that is the case. JT have done exactly what I hoped they would and proved it can be done. More importantly they have proved the engine can take it and the tools can do it, so there really are no more excuses.

After 2 whole days since BPO’s release DTG are already trailing the next DLC. Let’s see how that stacks up against BPO but if this doesn’t highlight that this release schedule is just too much nothing will. 3 new routes in September, at least 2 in November and so on. There aren’t enough hours in the day to play this stuff. Less routes but higher quality and I’m sure overall sales would increase. If that new German route was coming at the back end of December and was going to be at the same level of quality as BPO I would buy it. As it is there’s no chance.

 

I think DTG certainly has the same (or close the same) quality level as jt.

I rather question their business decisions. Jt finally saw the potential of having all the br diesels "unused".
Dtg might think the era doesnt sell good, but what they expect? Fire and forget, next dlc: fire and forget.

The result is empty routes left behind with using 5% of its potential gsmeplaywise. Mostly a pity because a lot of effort went into research and route building.

What JTs route makes successfull in my opinion:
- using a lot of available era stock for variety. Thats how it should be!!
- interesting route with branches and a "small" network.
- tons of surprises (3 liveries of the pacer, 2 variants of the pacer)
- love to detail and at the bottom using the routes potential to bring it alive.

TSW needed fresh air and JT delivered a product way beyond my expectations. Finally a dlc without poor excuses.

 

If DTG had made BPO;

- There would have been one Pacer livery and one set of sounds. It would have been full of issues, most likely the lighting. The AWS would have ‘binged’ after the self-test.
- The Class 47 would have been reused exactly as is. No new liveries, no improvements to the physics etc
- No improvements would have been made to any of the other rolling stock
- The many custom assets across the route would not exist. Instead they would be copied and pasted from previous DLC
- There would be no signal box interiors
- There would be no announcements, no guard buzzer
- It would be riddled with bugs. I’m genuinely yet to see anything that I would consider feeding back as an issue yet. Maybe a couple of very minor things but it is, to all intents and purposes, bug free

…and so on.

The gulf in care and attention to detail is plain to see, there’s no denying it. It’s such a breath of fresh air to have a route that is unashamedly good, a dev team that know it’s good, are proud of it and enthusiastic about showing it off and a customer base that are universal in their praise. Who would have thought eh?

 

Old content substitution into new products is a key feature. It took them long to realize that.

 

With many releases they were even hiding behind the explanation "we currently dont have the proper rolling stock" for this layer etc.

Ny trenton was the final evidence this was a cheap low excuse for doing the minimal effort like they do always (no lirr a.i, no freight, probably without the s.hitstorm it would still be in the state after release).

I still remember saying them there was left space for the class 700 on l2b.

 

Not forgetting that detail has come at something of a performance price including the CTD’s or BSOD that some of us have experienced around Preston. Still under investigation but filling a tile with loads of objects or high poly structures goes against the principles of optimisation. The JT guy admitted last night they think they know what might be causing the Preston crash but not optimistic it could be fixed. Possibly a core issue jarring with something they put in the route. So for the moment, rather than lose the window, I’ve refunded it but with the caveat I will immediately rebuy if and when the crashing gets sorted.

 

Was the crash reproducible? I've had no issues, and already made 200 miles on the route. Are you playing on a laptop?

 

That’s the thing, no. Not had a single crash on the route. Obviously something caused Vern’s system to crash but if I’m reading it right he played it once and it crashed. He then didn’t try again and refunded it. So it’s one crash one time which hasn’t been replicated. You didn’t even try again with slightly lowered settings, it might just be that it’s too much for your PC at that point. Am I wrong?

If there was something fundamentally wrong with BPO it would be crashing for everyone 100% of the time and it would be consistently reproducible in the same place. It’s disingenuous to say there’s something wrong because of a single crash when demonstrably that isn’t the case.

 

I doubt they'll make any changes to the route if two or three players report a crash, with one stating it wasn't happening on the second run. Could be something interfered with shader caching, but I don't know. If a console game crashes, it's 99% the game. On PC, things are different. Logfiles are needed.

I'm experiencing infrequent (not very often to be an issue) crashes on two routes only, that's MML and Peninsula Corridor. Just normal UE crashes, but never a BSOD (haven't had that since Windows XP) or freeze.

 

No I didn’t replay it as I was uneasy about subjecting the PC to another catastrophic crash. JT have now admitted there may be an issue with a PIS setup which is causing the crash to occur. As I said, unless JT, DTG or Steam want to make an exception, any further playtime would have removed the option to refund. And I will rebuy if/when this problem is addressed.

And no, not playing on a laptop but the main gaming PC which has never had TSW (4 or the earlier versions) ever crash in that manner and can run various other “A” gaming titles even MSFS without anything like that happen. In fact last night I went back to Snowrunner and played for nearly an hour and never even heard the GPU or case fans spool up despite the highly detailed graphics.

The only other game which has given me a CTD in recent times was TSC running, ironically, JT’s Metropolitan Line in the Finchley Road area, apparently another known issue with a product from this company which has never been sorted.

 

But that’s my point. There isn’t a problem, there was a problem for you, once. You don’t know if it was a reproducible crash because you didn’t try it a second time. Other people that crashed at Preston said it worked fine the second time but you refunded it so can’t verify whether or not that is the case.

All I’m saying is I think it’s a bit unfair to go on multiple threads decrying the route as having killed your PC (even suggesting it might have damaged your hardware) when it would appear you’re pretty much the only one to have had the problem that then hasn’t worked on a second go. There may well be a PIS issue, but for the overwhelming majority this isn’t causing a crash. Can you not see my point?

 

So what are you suggesting? That I rebuy the route regardless, pick up the save game and see what happens?

And I am not decrying the route per se, the work JT have done is magnificent and so is the Class 142 together with the classic traction levels. So yes I can see your point but ask in return you acknowledge mine - that this type of experience creates a massive Catch 22 vs. continuing to test and taking the chance the problem will still manifest.

Going to think it over during the day, see what if anything JT report today and make an informed decision about a rebuy.

 

No, I get it. I’ve been up against that 2hr window myself before & it’s a pain. I just think you’d have been better off trying it again to see if you could reproduce it than experiencing it the once and refunding it.

 

I will more than likely bite the bullet later and report back my findings.

 

I have the route, and love it. Its my era. Its trains as I remember them. JT have clearly done a great job.

Regardless of anyone's opinions on different developers and routes, we can only hope that the quality of the PBO route has a knock on effect throughout the TSW universe.
You would hope that developers look at other developers products and think, can we do that? Can we be better? How did they do that?
With the extra 3rd party's on board, all working towards a similar goal, sharing ideas and skill sets, there is no reason why DLC can't continue to improve.
Is that stupidly optimistic given DTG`s chequered history? Possibly.
But at the end of the day, DTG need the 3rd parties, and the 3rd parties need DTG.

 

... just throwing in that the official acronym is PBO - Preston-Blackpool-Ormskirk (the major station named first).

 

Have disciplined myself and edited.

 

No big deal - PBO instantly lets you think of Peterborough, that's why some prefer BPO I guess.

 

Just to point out. If you are actually getting frequent crashes, Steam will refund out of the 2 hour window. I've had a refund at 5 hours before, and some people have had them at up to 10 hours.
The 2 hour window is just for an automatic refund, with no reason needed. If you're actually experiencing issues beyond "I don't like it" you will still get a refund, unless you've got a LOT of time in it.