Timetable mode, certainly for me and I have seen many others mention, is one of the best features in TSW. The layers, bring the timetable more to life by adding variety and filling in extra services. This is especially noticeable in the German routes which have been at the forefront of layering since the early days, the UK routes are starting to catch up too. However whilst it is a boon to see all these layers I find it frustrating seeing something which wouldn't be there in real life. For example a class 110 on Dostos, I can't recall which route it was, may have been Dresden (this was some months ago) but I believe the class 110 can't actually work with the Dostos for a start and would not have been on that route around at that time. I passed two class 612's on the Maintalbahn route but from a bit of research I did it seems they don't run there, although that might be my research not being thorough enough. WCL would be much better if you could deselect the class 40 and 45 from appearing and I would prefer not to see a class 40 on the Blackpool route, simply because they weren't there in 1986. This isn't a criticism so much and I know that many won't see it as a priority and don't mind seeing unrealistic stock on routes. However for borish purists like me it would be good if you could stop certain locos appearing on certain routes, not by removing the service layer but just the stock. I read on here some time ago that it had been mentioned but I have seen no mention of it since and I am sure (hope) I am not the only one who would like to see this feature added. It might be something either not technically possible or something which would take a lot of work and hassle so may well not be worth it in DTG's eyes.
Actually I’m slightly of the opposite view, wish layers would also permeate through to Journey mode so you get something a bit different on the run than the default traction. I agree to some extent about the Class 40’s on WCL but as the Class 45’s were regular visitors to Cornwall along with Class 46’s on inter regional services I am more laid back about seeing them even if by the time the route is set they had largely gone. Personally I think the Class 101’s on BPO, WCL or DLOGW are more incongruous rather than that.
I would very much welcome a layer toggle feature if it were to happen as a good few inaccuracies turn up from time to time, mainly on German content.
I mean, I don't have a clue how any of this works. I have never used journey mode but would support your desire to see more variety. What I am suggesting would suit the best of both worlds, so everyone is happy. I am not asking for anything to be taken away. If selectable layers were not possible without breaking the layering system then leave it as it is. However with more traction and more routes being added, will we start getting will we start seeing practically everything layering into everything else. I know the simulator is just a representation but I would like it to be as realistic as possible especially when it comes to stock and traction. If the class 110 isn't operable with the Dostos in reality, then why is it represented like this in the sim?
That much is true, which is why I keep mithering for some UIC or original Silberlinge stock so they don’t have to represent services with the wrong rolling stock.
The answer, as silly as that sounds, is that DTG most likely didn't do that on purpose. Allowing players to turn layers off if they want to is a good idea, and probably quite easy to implement, but it wouldn't actually fix any of the issues mentioned in the original post. Those are caused by substitution, not layers. Timetable layers are just a collection of services that the game can turn on or off depending on if you have certain addons installed. Substitution is the system that allows the player (and the game) to replace one vehicle in a train formation with another. Taking my own Nahverkehr Dresden timetable as an example, if the player has the Vectron, that will unlock a layer that has all the freight trains that contain Eanos wagons on it. Additionally, if you have the Vectron, you'll be able to drive it on almost any freight train, and you'll see it on AI freight trains, because the substitution system will sometimes replace the default MRCE 185 with the Vectron, and allow you to choose it in the main menu. The substitution system is, uh, rough. Solving the problems that it has would be much more difficult than just a layer toggle -- honestly you'd probably need to throw the entire thing away and start over. Here are the substitution settings for the locomotive on one of my services on the Dresden S-Bahn. As you can see, you can turn substitution on and off per vehicle, set up how likely it is that it gets replaced with something else, and you then get some parameters you can adjust to control what vehicles pop up. What you don't get is a way to just explicitly list the vehicles you'd like to show up (or a list of vehicles to exclude). The reason why the 110 shows up on Dresden-Riesa although it doesn't work with the Dostos is because whoever made the timetable used "DB Regio" instead of "Bahnbetriebswerk Dresden" as a "valid Geographic Region" and didn't enter "ZWS" under "Required Multiple Working Standards". But of course at the time Dresden-Riesa was made, the 143 and 146 were pretty much the only DB Regio locos we had anyway, so what could possibly go wrong? Also note that: The "Geographic Region" is set up on the Rail Vehicle Definition itself, not on the formation. If someone at DTG hadn't given the DRA 143 and 146 the "Bahnbetriebswerk Dresden" entry (I have no clue why they didn't use that in the timetable), I couldn't have added it to them myself. It also means that it's pretty much impossible to stop the 112 from appearing on freight trains, because it has a "DB Cargo" Geographic Region for some horrible reason. You can only set up how likely it is that the default train gets replaced, not how likely it is for each individual replacement option to appear. Again, on the locos themselves, there is a parameter called the "commonness rating" that determines that. Of course, this is an extremely weird and bad way to handle it: an ÖBB 1116 is going to be extremely common in Austria, but you're quite a lot less likely to see one in Dresden. So yeah, the substitution system is very wonky, you have to really wrestle with it if you're trying to make a specific substitution happen but not another one, if that's even possible with the completely arbitrary "Geographic Regions" that locos have. And even if you can make it work, a new train might come out actual years after you made your timetable and break it anyways. And of course, you might want to allow people to select trains, but not make them show up as AI. If someone wants to try driving an S-Bahn timetable service with the 111, I would be perfectly happy to let them do that... if that wouldn't also mean that 111s would show up as AI trains randomly. Oops! This whole thing needs a redesign from the ground up, not just some user-facing toggles on top.
I don’t think I have any problems with any current layers/substitutions but if the feature is just optional for everyone then it may aswell be a thing, perhaps may have future use for myself.
Thank you for your insightful and informative post. It seems like it isn't going to be a easy thing to implement. You are right I should have used the term substitution and not layers. Some kind of compromise where you don't see unrealistic AI but can drive a loco as a playable service seems worthwhile. I assume then there is no way of managing the substitutions unless you are building your own route or timetable? Thanks again.
You'd either have to make the new system work with the old content, or edit most locomotives and timetables in the game to make them work with the new system... You set up substitution when you build the formations for use in your timetable, yes.
If it is possible to toggle layers, then I wouldn't mind having a toggle to enable or disable them. For instance, I would have the SNCF TGV disabled on SEHS since they don't run on the line in reality
Careful with terms here: a layer is actually a group of services, not the trains that run on them, except to the extent the route designer pairs rolling stock with the layer. So for example when the Vectron was released, a group of freight services were added to the route, to which the Vectron was assigned as the primary loco but where other freights could be allowed substitute Substitution governs which rolling stock actually appears; it is this, not layers, which you want to have toggle-able. If you toggle off a layer, you would just be removing services entirely.
I desperately want this. I don’t want to see a railtour or diverted services every time I do a run, it doesn’t make sense.
Yes, some sort of toggle for layers would be very welcome, the 40s on WCL are a bit too much of a stretch in imagination. Also whilst I am thinking about it, would it rid the need for a full and reduced timetable too?
Being able to turn off some of the extras on routes, such a rail tours that have been added as lawyers would be nice. As has already been said Rail tours don't run every day. Recently did a run on BPO and approaching Preston I passed both the class 20 and 8F specials, not really likely on real life, bit I wouldn't want to get rid of them totally
What is that? Why would a 112 ever have any association with DB Cargo? From your explanations, it seems that the substitution systems is not bad as a basis if a little clunky and rough around the edges but quickly falls apart if the devs don’t properly tag their rolling stock. A 112 should rarely if ever(!) be seen hauling freight. To get back on topic, I’d appreciate a toggle for certain substitutions or layers if such a thing were possible. Getting rid of most of the 112 substitutions alone would be worth it to me.
A substitution question. For my planned route dlc which is a UK route, I'm planning to add a Steam Railtour layer and I want that service to be playable with both the LMS Jubilee and Flying Scotsman as they can both reach at least 75 mph and for the Jubilee, I want to set it up so that it can use the ones from Spirit of Steam, Peak Forest, and West Cornwall Steam Railtour. Is there any certain settings I have to apply to allow all LMS Jubilee variants to be available for that service?
