Enough Is Enough!!!

One of the devs of the UnofficialEditor was hired by DTG apparently. Can't find the thread where this was mentioned now...

 

^^^This^^^ It seems personal opinion trumps facts these days.

 

The same people said the same things about TSW4, and TSW3 for that matter. DTG specifically said they were doing one thing before TSW3 then did the exact opposite, so the argument put forward by jack that you’ve quoted falls flat on its arse the moment it’s pressure tested I’m afraid.

I agree fake news is a fundamental problem with the internet and the modern world in general but at the same time considered, critical opinion based on previous experience and behavioural patterns is not a bad thing, nor should it be dismissed as such. It is, in fact, the only thing that will stop fake news propagating. People need to think critically about things put out by supposed ‘official sources’ at whatever level more now than they ever have in human history IMHO.

 

Along with some new music and a couple boxes ticked in UE as new features

 

I think it's the constant restating and 'embellishing' of these 'critical opinions' that some of us struggle to understand. There is also a danger that past anecdotal evidence is muddled up with poorly understood, cherry-picked information gleaned from one source or another, which is then spun into a narrative that can stray into conspiracy, fake news and general howling at the moon. My main question is this: as 'important' as we're constantly being reminded that this 'discussion' is, how is it moving things forward?

 

I’d agree with you to an extent, but there are plenty of people in this thread that aren’t crossing into that crazy territory. It’s generally a cordial discussion, although admittedly certain individuals have circled the drain at times. Generally speaking it’s naturally pulled itself back on track and it would be a shame to see it closed. Experience tells us we’re all screaming into the void as DTG don’t and won’t listen, but it expressing frustration with a mediocre product makes some people feel better.

 

A kind of group therapy.

 

No I totally disagree with that statement, Unless you've got a legitimate official source it is STILL speculation, I don't heed or listen to personal opinion unless it's from the horse's mouth.

 

There are mods in tsw but it's not the developers job to ensure they work. Other games like ats also cause mods to not work with each major update. I had an engine sound mod that wouldn't work with each update and it took the modder at least a week to update it and then it would work again. They might have a steam workshop but you have to keep them updated, not the devs. Just because it's tsw doesn't make it a bad thing.

 

The point about therapy is usually to find a way out, otherwise it just becomes a cultish echo chamber.

(Tongue slightly in cheek.)

 

I see your point.
This, as much as other threads, most probably won´t yield any reaction from DTG. Let alone improvements. But then again: Since credibility seems to be a futuristic concept for the DTG management, they could come up with whatever statement and a growingly shrinking number of people would believe them.

So, what to do?

Everybody shut up? Go home, nothing to see here? Get a life? Sue them?

What´s your suggestion?

 

Trust me, my tongue was also lodged in my cheek.

 

Honestly? Get a life. I doubt if m(any) of you interact like this in 'real life' because, frankly, no one would want to know you (not 'you' personally, the general 'you'). People have a choice - buy the stuff or don't buy the stuff. If DTG aren't listening, stop supporting them financially and they'll soon learn, or it will be too late for them. Of course, the (sad) fact could be that they might have, at least to some extent, 'turned their back' on the more hardcore simmer because there is a larger market to be found with the more casual gammer who has other hobbies but also likes driving trains and is moderately interested in how it all works (I think I'm probably in that camp). Don't get me wrong, I don't like silly bugs and wish that they did better than they are, but I've also worked in 'the business' for over 30 years, so I think I have a reasonable appreciation for what is likely to be happening behind the scenes and a lot of what I read here is far from reality, or at least the reality I know.

 

Alright, fair enough!

Actually I was about to edit my post to add "... suggestion? ... Apart from the usual vote-with-your-wallet approach". But you were faster.

It seems indeed the most logical conclusion. And it seems also a growing number of players is following that advice. But it is not necessarily an option for everybody. I *am* that casual gamer and while I´ve stopped purchasing DLCs (for now), I love the chill out and relaxing moments this game provides me after a hard day´s work (Software DevOps BTW). It´s just perfect for that purpose, despite all the shortcomings. So, I do not want to see DTG vanish into cyberspace. I don´t want them in financial trouble. I want them proficient in what they do. And I want them to deliver a better product for my hard earned money.

And that´s why people like me speak their minds. Who knows, in a stupid internet forum, and why not?! Come back to a decent quality level and I´ll open the wallet again. Simple.

Right now I´m under the impression they´ve lost it, they´ve lost control over their software, they´re victims of unnecessary complexity and complications in their own product structure. In short: they´re moving (DON´T!) in quicksand and don´t know how to get out of this mess without losing large money.

 

This a important point you are making... some people on these forums seem to absolutly flabbergasted, when myself and others claim: "TSC is great!". But we are always talking about a heavily modded TSC with loads of Third Party, Freeware and modified routes, trains with soundupdates etc...

 

One of the reasons I gave up on ProMods in ETS2, despite enjoying driving around in Karelia, Northern Scandinavia, Iceland and the Faroe Islands was the constant need to update it every time SCS made a slight change to the core game.

 

I'd never give up ProMods, because for me there is no reason to not use this amazing free mod, covering so much more than vanilla ETS2.

I'm doing it the other way round, I usually wait until ProMods and the other maps I'm using (RusMap, RoadToAsia) are all updated, and only then allow ETS2 to update itself. You can choose to stick to whatever version you like using the Steam beta option.

 

I know it's a pain, but SCS will actually modify their core. Without charging for it or declaring it's a new game. All the old DLCs you have bought will still work and , as they are currently doing in ATS , they will update old content and they're not releasing DLC like they're going out of fashion.

DTG could learn a lot from SCS.

 

I may give that a try. In addition to the North, I also enjoy exploring the Middle East map.

 

I know you purposely put blinders on to any critique, but I never said it's the devs jobs to ensure mods work. However, creating an open environment for mods to be built and to flourish IS beneficial. I won't even say it's the devs duty that the must do this either. It's completely their choice. And they chose a rather closed system with expected results.

 

They seem to want their hands in every sale of anything ever related to TSW hence the lack of open modding. They did it with FSW and were laughed into oblivion. Doing it again with TSW and the trend doesn't look so great. No idea why a company can't learn from what is readily out there. Flight sim has been going decades with free and paid mods. Microsoft didn't have their hands in the pocket of every purchase, but it did drive sales for the base sim to have access to such an open platform. This time around Asobo took a new approach with having an in sim marketplace but also left 3rd parties to do as they want outside the ecosystem. Good idea! It's just short sighted thinking that has helped to ruin DTG's reputation over the years.

 

Changing the subject slightly, there are some real schollboy errors at time in this sim.

Doing a NTP run with the Class 40 to test for fuel consumption, after 5 minutes of clear weather "dynamic" weather then kicks in the usual thunderstorm from hell which never ends. That not so much the issue, but when were lightning flashes visible deep under the earth ove a mile into Standege Tunnel? If they can't get basic stuff like this right then really, what is the point of TSW?

 

Each of tsw's dlc is each it's own game which requires manual updating and the new core doesn't apply to older dlc. Whenever ats updates the core, all dlc gets the features so probably with how each map is built or common assets or whatever. I don't understand game development so idk. Even tsc core updates applies to each dlc rather than them having to update each individually as seen with the update to 64 bit and the recent overhaul. Lots of things still need to be changed but it's not individualized like tsw. I think due to how dtg built tsw, it makes things much harder

 

I do not understand how anyone can find it logical that DTG would go to the trouble of prepping and releasing an editor to the public that's hugely difficult to use and has a very steep learning curve, but deliberately cripple it so that all that learning is useless to begin with. And then waste their own time and money with master class videos? Who wins exactly?

Which isn't to say that I don't find it nonsensical that DTG did release the editor in this state, with months to wait for proper fixes. My guess is that it was intended to be fully working on release or that the wait for a patch was initially expected to be much shorter, but something happened.

 

Maybe they wanted people to get good at it and come to them with hat in hand asking to be developers for TSW content therefore getting their hands again in the pockets of every piece of content out there.

 

Even if the editor is in beta, it is shocking that you can not cook and distribute content. It doesn't make any sense and I can't see how that could be defended. The creators club was in beta before but you could still share liveries and scenarios on there without issue for the most part

 

FSW absolutely died because of Microsoft- they pulled the FSX license, and FSW was based on FSX code. It wasn't around long enough for third parties to have made a difference anyway.

 

It can be crippling. It basically locks in ancient code for fear changing it would wreck some mod.

 

There was no evidence ever shown that Microsoft pulled their licence. It could easily have been that or due to poor sales or being laughed at due to their business model by highly regarded 3rd party developers that flat out refused to play DTG's game. In the end only DTG knows and will never tell us.

 

It doesn't have to lock you into ancient code. The developer can continue to evolve an SDK as Asobo does and if things break, oh well. It's up to the developer of the add-on to fix / adapt. But at least the tools would still be out there. And when a full game change happens (like a true proper evolution) then mods are stuck with that old version and a new ecosystem evolves for the new. Examples are like farming simulator. Farm Sim 15 mods don't work with subsequent versions.

 

Oh, right. Becuse we're all still supposed to believe official sources, from DTG "We're taking a pause on new DLC to fix bugs/upgrade routes", to the WHO and almost all governments "Lockdowns are necessary, the mandatory untested vaccines will prevent you getting Covid" to the FBI "Hunter Biden's alleged laptop is Russian disinformation."

Sorry folks, we live in an age of fake news and rampant bullshit- and the Official Sources are just as unreliable as internet scuttlebutt. It's incumbent on all of us to use our brains and sort out the most credible alignment of alleged "facts," because everyone's lyin.

(Sorry if that sounds cynical; but if I learned anything from my years as a criminal lawyer it's that everyone's lyin'.)

 

One of my favourites:

"TSW2 Preservation Crew Updates
... the team are in the process of collating the updates into one patch, and when we have more for you we'll let you know."

 

Even a clifftop bungee cord would have trouble stretching as far as this logic. How good can you become if you can't even cook and try out your content? How could DTG possibly hire everyone who created content in the editor just to get their hands in their pockets? How is this better for anyone than giving people a full editor to work with?

 

I didn't say hire.

 

All this talk about mods, that seem to continue to be frowned upon and unsupported, makes me wonder. How much of the original code has received so many rewrites and bug fixes, as in rewriting the original code to fix bugs, and continuing to use that code over and over in each new iteration of TSW causes a lot of the same, constant bugs we see now. Instead of doing a complete overhaul and total rewrite of the base code.

 

This thread has moved into an echo chamber of madness. But, if it gets us to 100 pages… ‍♂️

 

A complete re-write would take a lot of time and effort at this stage. Something that should have been done to make the game more efficient and forward thinking in its infancy 3 or 4 years ago. Now they must live with their grotesque monster unless somebody with deep pockets wants to finance their years of rebuilding it all from scratch. At that point they're better off making a new game (a real one I mean, not a patch masked as one).

 

If you just look at the blueprints in the TSW Editor, everything is a copy of something, like the 642 there are TWO versions of the MFD displays, one with "New" at the end, some MFDs are copies from the 425 MFD, etc etc

 

A copy of a copy of a copy because that’s easier……

 

Hmm, the good old "someCode_working_V2_Final_USE_THIS_ONE" way of programming. Ain't it the best?

 

Actually, it is obvious that modding, especially from the freeware scene, is not desired and is knowingly blocked. An editor that is unusable for sharing content, mods that no longer work overnight. Who else would like to work at TSW?

That's right, hardly anyone and that's exactly what DTG wants. I just come to the conclusion that the editor was only announced and released to somehow justify TSW4. There wasn't much else to launch a new TSW. Nothing that couldn't have been done with a core update of TSW3.

Basically it is up to DTG how they want to run TSW. If only the in-house content were of high quality so that you wouldn't have to rely on modding in the first place. However, we are constantly receiving mediocre content, some of which is hardly playable without mods - at least for players with a little more demands. It's okay if someone just wants to drive and doesn't care much about things like sound or route design.

It just annoys me because we have already seen several times from third parties what is possible. That and only that should be the benchmark for further DLC. After all, they keep asking for a lot of money. I don't have to buy inferior content, of course. But I want TSW to not be treated so unkindly because deep down I still like him.

 

That makes zero sense. Invest hundreds of man-hours (= money) just to develop an intentionally nerfed editor, which nobody was even expecting? Makes no sense at all. And remember, Matt was a modder himself, he came into development via the modding community.

There's a technical reason for it

Even without the editor, Free Roam, the new UI and updated Livery and Scenario Designer are still more of an upgrade than TSW3 was (I don't think either of them worthy of a number or a price tag, but if 3 qualifies then so does 4).

 

I think they released the editor despite previously stating it won't be released, because of the competition announcing that their editor will be released to public after their game's exit from Early Access, allowing building routes, scenarios, locos and all the related stuff, so people would more likely switch to it. So far that game - SimRail is still in Early Access awaiting one more content update, no further news about the editor were heard, there were DLCs announced instead, and it's targeted mainly to multiplayer audience. Till there is no editor in SimRail, the editor in TSW can very well just stay locked.

 

You can already make scenarios using a text editor, the only difficult thing is to understand the triggered dispatcher command sequences. But as I see it, a scenario editor will probably be the first thing they could release.

That's the nice thing about SimRail, not everything has to be cooked. The scenarios are plain text, formations are a simple text string "Class\Unit+Wagon1+Wagon1+Wagon2" and a cold start flag. I wonder what difficulties DTG created for themselves to not feature a formation editor yet. (Well, I already see the naming of the stock has become a big mess. You don't know what 143 or 766 you're selecting in Freeroam. They should have just introduced naming conventions from the beginning, like putting the route acronym as a prefix like "[ RSN] DB BR 143" for example. Had to use a space after the bracket else auto format kicks in.))

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result...

I wrote a thread not long ago where I said that I strongly believed DTG lied about the licensing situation to get out of releasing an editor, so that developers would be forced to go through the sales channels DTG wanted. As it turns out I think I was proven right, but not in the way I was expecting.

From the beginning, DTG have made TSW a closed system. Remember the first reskins for TSW? You had to replace the default version of the train completely to use it. Only with the livery editor did we get reskins that could be used like in TS, but even then they could only be made in the very limited livery editor (bar one or two packs) and couldn't have basic features like dynamic numbers applied. Forget about child objects as well. From the beginning TS was an open book - the manual came with a guide for using the editor, and reskins were being made as soon as Rail Simulator came out. There was a clear difference in attitude from the very start.

However, contrary to the quote at the beginning of my post, DTG have got a different result. They have a total monopoly on the console market and a relatively large PC market, although one that is not expanding, likely because of unconvinced players who are already served well by Train Simulator. 2024 marks Train Simulator's seventeenth year of existence and this is entirely down to the game's easy moddability. I've recently been driving the Devmares CC40100, and it is truly one of the best trains ever made for Train Simulator. It is beautifully modelled, textured and animated, and its simulation is great too - a mod like this could not have existed in 2007, so it shows how far the game has come.

The question for TSW is one that is crucial for its long-term success - when TSW is seventeen years old, what will its modding scene be like? Will it have a committed community of players and developers? I am sure DTG management like to believe that no matter what their market share will not decrease, and that modding doesn't help a game's success, and that any mod downloaded for TSW is a sale lost for them. All three are untrue, and I am sure there are people working for DTG who know this too but can't do anything about it.

 

100% on all points. Open systems usually prove to be long term successes. The mindset in creating TSW should have been for this to happen from the start. They thought otherwise and now... well good luck trying to re-invent things when it's this far along and continues to be a bug filled mess.

 

The organism does what made the organism successful. So far, it has always worked for DTG. They survived even by releasing loads of subpar content. It sold nevertheless.

 

Let me say something first:

I still play TSW3, regularly not daily but often. I haven't bought TSW4 and I don't miss it. The reason for this - and this is just my personal opinion - shortly before the end of TSW3, DLC's was churned out almost weekly. Everyone was a bit surprised about that.

But today it should be clear to everyone that DTG only did that to release TSW4 in September completely pointlessly. New title, new money, they must have thought.

But not with me.

It would be a shame for the TSW franchise if this were to end, but DTG alone would bear the responsibility for this. I dont have bought so much DLC's for TSW3 yet, I don't need a new overpriced and pointless game, which is basically not a new game. And i don't share the opinion that "If you don't like a DLC, then you shouldn't buy it!", because every missed purchase basically "harms" the developer. But if you're so obviously taking the *** out of people, you have to live with the consequences.

The praised "Rush Hour package" was basically nothing more than a program code change to make more passengers appear ingame. And anyone who thinks that the Rush Hour package was a successful evolution can't be helped.

 

Just curious have you had any issues with the map screen freezing? Took my game to the latest beta to inhibit updates then dropped in ProMods 2.68 for Europe and the Middle East. Game loads okay and I was able to do the first mission of a new playthrough, but as soon as I go to the map to grab a fresh run it freezes then CTD’s. Tried loading a couple of additional mods which Google Fu indicated as a possible solution but to no avail. Not come across this with previous versions when I’ve had the Europe and ME mods active.

 

Zoom crash fix is one of the fixes I tried but still getting the CTD. Might take off the ME map see if that tames things a bit. Korea sounds interesting!