Going to preface this by saying that this is not a rant against DTG or the concept of them bringing out a new game one year after the last one. I've been lurking around the forums for a while, we knew it was coming, was I thrilled about it? not hugely. Did I understand why it was happening? absolutely. With that said, I can't help but feel a bit underwhelmed in regards to the new features that TSW4 is bringing to the table. I just get the impression that a bunch of these features could have been part of a free core update to TSW3 and I'm curious to know if anyone else shares these sentiments or what your guys' thoughts are on the matter. I know I've just used the phrase 'free core update' - Don't worry guys, I've read the forums, I know that they can't work for free. But we live in the year of Derail Valley Simulator releasing, with it's monumental list of new features, included in a free core update. Other games manage to have big new features added in free updates too. (ETS2 got an official multiplayer added 9 years after the game's release for example) So it is possible for games to get free updates. It's not that I think they shouldn't have done a paid update, it's that I feel like it should have had a bit more substance. Here's a list of all of TSW4's new features, as per their FAQ & my thoughts on them and after that I'll go into what I think TSW4 could have been. Training Centre, Scenarios, Timetables & Journey Mode - all existing features in TSW3 obviously Photo Mode - yeah I can get behind this. A nice new feature for sure. Did it have to be paid or could they have slipped it in a free update? Free Roam Mode - Probably one of the biggest new features, I can see why it would be included in a paid update. Livery Designer 2.0 - we get a tickbox to disable liveries, easier to make text, an undo button & more layers. That doesn't feel like a huge update, could have been a free update IMO. Scenario Planner 2.0 - We get AI portals and the ability to reverse train services. But only on new Routes. Going to put it on the 'free update' pile. New Scoring System - Alright, definitely a change, were lots of people asking for this? (genuine question). Personally, not a feature I really care about. I could see how they would only want to include this in a new game to avoid causing conflicts with people's old scores. Dynamic Weather - TSW3 feature Volumetric fog - Cool addition, only included on new routes. Could this not have been a blanket feature for all routes with TOD4 compatibility? New Rain Effects - To me, this just seems like the resolution of the rain textures has been increased, I can't imagine it being a huge change requiring a new game. New Cinematic Moments in new Scenarios - I don't even know what this is, the FAQ doesn't link to more info either (anyone know?) Improved OHLE rendering - They said in the stream that this was a model change as opposed to a new visual effect, and is only included on new routes - I'd class this as a feature of the new routes rather than a feature of the game. Improved User Interface & Hud - It's definitely been changed, is it improved? I'll put that down to a matter of taste, I wasn't convinced by what was shown on the stream. This could've been a free update. New Player Assists - Cool, stuff like this is always welcome. Saw someone mention that locking accessibility options behind the paywall of a new game isn't amazing & I'm inclined to agree Enhanced Haptic Feedback - this is nice, especially the PS controller features. I'll never notice it because I'm on a PC & using a Keyboard Advanced PC Editor - This is genuinely really good news and is in my opinion the best thing DTG has done for TSW in years.. With that said, it's a separate download from the Epic Games Launcher, I refuse to believe that they couldn't have made it work with TSW3. So basically, I think everything other than the Free Roam and New Scoring System could have feasibly been added to TSW3 as a free update. Perhaps there's arguments for Photo Mode & the Haptic Feedback requiring a new game too. (Also PC will now have access to the full scenario & train editors, which will probably mean fewer PC users will be using Scenario Planner 2.0 and Livery Designer 2.0, making those updates a bit redundant for PC users) All of the new TSW features feel a bit shallow, like nothing significant really changed. Imagine if DTG did add all these things a free update, it would only be positive PR for DTG. Even if it didn't all come in one update, they could have had multiple updates throughout the year with each one adding one or two new things, I doubt many people would be complaining about getting these new things as updates to TSW3. It's not exactly difficult to work out that the real reason we're getting a new game is most likely so that DTG gets a bit of a cash injection. Considering how vocal some people are about their disapproval of the new game, I do wonder if the cash coming in from new game sales is worth taking the hate that it generates, based on the track record so far, I suppose it must. Despite this, I feel like DTG would have a much easier time if they did more stuff to make their community actually appreciate the work they're doing. As it stands, TSW4's new features feel like slight upgrades of stuff we already had, and with so many new features only being useful in the new routes, it feels more like they could have had more success marketing them as new route features rather than game features. Then they can release the new game features in a free patch as a token to show everyone how much DTG cares about their community and improving their game. I've seen a few people saying that TSW4 is good because the new routes are good. Personally, I'm not including the new routes in TSW4's list of 'features'. Because let's be honest, the new routes have nothing new to separate them from TSW3 routes. Vorarlberg has some new tech that make the mountains look better, and they've all got Volumetric fog, but other than that, who's to say they couldn't have been released as any old TSW3 DLC? As a quick side note, the routes are a bit of a let down too, probably as a result of DTG rushing to make 3 routes at once, we've got A UK route that looks like 90% of the scenery could've been auto-generated, and a US route that seems to use mostly the same assets as previous routes & apparently only has like 30 timetable services. The UK route could've been a significantly more interesting section of the ECML, either by including it's London Terminus (More scenery variety + Drivable class 700 layers + much more future layer/DLC potential) or by including York and the NRM (Think of the gameplay potential that the NRM could bring, especially considering the Flying Scotsman DLC is included, could have had some really unique scenarios) So, with all that said, what do I think TSW4 could/should have been? TSW3 had all the new Weather Effects as it's big new feature, I think TSW4 should have had something similar. Something to give it a bit of identity (yeah they've added free roam, but is that really a selling point?). Adding a proper guard mode would probably be a good example. I personally wouldn't really care for a guard mode, but lots of people clearly do. The Glossop line shows that DTG are thinking about it's possibilities. DTG have proven that it's possible in practise, they could take that, tidy it up and flesh it out into an actual full on feature with it's own separate 'mode'. All three TSW4 routes are passenger oriented, so it would've been a great time to add it. It would add a whole new gameplay aspect and would really justify the whole new game. But alas, that's not where we are. Will I probably end up buying TSW4? yeah. But only for it's future routes (Just Trains' upcoming UK route in particular). I personally don't have much interest in TSW4's routes (ECML being better would've swung me the other way) so I won't be getting it for those. I can also live without TSW4's new game features. But I will want Future routes, so in that regard DTG's tactics are working flawlessly. I completely understand the need to release a new game, I'm even happy to have them yearly. But if I'm being forced into getting a new game in order to keep buying the newest routes, I'd like them to have something that separates them from the games that came before. TSW3 had just enough for me to feel it was justified, unfortunately I can't say the same for TSW4. Apologies for making this so long. curious to hear your guys' thoughts.
Whenever they talk about these kind of features, it usually involves something along the lines "we developed / are developing the tech behind it", with the idea it can reused in many routes. But that sort of assumes they have the bandwidth to follow through. I dont think they do. Do any of the new routes have working elevators? Or train announcements? Working Pianos? Guard Mode? "Rush" Hour passengers?
You're not wrong. And those saying that devs don't work for free is a farce. TSW3 and 4 never needed to exist. Core updates are an investment into your existing game. Abandoning and paywalling fixes (now yearly?) for the same game is just shady business. And DTG doesn't work for free. Continuous new and existing route sales would keep them going. But who knows what kind of looney tunes nonsense discussions go on at their HQ.
Great post bricksathome I hope DTG read this and treat it as constructive feedback. I agree with everything you have said here as a long term TSW player. There's no reason at all 90% of the TSW4 feature set could not have been included in TSW3 as a core update. My wish is one day the numbering is abandoned and we just get a 'Train Sim World" which is updated annually with route DLCs bundled optionally (ie how Train Sim Classic is now). Until DTG are seeing significant profits and not needing this annual cash injection, this may be a long time off though
I don't understand? I hear this question a lot. I feel a bit hurt as no one in the community seems to read my posts. I have been demanding this for like ever. I have started mocking the scoring system probably a few months after started playing. Whenever I raised the topic I thought everyone was on board with this. Seems now only a few people were reading my posts. I used the scoring system even as mic drops when real train drivers were telling me an idea I'm pitching is not realistic. Then I would ask them if they really received gold medals at the end of their shift. And now everyone is now asking who that one person was who asked for this. Well it was me! Sue me
And me.. Its always been about driving safely in game for me. Immersion isnt driving "The Hud". Its driving the train, with no HUD, and doing that safely. Now the scoring system does exactly that, but sadly its locked behind a paywall for some DLC that I would need to buy that I dont want in order to get it. Maybe at some point but probably not as Im not going to pay for a bundle that likely will have only months of shelf life left by that point before it becomes abandonware ala TSW3.
I have a theory... With the editor public, fixes and extensions(ECML?) can be created 'free' by the community, uploaded to DTG for testing and release. It's evident DTG can't keep maintaining old stock, too costly, so slim down the operation. Also, provide 'skeleton' routes for modders to flesh out. It's often said released routes "should've, could've". Probably years away, but a feasible future, and I'm console so I'll be pushing up the daisies before fruition.
Agree. I have also been critical of the very liberal scoring with no penalties or consequences for poor or unsafe driving. Obviously we don’t want TSC style career scoring where you lose 500 points for being a minute late but the current system is massively flawed. Not least where a 40 minute run on Bakerloo Line gives you three or four times more AP than 90 minutes spent wrestling a heavy freight over Clinchfield or SPG. As regards the OP title, I am the polar opposite. I feel TSW4 is a substantial and comprehensive update, not least with the editor package it is maturing into the game we wanted to see and could become the first choice sim for many going forward.
Well I'm glad you asked for it because I think it's a neat idea. Why should I get a gold medal after 5 hard emergency stops just because my train never went above speed limit. That engineer would be getting an earful from the workers that maintain the cars and couplers for one!
Please support DTG because they aren't Rockstar Games or Bethesda or EA.... TSW3 was such a good release it is like a sequel to Die Hard or Lethal Weapon (Lethal Weapon sequels weren't too bad IMO) or The Matrix etc.... It is pretty hard when you release 3 legendary routes, Cajon Pass, South Eastern High Speed and Kassel Wurzberg! I'm excited about the routes though even the US one. There will be a freight one coming soon I'm confident because they need to keep the freight fraternity satisfied. BIG SMILE I have just seen gameplay footage and it looks absolutely glorious! You can get hung up on the details if you like, but the team at DTG do such a good job. Don't get on the bash TSW bandwagon. The budget isn't huge and we need more players. With every year and word of mouth it will happen.
Please don't support DTG because they aren't SCS or Asobo or Giants.... TSW3 was such a bad release it is like a sequel to a game that performed better in many respects etc.... It is pretty funny when you release 3 legendary routes, Cajon Pass, South Eastern High Speed and Kassel Wurzberg and do a half assed job with them. I'm still waiting for promised patches that will now never come. There will be a freight one coming soon, because duhh why wouldn't they? I have just seen gameplay footage and it looks just the same as TSW3. You can get hung up on the details if you like, but the team at DTG do such a good job at lying to their current and prospective customers. Do get on the bash TSW bandwagon, perhaps it will knock some sense into them. The budget isn't the issue, the deceit is. And we need more players to let DTG know this isn't an ethical business practice. With every year and word of mouth it will happen: DTG's reputation will continue to be dragged through the mud and be a laughing stock in the gaming community.
StrikeEagle78 , you should probably consult a doctor, because that hate-boner has lasted well over four hours.
Can we just decide for ourselves what we want? I don't get why I should change my mind. Wouldn't it be weird if I asked you to please preorder TSW4 because I liked what I saw so so should you? To me it sounds weird bit I'll give it a go and maybe it does work Would you please want to preorder TSW4 so DTG knows they are on the right track and should continue like this? Please? I can do a cute puppyface maybe
Derial is PC only and us console players don’t have the choices you PC guys do. I think the console players perspective is at odds with PC guys (imagine that!) as we have less sales and competition on consoles. Less deep discount sales too. Free Roam alone makes it worth the upgrade imo. Not sure if this has been a PC feature for a while or not, but on console this is a whole new mode to mess around in and I can’t wait. Basically getting the game for this and the rest is gravy. Dresden being improved and three new routes and new Locos all add up to a must buy for me. Especially for $40. It’s a no brainer if you’re a fan or the game. I love the improvements to the Scoring System and driver assists too. Knowing they reworked fog and weather on maps and haptic feedback plus less visual noise on the wires are all improvements I’m excited to see as well. I can see being upset if there was only one route, but this is plenty of content imo, a good balance of content for the price.
I think that it is TSW3 which was not worth being a whole new version. TSW4 feels like more of a version update than TSW3, I almost regret buying TSW3 because going from TSW2 to TSW4 would feel much more worth it. Even some of the new features in TSW3 are being finished off or added to here, and the TSW2 features are all being upgraded to 2.0. All TOD4 routes will get volumetric fog, which is why I am saying its like TSW4 finishes off some of the innovations TSW3 began. Formation designer is going to be a huge thing too, people have been asking for a consist editor forever. I like the whole play it your way vibe and it also closes the gap on TSC in terms of freedom to use your collection and opens the way for more people to be creating content. The upsurge in Scenario planner after the 700 release was very noticable with many people making BML scenarios for the 700. With the new tools even better scenarios will be available with custom formations and higher quality livieries and even editor made content.
I would say this version seems to be bringing more than TSW3, the editor for example, something that has been oft requested on here and has been the source of much anger. So here it is, the editor is coming but we shall find things to complain about with that now! The scoring systems is ridiculous, getting points for breaking the speed limit! I got points for speeding in a Maestro diesel once but not the same kind of points. What is this obsession with Derail Valley, can you drive a class 101 across the Pennines in it or take a ICE on a high speed run through rural Germany?
I agree with you in a sense, TSW 4 feels like it’s brining better community tools with the formation designer, upgraded scenario planner (portal & route chaining is huge here) & the editor. Also there is the new scenery tool they’re using which should give us better graphics, in the sense that much more of the route looks rendered. The thing that TSW 3 did though was bring us routes going over the 50 mile mark, TSW 2 seemed to give the impression that we were forever stuck with ‘long’ routes being 40 miles. TSW 3 delivered with a huge improvement to the series just on that alone. I think both have milestones which mark good progress, but I do think 4 could have stayed as 3, which in turn would of made 3 a clear upgrade from 2 & defined it very well within the TSW series. Both 3&4 alone don’t really do that.
I have to agree. On one side are the gushing, cringeworthy accolades and in the other corner the dark, sometimes mean- spirited put-downs. Both are equally distasteful
In the recent past, DTG have been accused of rushing products out the door unfinished or buggy, before they were ready for prime time. The new TSW4 routes have had plenty of development time so they ought to be much less troublesome. I would imagine the contents of TSW4 have been in development for just about the entire year since TSW3 was launched.
SEHS:E has had a lot of attention since it dropped so I’ll be confident in ECML. Lucas is very skilled with the German side of things, so (ya ya I know it’s Austrian) I’m confident in the OBB route too, aswell as the Vectron, no word on any involvement from Maik though? The US routes usually fall down IMO, however there was something about Peninsular Corridor that really clicked with me so I do remain optimistic about this one. As for the rest of it, I’m a little nervous that some of the stuff won’t release until after launch, would of been nice to experience the new suspension from day 1, aswell as getting to play around with the formation editor.
Imagine having to wait another year to have all this in the game. They could have just gone on holiday for a year whilst we were waiting for improvements and we would have never known it was already finished a year earlier
My main issue is that I didn’t really want the TSW3 upgrade last time, I’m not really interested in driving the German or US routes, I already had SEHS and the 465 and wasn’t too fussed about the extension considering no new stock was added. Fast forward a few months and Birmingham Cross City line is released! Now this I wanted, the cheapest way of getting it was in a bundle with SEHS, Spirit of Steam and Cross City. I think it cost about £39.99. (And already had Sprit of Steam!) Then I had to transfer all my other routes from TSW2 to TSW3! I wasn't really interested in the Edinburgh Glasgow route as it looks like a Cathcart type route with very little layering, I’m not into ultra modern commuter EMUs so I gave it a miss. The new TSW4 routes don’t really hold too much appeal, I’d rather drive end to end than meet up and take over / let go to AI. I also tend to buy items that can layer into other routes to add variety and a bit more interest. I don’t use Scenario Planner as setting up one scenario to run through seems a bit linear. I’ll hold off for now but I really like the look of the JT route and as a fan of 2nd Gen DMUs and 80s traction in general, this is right up my street. However, as this is a JT release I dare say it won’t be included in a bundle, so I will have to buy at least the cheapest version of TSW4 to be able to buy the new route at possibly £19.99 (if I’m lucky), less than a year since I bought the last upgrade! And as a console player I wont be able to edit routes.
If you had 5 jumpers and saved all their lives by correctly applying the emergency brake, I think that's well worth a gold medal
Nah unfortunately this is more of a "I've had a few beers and oh LOVE there's a red signal in half a mile" kind of emergency stop.
I agree that there is a solid case for it being a free upgrade, particularly if you look at the features individually. If you look at them all together, I think it's justified to have a seperate installment. TSW4 is what deserves a new installment - not a (basic) Scenario/Livery Designer [TSW2], not a (basic) Dynamic Weather feature [TSW3] - but a fundamental change to the game as TSW4 provides. The main issue is that the (rather pointless) TSW3 release only a year ago makes the timescale a huge frustration. Great post, however.
There is zero evidence of this. The content may have just been created in the past few months. Remember when TSW3 was launched, trains and scenery were popping in as you passed them. Still happens to this day on KSW. And will this new version be properly optimized? No idea. I'll be happy to observe videos as they come next month to see if it's just a rinse repeat of last year's launch. After many let downs and lies I tend to automatically believe that this version will run the same as last year's which will ensure I take a seat again.
The game is stuttering a bit even in the previes videos and you can see obvious scenery pop-in. In the trailer for the US route you can even see a weird flashing issue with the windshield on the locomotive. So jusging by that, I would not expect much quality control from these releases either.
Im giving some slack on the lighting etc as it maywell need fully implementing yet. I am very concerned about performance now, it’s great that DTG is doing things like volumetric fog, better rendering of OHLE & more detailed scenery further out. But they seemingly have done nothing to address FPS dips, ever increasing stutters & overall degraded performance. Continuously adding without finding a way to correct some frankly, very poor optimisation, is annoying me quite a lot now.
4 will run on the same engine as 3, and I see no reason to expect that LOD or stuttering will change. But that's not a question of "quality control," but rather the limitations of said engine.
Lol, no. There is not much engine limitation at fault here. It's a known fact that TSW has been put together quite wonky and not in the most optimal way. DTG has made a pretty good job at building thr base of a train simulator in Unreal Engine, but they never went beyond to utilize it properly and fully. For example, once there was a thread that demonstrated how the game loads some of the scenery at full detail, regardless of actual distance and graphics settings. Can you imagine the peformance hit this creates? Obviously one cannot say for sure without actually seeing everythinf, but I would assume there is plenty of room for optimalization, were they take the time to work on it.
I'll preface my own comment by saying I love TSW - although I also love Derail Valley and Trainz 2022 - and I know what a lot of work goes into making these sims. For my money, I'd have liked them to have included bug fixes that have been part of the previous 2 iterations of the game, rather than release with the same bugs intact. I was reprimanded for 'whining' about a loco having the banking comm feature broken. I mentioned it several times, at intervals, and mentioned it being on their to-do list - for TWO YEARS - but it soon became obvious to me that DTG are more concerned with rushing out new routes, one after the other - often complete with new bugs - and putting out new versions of the game, also with new bugs rather than actually address the problems the end-user is having and has had for way too long now. To keep being told "This is on our to-do list" then being ignored, is a really bad way to run a business. I run a tech company, and if I told one of my clients his system faults are at the top of my to-do list - THEN ignored him for months, I'm afraid I wouldn't be in business for too much longer. As I said, I love TSW and (despite saying I wouldn't) I have them all - plus £500+ of DLC. For spending that amount, do I deserve preferential treatment? No. Do I deserve at least a real effort to address problems that have been hanging around for years? I'd say yes.
Derail Valley is a game not a simulation IMO. For the reason that it encourages you to drive fast on the basis that you will get more money for completing your contract and hence most likely crash the train in flames, hence the title. It is not a railway simulator of any railway I know of except maybe in some Hollywood action movie.
Personally, yeah I agree that TSW4 is underwhelming - but I thought that already before buying it, at least considering the new features. I was looking forward to Vorarlberg though, so I thought of it as just buying another route. Vorarlberg cured me from buying DTG routes day 1, maybe even for good. In the end the route is just lacklustre and boring, especially compared to Niddertalbahn, and from what I’ve seen and read the same goes for Maintalbahn. These routes are not cheap and you wouldn’t say that if you look at them, unfortunately. I wouldn’t call them shovelware, but the thought has been occurring to me lately. There are too many good games out there that I’d rather spend my money on at this point. No more run of the mill routes for me, I’ll wait for the truly special ones.
I can understand why there are those that don't like Voralberg. The scenery isn't all that great with many flat grass details, poor night lighting completely incorrect sounds on the obb 4024 talent 1 which just kills immersion, some poor scenery details. I've even see some not like it because of it being a "bus stop service" and the fact that it only comes with one train. This route could've certainly been better
I think Vorarlberg could’ve been better but honestly… There’s like 50+ routes and Vorarlberg is easily top 25 percentile… theres 52 routes not including training center and holiday elf, so the top 13 would be 25 percentile… I don’t think I can name 13 routes that are better. My top 13 in not particular order: SEHS SPG Nahverker Dresden Bakerloo (even though I don’t love playing Bakerloo often, they did an incredible job with it) Blackpool Niddertalbahn London Commuter Peninsula Corridor NTP Vorarlberg Tees Valley Boston Sprinter Bremen - Oldenburg
The problems with Vorarlberg are... It's not as scenic as the location and premise might have you believe. The chosen train is boring. Most of the runs I've done so far in Journey are tedious all stations bus service type. If it had been set back a few years and/or included some loco hauled trains then things might have been different, but just like the other two TSW4 routes quickly went from eagerly awaited, to play now and again.
