Enough Is Enough!!! The Ongoing Saga!!! It's Almost The 3 Year Anniversary

Let's not forget the DLCs cost more than many full games. Their asking price is very high, so what is offered should be substantial. We shouldn't go from "this route would be awesome" to "this route shouldn't be released now, because there's not enough rolling stock and nobody will do anything about it". E.g. E-G (haha) connects the largest Scottish cities and is now doomed to one EMU forever.

 

Just doing my part to get to 100

 

Let's not post here just for the sake of that. Share your opinions, ideas, thanks to DTG we will get to 100 anyway.

 

This is what I hate about the culture DTG have created and now third parties are following. They release something and then its dead to them. They as a team wont go back to revisit problems pointed out by the community instead we have to rely on an individual taking time out of their personal life to rework / fix routes. They probably dont even get payed for it. Theres bugs on certain trains / routes that are over 2/3 years old that have not even been addressed by DTG.

Unfortunately Rivet have now bought into this culture lets see how far it takes them.

 

Me to be honest, I haven't played TSW nowhere near as much since TSW4 came out, The way too early release of TSW4 & the evermore financial expense of just trying to keep up just left a bad taste in the mouth, The cost of living crisis has pushed gaming further down the list.

 

While I don't deny that older DLCs should be revisited more often and some outstanding bugs should be fixed, it's not true to say that they never do that as your message suggests. See here, here, or here.

Also, it would be more constructive if you point out what exactly hasn't been adressed for 2/3 years.

 

I’d love it if twice as many people liked train simulators and bought every TSW DLC so that the content could be much better but there just aren’t the player numbers for that and I would guess there never will be. That’s ultimately the limiting factor here. Some very respected members of the community who are also developers have explained how difficult it is to make content profitable. I just can’t think about how TSW would be in a world where anything is possible and have to confine my expectations to what is dictated by the realities.

I don’t think there is any way Rivet could make a long route with several new trains and make any money from it and the same goes for going back to old routes to add extra stuff every time they do make something new. It just isn’t possible. There are not an extra bunch of thousands of players waiting to buy a route that has two trains that won’t buy because it only has one. These people don’t exist. If the content was to contain more then the price would have to go up but that wouldn’t work because that in itself will result in fewer people buying. I wish it was different but it isn’t.

 

In a word, testing. It isn't just tossing out the old timetable and building a new one: then, every service in the new TT has to be tested. That takes a LOT of time, and holds up new content which also needs testing.

 

I feel very much the same way. For me, TSW is shrinking fast to a level where all that's available is and will be modern commuter lines which lack interest and variety and eschew any innovative content. The abandonment of steam and freight means that I will have very little reason to purchase anything this coming year.

I am finding other games and other interests to occupy my time at the moment, except for the odd run on one of the older routes.

I understand that many, maybe most of the player community, especially younger members, enjoys this shift to modern commuter and so that's where the sim is headed and so be it. It's a far cry from the freshness and promise of SPG, NTP and TVL. The "Blackpool Spring " seems to be short-lived.

I'm actually getting tired of constantly complaining about the situation and I think I'll just continue to read the forum rather than post in it unless something magical happens to renew my interest, which appears unlikely.

 

I just reinstalled X Rebirth having found a fix for the tiny font size on a 4K monitor, also X4 Foundations which I bought but never played much as like most Egosoft games buggy as heck for about two years after release. However, I’ve heard it’s much better now, some good walkthroughs over at Rogueys site so worth another pop. Only thing I need is a better joystick as the main fire button packed up on mine!

 

If boycotting includes not making any DLC purchases in over a year due to general disillusionment and disinterest, then yes.

 

Ill take all the modern commuter routes

 

This is why I won't, and haven't, bought any add-on until it's significantly discounted.

 

Bear in mind, though, that each DLC is it's "own game" if that makes sense. All that connects them is a core, otherwise they're completely separate to one another.

 

I have been far more selective...
Didn't buy NYC - Trenton.
Didn't buy Edinburgh to Glasgow.
Didn't buy (half) Berninabahn.
Didn't buy Maintalbahn.
Didn't buy sundry add on packs.
Not planning to buy Goblin Line.
Mulling whether to buy Fife Circle.
Mulling whether to buy Semmering.

In truth there's already enough DLC in my TSW collection that I've only scratched the surface of and that's without going into TSC, Zusi 3, SimRail, Run 8, Railroader and all the other non train related games. Enough to keep me going for years so needs to be something really good to get my money.

 

There are games which have spent the first year or two in development just working out the basics of locomotion. Specifically I believe Zelda Skyward Sword spent over half its development time just working out how they'd use the Wii Remote. It was the final two years being when they actually started to focus on the actual level design.

I was actually just watching this video on Half-Life Alyx a day or so ago giving some behind the scenes insight into what went into the shift-teleport movement option. VR development's obviously a bit different from "pancake" screen development, but it goes to show just how much thought needs to be put in just for the basics.

A game being able to share even the same basic movement from a prior title makes a massive difference in development time.

 

Sorry, I don't buy that whatsoever. They're clearly all part of the same game. The Nathan Drake Collection is formed of three separate games connected by a launcher menu, but they aren't one game and there's no way to say that they are - dozens of DLCs in TSW that all look and control the same and that need a base game to work are very clearly not separate games.

 

Not to mention asset libraries that can be recycled to generate content, etc.

TSW DLC is not its own game by a longshot, but go right ahead. I bet the devs love this kind of logic.

 

It's the only justification I can see as to why they leave them after release and barely return to them.

 

You're trying to justify something that's unjustifiable.

 

Would you be content if the phone you bought had software issues that the company were aware of yet refused to update them?

 

It's just a way of trying to make sense of it.

 

There's plenty of phone companies I can get one from so I would just go to another.

 

But the norm for a standalone game (from a professional, dedicated publisher/dev team) is for it to be patched and bugs fixed beyond launch – sometimes years beyond launch.

 

Don't. There's no practical reason for it, them not updating past DLC is solely their choice, and not the right one.

 

Maybe the only sense that can be made of it is that they don't care. They got the money, onto the next one.

 

Its a production line now, what sells fast on day one wins. At least the cards are more or less on the table, no more steam, no more BR Era (Unless its in TOC guise) No more anything remotely interesting. It was nice to finish my time with TSW with the Blackpool line which was a decent way of spending time but the time to move on has happened. I am back running an extremely modded version of TSC with a huge stable of stock half of which I didnt realise I had!!

 

Since when did DTG follow the norm?

 

I shouldn't. No point making sense of nonsense.

 

"BR Class 104 & Peak Forest Expansion pack has shifted into our “Release Date TBC” section."

At least this is still on life-support; any thoughts?

 

I'm hoping they've pulled it back to make it perfect.

 

Given all we’ve been shown is an image of the greyscale 3D model I’m guessing this is a long way off. Not dismissing as vapourware (yet) but like Thomas (sorry second Biblical reference today), I will believe it when I see it.

 

Do we know who SimTrack are yet? They said we would know them in the community in November’s roadmap but didn’t want to reveal themselves just yet. A bit weird but I thought because of the tease they were going to go public eventually. Not that it matters who they are but I am curious because of what they said.

 

Yes, we know about them. Some members are in the TSC Discord.

 

No more steam? I've been out of the loop, when/where did they announce that? Seems like typical dovetail

 

Check out the "DTG have abandoned steam thread" thats pretty much got everything in it

 

One of the devs announced it through discord and it was confirmed by dtg later on. Steam development is on hold for an indefinite time and 3rd parties will have to release steam content if they are willing to use the borked steam simulation

 

Just noticed that in the new sale, NY-Trenton is 80 % off after a year... yeah they're not touching that route ever again, are they?

 

Are you sure about that?
I remember one of the community staff quite proudly boasting that there were multiple tens of thousands of unique logins when Creator's Club was added to TSW2 so I think that point in itself suggests that back in the day there were more than enough interested parties at their disposal. Plus, the last three iterations of TSW have all been available to play for 'free' on Gamepass - a service with tens of millions of subscribers - so it's not like Dovetail Games have placed the game in some quiet little niche corner in the vain hope that someone may stumble upon it.

Look, TSW has had every opportunity to take itself to a much higher level but, you know, if folk are uncomfortable with a rigid pricing policy that only really appeals to a niche audience and/or not prepared to buy into something with a very distinct whiff of 'quantity over quality' emanating from it's bowels then you can hardly blame them for wanting to take their money elsewhere, can you!

 

Enough Is Enough...
Current Score in the Steam sale
TSC: Shelby to Havre, B&O Mountsin Sub, B&O H9 Steamer, Smokebox Big Boy, NKP Berkshire = 5.
TSW: Erm, nothing (after refunding Edinburgh to Glasgow) = 0.
TSC 5:0 TSW.
That might go to 7:0 in extra time if I add the Wasatch Grade and Rio Grande Southern later, if I can scratch a Steam Wallet card when SWMBO isn't looking.

 

There are indeed tens of thousands of players, some of whom buy lots of DLC and that funds the creation of what we have now. If there were suddenly many more such folk we could have all the things that people keep asking for but there aren’t. People having the game available for free on Gamepass won’t just magically make them interested in buying thirty routes. Most of them won’t even look at TSW because you can’t shoot anyone in it and there will be many people who try it and then not enjoy it because driving trains is fairly dull in gaming terms. Some Gamepass players will buy a few DLC but the issue isn’t mainly down to TSW not being up to par but because there just aren’t that many people interested in driving trains on lots of different routes. Lots of other people may wish to get into it but just don’t have the kind of money to buy any games, trains or otherwise.

Even within the enthusiasts that do play TSW and other simulators there are players who will only buy certain types of route or content from one country. You could have the best route with the best train and still the overall audience won't increase beyond those that want to drive trains and a fan of only German content won’t buy the best UK route ever if they only stick with what they like. Most people do. As with all sims and hobbies, people have their preferences and some will only play TSC or Run 8, like my friend who only uses Pentax cameras and lenses for his photography. Canon could make the world’s best camera in his price range and he will never buy it. He is also way more nerdy and knowledgeable about trains than me but he has zero interest in driving trains in his spare time, he would rather be in the pub or at a gig or out in the countryside taking photos. My brother isn’t interested in photography or driving trains so he will never buy either. You can’t just magic up a massive number of new followers for a niche interest.

There is also little evidence that player numbers are decreasing for TSW either so it is likely that the same number or more are playing now than ‘back in the day’ when Creators Club first came about. New developers are joining the third party programme and are itching to release content because the player base is strong but it isn’t going to grow to the size that will pay for all the things people demand a lot on here and an increase in the quality of DTG content. That will come organically if it happens. It has actually been happening just not as fast as we would like.

 

Not heard this, is this official? Did JT's route not sell as hoped? I do hope this is not the end of BR era in TSW

 

maybe one day RSSLO will do its routes also for TSW... like Wien Hbf - Parndorf - Bratislava Petrzalka / Hegyeshalom O

 

I thought it went down well with the reviews and DTG have referred to it as a fan favourite route in posts since. But then idk if we're referring to old comments pre TSW4 by Matt say that BR blue doesn't sell well.

 

Then why are Cities Skylines & Animal Crossing among others massive hits? For that matter why do Farming & Truck Simulator do so well?

The idea that a game "needs guns" or have any sort of action was outdated even back in the 90's, much less today.

 

It may not make them interested...but it will make them aware.
I had zero interest in driving tractors around fields > Farming sim arrived on Gamepass > I now own the game and rent a private server.
In saying that though, if it would have cost me £30 a pop for a new map and some misc farming equipment my field ploughing journey would have started and ended in Gamepass.

Oh and stereotyping console gamers as people who just want to shoot stuff is kind of sad really. Just saying.

 

Those games are more popular because they are fun and accessible and have good marketing. Train driving is seen as sitting in a cab for a long time doing nothing, which on a hill climb in a US freight train can be exactly that for a long time. I know flight simulators are more popular than train sims and for the way some people use them, for long haul flights, there is that aspect but other parts of flight sims are way more exciting than driving a train along a fixed path with no steering to do.

A lot of gaming does have guns and I just used that as an example. I never said games needed to have guns to be popular but those that do seem to be much bigger than train simulators.

 

I won't disagree on marketing entirely, but there's a lot of games (and other media for that matter) with good marketing that fall flat on their face. Not to mention ETS2 as far as I'm aware got spread around via word of mouth, not by a regular marketing campaign. As for fun that can mean a lot of things, you'd need a more proper definition to properly debate whether that's true or not.

I completely agree with accessibility though, the game does a poor job at explaining certain things. A lot of the tutorials it does have are long and boring, which only gets worse as they get very redundant as you get more and more content. Not to mention the lack of tutorials for certain other things like safety systems is just baloney.

The thing is I heard so many reviews and let's players with Truck Sim say effectively "This game has the most boring premise in the world that I normal would have no interest in, and yet they made a fun game out of this" Truck Sim really isn't in any different a boat in terms of premise, all the difference comes from execution of its concept. Mainly actually having a solid gameplay loop that still gives players plenty of freedom, a much more accessible approach to DLC release scheduling and pricing, and more consistent quality. That I would argue is the real difference, premise has little to do with it as far as I'm concerned.

Bare in mind though both Microsoft Flight & DTG's Flight Sim World both tried to launch with just propeller aircraft, and arguably failed in large part due to that. That in itself arguably shows jets are a huge part of the equation behind why civil sims are popular.

 

Yes for me part of the fun of flight simulation is being able to emulate those holiday flights of years ago or fly the classic big jets like DC10, Tristar etc. Other than sightseeing, pootling around in a Baron or Cessna doesn't hold much appeal.

 

The appeal ETS2 for me has is - I can travel, visit places I've been to or have not yet discovered. Put some good music on and just travel. The scale is perfect to not make it boring, and ProMods is just.... wow. Just getting in my MB1632 V10 manual 8-speed gearbox truck, starting from Karlsruhe and drive to the Nordkapp and admire the ever changing scenery and ever longer days. Then pick up a job that sends me to Pakistan. Going wherever I want to, seamlessly.

And - it's a network, not separate routes. My combo spans Iceland to Korea, only using a simulated rail transfer through China.