It is indeed. From the wording of the announcement it's very unlikely there will ever be steam in TSW again, aside from what we have
Not a single steam running over the Stream-A-Thon weekend. Peak Forest isn't even on the "list of all the routes" on the right hand side of the Saturday sheet https://dovetailgames-my.sharepoint...ny_4BaY1nXVpIGgGkbpxnk2fNZA?rtime=VS1eVSg13Eg
Disappointing but not surprising! It seems TSW isn't destined to offer a full gamut of railway experiences sadly, which you would think the developers would want to strive for. Unless third parties do it for them.
I would like to say they´ve tried but the effort was pretty low. John from Accountancy decides more than John from Development. As simple as that.
Sadly not surprising. Given Matt has commented in the US Freight (demise of) thread, it's a pity we couldn't have also had some insight in this topic too which is as important, if not more so, to the fundamentals of the product.
I think the impetus and budget were there for SoS, so it seems John from development simply does not know much about steam engine physics.
It is very disheartening that DTG won't even put a comment in to acknowledge the mess they've made and even apologise to the customers they've missold two pieces of content too.
John from Development was invited into a meeting in which he is dening responsibility for the poor sales of steam era content. Angry, John from Accountancy says "This is serious business, you don't have second chances" and cuts all funding. Not looking very affected, John from Development tells everybody that he might have some friends that could continue milking the dead cow. And they all lived happily ever after to announce modern era red DB trains.
According to Matt during his current and ongoing Special Effect live stream, DTG will support third parties if and when they have the desire to bring more steam to TSW, it just seems that steam is no longer a priority for DTG themselves going forwards.
I know I make a lot of jokes, I tend to jest often, and some of my dad jokes don't go over well at times, but I do enjoy TSW__ and I do wish they would make things better. This is why all of us talk about the issues as a whole. What really drew me to TSW__ when is when I saw TSW3 on my Xbox feed prior to its release in 2022. I did some research and came across the image of the Jubilee attached here, as well as the American BNSF Cajon Pass image but I think in all reality it was the image of the Jubilee that really caught my eye and had me take a second look, I ended up getting it prior to the release and played quite a bit of it on my Xbox and the more I learned that this was just the third version of TSW, I went and bought TSW2, I was only able to get a hard copy for Xbox. Spent a fair amount of money on the DLCs through Xbox, but at the time I was enjoying the game. I then migrated to PC and started rebuilding my TSW collection over the past year prior to TSW4 being released and it is a bit disconcerting of all the promises that were made by Dovetail games concerning steam locomotives I even spent the time with the assistance of my daughter in recording and showing what needs fixing in just one part of SOS [Crew Sheds] some scenarios were fixed and made shorter another was not even fixed but bypassed and made shorter. And yet there were no comments, no statements, nothing was said about the issues I had shown in several different videos. Maybe it was the way I said things, maybe it was the way it was shown, but I did hold out hope that more fixes were coming. And then there was the announcement of TSW4 which I voiced my concerns as did so many others but it was inevitable and it was either walk away or stay with it when I saw what they stated in the video attached here I held out hope that things would get a little better but as time went on it did not and then within the past few months of this year DTG made the outright announcement that they are not doing steam locomotives unless any third parties are willing to do it for them. It really is a shame that they would make such a bold statement in one video and then turn around and say, "Nope, no more steam, not by us, but if somebody wants to take up the mantle we'll work with them." and just leave what is broken, broken or what is unfinished, unfinished. It's like in the days of my youth, "Sap, gotcha! Just Kidding!" This was the primary image that caught my attention I understand the threads about Steam, this is only to add context to where I started. This is the second image that caught my eye. Talk of Scotsman @ 4:55 in the video. Train Sim World 4 Dev Diary: New Lands & Locos (youtube.com) With thanks to Spektra13(my daughter) for helping me with this post.
100 % this If DTG, who actually wrote the core code, can't even get it to work properly how on earth is someone else supposed to? I believe the Bible has a good parable about the man who built his house on the sand. TSC might not be 100% solid rock... but it's pretty darn sturdy and the base loco code can be pushed to create a number of innovative ideas (oil fired steamers, an Experimental gas turbine, etc) as well as being flexible enough to allow us to add much more realistic steam locos. If the difficulty to fix the SoS silent AI audio is so high that DTG haven't bothered to do it in nearly 2 years...
This is exactly the issue with the whole situation. All DTG have done is repeat this line every time anyones asked about anything steam related. Basically DTG are burying their heads in the sand and pretending the whole heap of features and fixes that were promised don't exist. I don't understand why they can't just give a straight up honest reply about the situation. Part of me half wonders if Trading standards would get more of a reply from them the way they've messed us all around on steam and "Included features" that were "Being worked on" and definitely used as a selling point for the routes
This is the crux of it, really. DTGs’ marketing/PR talk about supporting 3rd parties with steam is well and good but useless in my opinion. How do they expect developers to work with this base? It’s not just the quality of the steam simulation either, fundamental features like manual firing or consumption of water/coal is not implemented at all. Steam should at least be brought to a level at which 3rd parties can work with it before they abandon it.
DTG just used corporate vocabulary to wrap up a fail and give it a good twist in the end. Everybody does this nowadays. What I'm curious yo know is if these 3rd parties were interested in steam before or after news got out of DTG's failure and distancing from it!?
This probably very well depicts the main problem with DTG treatment of TSW. When AI Class 66 ran on idle, not many people mentioned, DTG ignored the problem. When they then copied and modified the dynamic for SD70ACe, more people mentioned AI runs on idle even uphill... ignored again. And when then steam came, and AI ran on idle, it became a huge issue that was, however, years deep into the core. A small issue could've been fixed right away, but left unchecked it screwed a whole lot more.
Those 3rd parties probably did have an interest. Some sort of deal could have been made with them. Don't forget, all we see is the end result.
One of the main third parties doing steam in TSC (Victory Works) is active in this thread. I somehow doubt they would be expressing their dismay at the situation if DTG were rolling over to accommodate their wishes (and therefore ours) for steam traction improvements in the core.
Personally, it's the only reason I bought TSW4, to get the Editor - and also bought a bunch of reference books for the Hayling branch. I was all in, putting my time, money and trust in DTG. The Editor turned out to be so horribly convoluted, undocumented and unstable and after many hours I decided I'd wait until there was more info about it to proceed. https://forums.dovetailgames.com/media/albums/hayling-branch-abandoned.406/ The news of "Steam is broken and we don't care and won't be fixing it" (which is the truth rather than the corporate speak) has finished it for me. Note: they also look like they've abandoned any public editor updates (or more importantly any documentation) in any meaningful way. As the Editor runs in UE (so doesn't add to my Steam playtime) my listed playtime for TSW4 since purchase is 114 minutes. Simrail is 210.5 hours. That is not what I was expecting when I handed over my £40 last September. Edit: In fairness to DTG I haven't approached them about it privately - I wanted to get a good chunk of the work under my belt before I did that. But if they won't even fix the most obvious of bugs, or add features they PROMISED when they sold us steam.. why would I put any more faith in them.
That would have been a lovely little route to potter up and down on. I haven’t been back in the route editor since my first laborious attempts but assume nothing radical has changed? Other than a few blink and you’ll miss the blurry on screen mouse click videos on YT, I’m assuming there is no formal documentation still? All I wanted to do was cut my teeth on a scaled up version of our local park miniature railway but it’s not even fit for that without proper step by step instructions. Though as I mentioned in another thread, only topped by the Zusi 3 editor which seems to require a degree in German tech speak and advanced geometric principles!
Curious question, but have you considered developing for SR? I know their steam is still in development, but overall the game core seems way more stable than what we have here. And if they manage to do steam well...?
Well I'm waiting excitedly for the kettle but assuming they show it the same amount of care and attention they have for everything else I would never say never. The issue is that Simrail is built on very large routes so a single developer making something compact like Hayling wouldn't appear to be an option. But if I could be a part of a Simrail route, UK 1960's with steam and diesel, a mix of electrical and mechanical signalling... that would be the Nirvana of train simulation for me as a player. Well GWR 1930's would be the ultimate joy but I can see the advantages of a 1960's mix of old and new to cover a large player base so that would be a good place to start.
I think it is the "undocumented" part of the Editor that is the biggest let-down. There was such a fanfare about its release, together with warnings about how complicated it was, that I am gobsmacked so little has been done to (a) provide a handbook, (b) to develop it further and (c) to encourage us to use it more. It seems, at the moment, that only people who already had UE experience are able to get anywhere substantial with it. I'm now worried that Formation Designer may be heading in the same direction. Yes it is still early days, and yes someone will post later that it is "only a beta", but it is still very buggy, has many vehicles missing and doesn't interact with the game fully. More worryingly, ask any question about FD development and there is now the familiar wall of silence once more. It is so disappointing. What with Livery Editor and Scenario Editor also having issues then I, personally, find myself in the situation where I have 5-6 projects that are all stalled due to the limitations, and known bugs, within TSW4. I do genuinely think that DTG are letting us down and, more worrying, don't seem to be too bothered about putting things right.
That's a shame because that's the sort of route that DTG should've started with (or already have in their arsenal). A 6-10 mile branch line with a tank engine, a couple of carriages (not MK1s) and, maybe, a cattle van. Pick the right engine and rolling stock and you could have a similar thing based in all 4 corners of the country. Then steam might've stood a better chance? (Such a route could have been accompanied by a set of articles showing how it was built which, in turn, could have introduced us to the various editors involved).
Sadly it is very hard to argue against this........especially if you add the words "for the majority of players" to your sentence.
Given how SR seems to connect the routes (the existing two being connected and running on shared servers and the third one probably connecting to it as well), perhaps it is not impossible to begin with a small branch line and build from that, step-by-step.
If they'd contacted me at the start and said "We want to do the Falmouth branch again to test the waters, can we get you involved with the Panniers/Prairie/Manor" I'd have jumped in with both feet. But they decided (or were forced) to go with what I now refer to as "Jackson's Folly" and after a nowhere to nowhere add-on simply to re-use the same stock, we're now here at "Steam Doesn't Sell Junction, calling at Half Arsed Halt and Broken Promises Central"
I wouldnt say "useless", considering the amount of already very well looking route projects. We even have at least one new 3rd party (Ticket to the North), who initially started his route as community project. So while their editor is nit perfect (yes, it needs documentation, yes, it needs to be more stable, needs the cooking option etc), it's not useless. Not at all, because reality proofs it.
Frankly considering they got the models from Bossman Games I'm surprised DTG didn't bring them in with SoS to develop the locos, or barring that at least make a loco DLC for it.
Suspect Bossman took one look at the steam architecture, said thank you very much for the £xxxx for the models, over to you guys…
I dont think it is. The problem is demographics….the younger generation play TSW and want what they see on the railways today mostly. Im just guessing but there probably arent many 70 year olds playing TSW that want steam! You see the same generally in model railways….guys who grew up with steam mostly model steam….younger guys who grew up with diesel or electric model diesel or electric.
Then as VW already posted, doesn’t explain why steam does so well in TSC or why people of all generations visit heritage railways largely to see steam.
Do think steam is finished by dtg it's just there's no team to the current road map. The possible reason steam is very much on the back burner is steam takes longer to do wich matt said over the weekend and not many people seem to buy it it's the same with BR Blue based Routes unfortunately
Again not really true. Only DTG’s thought speak would have you believe that. BPO was one of the most eagerly awaited UK releases of recent months in the sim. Primarily because of the BR Blue era and in itself classic Class 142 Pacer.
That's kind of what I think, either that or Dovetail actively told them they can't for one reason or another. You say that, but speaking on the US the people I've seen modeling US steam almost certainly don't remember a time when they were the dominate power. Bare in mind that someone who was merely born in 1959 is damn near 65 today, and realistically no newborn's going around train spotting. So add at least another half-decade to even have decent chance they'd be out and about at railyards, which puts many of those people around 70 just to have seen the last remaining mainline ops. Anything else would be pretty regional, and in a small scale by that point. Not saying there aren't people in those age categories, but at this point I really doubt that's the dominant brackets buying a HO Yellowstone at this point.
The issue isn't steam or BR blue imo. The issue is DTG and their half baked attempts at creating them. Because JT put a hell of a shift in, put time, effort and care into BPO and its basically the best route in the game by a mile IMO at least If DTG had got steam working properly, created a nice small route to test the waters, focused properly on physics and getting manual firing finished etc I think it'd have been so much more successful. Instead they went off on a bug PR stunt after the money and fell flat on their faces. Admittedly due to the big boss but surely PFR could've at least improved on this. Its not that people dont buy its that people don't want half baked content imo lol.
I don't think that's necessarily true. For example the very good-looking in-development Century of Steam is being built by some guys my kids' age, all of them passionate steam anoraks.
Have to agree with the majority of posts here. Steam has been a debacle and poorly designed and implemented from the start. The excuses that it doesn’t sell is a direct consequence of those actions, now it’s just damage limitation. No more development time because the return on investment is not short term, and why bother anyway unless it’s a German red box or a one-handled UK EMU.
Dtg can't make them join. That's entirely up to bossman. Even if they decided to join, there's still a really long learning process to overcome
Same could be said for MSFS, yet that game had tons of developers commit to it even before it launched, even though it was effectively a new sim. If the platform's solid and has great sales protentional it will attract developers, my point is it needs to be asked why TSW has failed on that front for so long.
Very legit point- my beard is gray, but the last mainline steam in the US vanished before I was born. Yet steam is absolutely huge among both railfans and model railroaders here, the majority of whom are even younger than I am.
The whole thing of people like trains from their era is quite frankly a load of b0llocks. Older people can like modern trains from 20, 30, 40, 50, etc, years after they were born as well as young people can and do like trains from decades before their existence. In actual fact in all my years I would say the majority of people actually lean on the side of older trains compared to newer ones.
I was born 30 years after steam vanished, and like it more than modern day electrics. It's not an age thing, which IMO is a ridiculous thing to say as its clearly not true.
I decided to revisit Tharandter Rampe this evening and I had the same feeling that I had when seeing It in the release live stream. It feels designed with a secret purpose in mind, to run steam engines on it. The I remembered the side by side with the gorgeous class 18 201 and the class 52 or a more recent one with the class 50 and class 52 on Youtube recorded on this line. Such a shame it will never be a thing.
I'm told by people in the heritage rail sector that diesel is beginning to get a bigger following than steam.
Given that route has TWO active museums on it, it was definitely a great place for German steam locos, would be way easier to just produce a Br 52, refine the system on it and only after that create something else, perhaps a dedicated steam route... hmmm... wonder who chose this approach
There’s probably a practical reason for that too. Pink diesel (no duty) is probably cheaper to buy than steam grade coal which is being burned even when the loco is resting between duties. I know many heritage railways in the UK are struggling financially so running diesels helps to cut costs.
