That's very interesting and something I was unaware of. On the other hand I can tell a Class 66 from an SD70ace in TSW, even though they have similar prime movers. It really is, as you say, a very subjective issue.
An alternate perspective: DTG's prices likely are in fact set relative to the development costs, and if more time was spent on polish, the prices would need to go up to match, which risks hurting sales. And lower prices would mean needing lower development budgets, which would mean less polish and more unfixed problems. The tightrope of development budget and time/sale price/projected sales/actual sales is a tricky one that every software business has to walk. There are of course plenty of arguments to be made on how DTG manages all three aspects, and where priorities should be, etc. I personally would like to see them learn from their multiple instances of promising features and fixes that end up either taking way too long or never coming out at all. Make plans that they know they can support, and improve the evaluation processes that have caused these failures.
Very interesting discussion! In general I find the audio delivery of TSW4 on a PS5 with a 5.1 surround system pretty good. It gets the ambience and directions quite right when you're moving cameras or when you're on foot. The latest addition of tunnel and bridge reverb came in very handy, as it definitely improves immersion. And levels and directions of different sound sources change accordingly. But of course there ARE inconsistencies that hurt my (trained organist) ears. In no particular order and non exhaustive: 1. Overdone flange squeal sounds of the BR612 and the BR423 on any route. The latter, when acting as AI, break up and silence suddenly. 2. The (IMHO) overdone fan noises from some german locos like the BR103/110/146/185. 3. The missing rolling or "plasticky" rolling sounds from several trains like the Azuma, german Dostos and Talents. 4. The Class 158 on MML is a good example of my ignorance: I never heard that thing. It is praised to have "perfect sounds". Yet, to my ears it sounds like a 4-wheel lawn mower I owned a few years ago. Does/did it really sound like this? 5. Several horns on several locos without any reverb mixed in. It sounds like coming from a sound proof studio chamber. 6. Missing station ambience sounds. Some stations seem just stone dead. Glasgow Central on CCL, on the other hand, has great ambience sounds (but no trains and people in it). 7. The british Diesels from the BR era puzzle me quite a bit: Those particular (sorry!) farting sounds from a Sulzer engine (2-stroke?) seem to be reproduced quite well if you compare to various YT shootings. But don't they ever get hot? I'm asking because I don't seem to hear any cooling fans to get temps down?! In the end I guess the OP's survey boils down to a single question. Do we take DTG's claim literally that TSW is the "most true to life" train simulator available, or do we accept that this is just a game, nothing more than a game, with cuts and compromises to be negotiated? Nothing is black and white, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. And that's why I checked "do the best you can ...".
I have to say that I’m intrigued by how many people complain about this. I’d argue TSW gets them very nicely. Those fans are incredibly loud and I’m pleased that TSW reproduces this. I’m pretty sure you can hear the cooling fan kicking in on the 47 (BPO’s at least). Not sure about NTP’s locos from the top of my head.
Until the GM Class 59’s arrived, fairly sure all UK diesel locos were 4 stroke cylinders. The Class 45 on NTP has a great cooling fan sound which kicks in and out periodically. Always seems strange how DTG managed to do such great sounds for the UK diesel loco fleet, yet latterly really struggle with more modern stuff. A change of audio personnel, perhaps?
I knew someone would be along to correct me!! And a loco we definitely need in the game and absolutely no compromise on sound…
This is of course a very serious concern for developers which is why I always kick back at people saying that not buying things (the so called voting with your wallet) will improve the quality because it will force the devs to up their game to get more sales, whereas I believe the opposite to be true, buying things will increase development budgets in the future leading to better products. There is the fact that in many ways DTG have learnt what players want or expect and in other ways haven’t. I see a lot of comment on the forums in particular of views that what DTG should be doing for TSW is what TSC players want and the constant comparisons that result. We do currently have many half baked features that aim to make TSW more like TSC and maybe those features need to be present in a train simulator but many times I’ve wished for scenario making or free roam features but don’t use the ones we have because they are badly done and not at all like those in TSC anyway. It’s too late now for those features to be dropped but were they strictly necessary when the dev time could have been put to better use getting steam physics correct or other core improvements to the systems used by the paid for content, including sound, and making a more solid simulator? I haven’t a clue. I’m sure they came up as the most wanted features in surveys but we got by without them and I guess the majority of players still never touch them now. That's probably a discussion for a different thread but would the sound be better if locos didn’t have to be made in a way which meant we could paint them different colours? Different departments but the same budget they come form could be distributed differently. Who knows? Not me that’s for sure.
A clear line cannot be drawn. It depends on how close the ersatz audio is to the real engine's sounds. This is a nonsensical idea. What motive is there for DTG to spend more on DLC if they can sell the same amount of DLC by spending less?
Once again you're getting Economics 101 backwards. It's simply wrong to assume that when companies receive greater revenue, they will automatically plough it back into developing better products rather than simply improving their bottom line. The only way to compel companies to make better products is not to purchase those that are inferior and/or buy competing products from other vendors. This is somewhat skewed by the fact that DTG still has no effective competition, but it's still a basic law of business activity. And so the fact that we're not buying steam or freight routes and locos has somewhat compelled DTG to focus on electric commuter since it is clearly the most profitable. I don't like it, but they are following the standard profit motive. If we all had been purchasing SOS, PFR and Clinchfield exclusively, there wouldn't be so many, if any, Goblins, Glossops and even LIRR2's. The system is based on companies supplying products that sell in volume at the highest price and lowest cost. I think DTG has found that happy medium and that's why we get popular products that sometimes don't meet everyone's expectations.
I've no issues with any train sounds but for one Please sir may I have a class 700 that doesn't sound like a car alarm
Economics 101 would dictate not making a product with a very small customer base. This is a niche train simulator game and therefore might not always follow what might be considered hard and fast rules elsewhere. I don’t think that a surge in purchases would just end up all in the pockets of the owners for this game that relies on ongoing sales to survive. The future would need securing and that is done by developing better products but that can’t be done with a shrinking income, which is what masses of people refusing to buy would result in. Of course people choosing not to buy is fine and normal but people calling for others to do so thinking that it will improve things isn’t and wouldn’t work, which is what I’m saying.
I've been mulling this for a couple of days, because it isn't an easy question to answer with sufficient detail to be helpful for Matt. I think for me, it is about the whole package. To use WCL as an example. If the only problem was the sound, I could live with it. If that's how the sound had to be to get that train and route, then so be it. For me, it wouldn't be a massive issue. But because there are so many other issues, it feels lazily done rather than a best effort that just isn't quite right. So sound is important, but isn't everything and if we can get more quality content but with non-ideal sound, I for one would take it so long as it was roughly right. But if the whole package is pants, then the sound issues feel more about a lack of attention to detail than a best effort that is off. Manage expectations, and deliver what you say, and I think most of us would be willing to compromise a little on sound.
But if products are selling then they're securing the future without having to develop better products.
I don't know how to answer this to be honest with you. If a train had shockingly poor audio (especially one that I am familiar with) then yes, I would steer clear of the train in particular. I only realised the relevance of audio once I got my first AP pack (MTU HST), and how it really changes the experience of driving a train. However I think good audio *needs* to be coupled with good physics, you can't really have good audio and ignore the physics. I seem to remember a sound patch for the TSW-imported HST in TSC, and although the train sounded better (an MTU rather than a Valenta on a LNER HST) the physics were off and I never saw myself reusing that HST. So it doesn't really come down to audio alone. I think I agree with dvs21a, it's more about the complete package. I think the whole train has to be done to a suitable level. A poorer sound-set will definitely be rectified by someone in the community (as we know how brilliant the community is when it comes to creating all these improvements) and as long as the train excels in other areas (i.e. modelling, features) I could live with that.
Not a deal breaker for me, audio specifics are further down on my own list for fixes/improvements, provided they don’t sound off/bad I’m more of a sound appreciater, I prefer they be as accurate as possible but it’s not usually something I’m thinking about too much when deciding on releases, very few if any trains I would recognise by sound personally
Well no. I'm sure I could list a whole slew of products that succeed with a very small customer base. Plus, if train simulators are not profitable, why are several vendors now trying to compete with DTG? This is chicken and egg. The better products have to come first, leading to more income. If you think more income will lead to better products, you're making an assumption about altruism that only works with not-for-profit organizations and charities. But the forum is full of posts every day advising people what and what not to buy. I'm sure I recall you yourself advising others to hold off on a route or wait for a sale, thereby depriving DTG of income. You can't have it both ways. Anyway I don't want to hijack a thread about sounds, so we should agree to disagree on this subject.
Not a deal breaker at all for me. As long as it sounds roughly accurate to what I would expect a train of that size/configuration to sound like. That said most of these trains and routes are nowhere near where I live. If I heard a train every day and then it was modelled in the game with different sounds I might be more worried.
I'd like for the audio to be as authentic as possible but its not a deal breaker for me. For example I quite like the SD70ACe and thought the audio was fine despite it being a tweaked Class 66. ( I just wish the number boards lit up on the BNSF SD70, nudge, nudge.) On a side note I find some of the recent US locos to be problematically loud, thinking specifically of the ES44C4 and the F125. In the external view those locos are really booming to the point where I have to dial my volume back a bunch which in turn makes all other sounds quite faint. The F125 sounds seem really good in particular but maybe 2/3 or 1/2 the volume would have been nice. DW
Well, with Matt's request for specific details, I suppose it's time for me to respond to my own post. A little disclaimer first. I'm not by any means a train expert. I've never driven a train or been in the cab of a locomotive for that matter. I don't consider myself all that knowledgeable about locomotive stats, types, horn names, etc. What I have been since as far back as I can remember is over the top passionate about the sights, sounds, feeling and experience of being by the tracks and the thrill of watching trains. That never gets old to me. So, my evaluation here can be taken with a grain of salt by the experts. This is just my thoughts and opinion from a gut level with over six decades of being nuts about trains. I took the time to load each US freight locomotive I'm familiar seeing personally in to a free roam scenario and I ran them through their paces. My OVERALL impression with them? DTG has done a really great job with these locomotives! So, did some of them give me that immersion vibe more than others? They did and here's why: I would say for me it all came down to the believability of the horns. All of the other sounds were good enough for what I need to enjoy the sim without conscious distraction. So, what's the specifics? I made a comparison video to demonstrate what I mean. In this video I start by showing a demonstration of the SPG GP-38, my least favorite horn in TSW. To me the horn sounds very thin and weak, almost toy like. It actually reminds me of a harmonica instead of strong, majestic diesel locomotive horn. You will hear in the video when the locomotive is in notch 8, the horn is barely audible. The bell is overpowering the horn and the engine , horn and bell just don't seem balanced. Next up in the video is the same demonstration using the UP SD-40. What a difference! The horn is full, strong and robust. It sounds to scale with the bell and engine and gives an overall sense of being there. It seems the balance(mix) of the various sounds play a vital roll between my least and most favorite loco sound sets, but the horn sample itself obviously has to be appropriate too. One thing that I kept thinking about while I was listening to the various horns is that for the most part none of them interact with the surrounding environment. This of course is a limitation of Unreal I suppose, but in the real world, part of the fullness and richness of the horn sound is the reverberations and reflections from the environment. To demonstrate, here is an FEC ES44C4 in the real world. Horns without that beautiful, rich, full, reverberation effect from the forest, buildings and environment sound sterile. Should samples have this in the recording or be dry? I don't know, but it would add a lot of realism in the final mix however it gets done. One final thought I stumbled on while Googling for this piece was the use of synthesis in light of the no access dilemma. Is it a viable option for clean, hi res material to work with? Apparently it's a thing and of course You Tube has some decent reference material. Lol. I was impressed with what I heard. All I know is what I saw in a few videos, but it sure looks and sounds interesting. One person even has a video of an entire library of horns made with AudioKit Synth One. So, from my perspective, DTG has an entire fleet of modern US diesel freight power. Licenses for the US class one players is in hand. Some horn refinement would be great, but not essential if any new release is at least up to the level of the UP SD-40 audio. My vote is to keep a variety of routes coming and keep honing your chops as you go. Team DTG is doing fine!
So, I ran the 47 from BPO on BPO and the 45 on NTP. This time with headphones, no sound field processing. So nothing would escape my ears. But by the life of me, the fans are there, yes, but only very far in the background and only if you hit the higher throttle notches (9-10). Even with a heavy oil train. I dunno, maybe it's a PS5 thing... And I watched a BR 103 Führerstandsmitfahrtvideo. Hell yes, those fans are really loud. The drivers must've retired stone-deaf.
Indeed. I’ve been on a 140 and loud they are. Then, the “air conditioning” was turned on (i.e. the door to the engine room was opened). You can imagine the resulting soundscape. The cab was well ventilated after that though…
Speak for yourself. I've driven AP trains and non-AP trains and I really don't notice much of a difference.
Some AP is good. The one that disappointed me though was their Class 205 Thumper. It just didn’t seem to have that throaty purr of the prototype at full power, sounded more like a fast idle. If, in the unlikely event DTG ever put a Thumper in TSW, it will need a buff.
To be honest, alot of people including myself would disagree with you. AP as I said before has built an entire business off the back of just sounds. I do notice these things massively in game, if something sounds off I just avoid it. Back when I played TSC I had nearly every sound pack to add authenticity, but also because they have nice running sounds that add to the immersion.
In my opinion the best sound engineer is pointless without knowledge where and when the sounds on the trains do appear, and why they appear.
Good for you if you don't, we are all entitled to our opinions. I'd think though quite a fair amount of people do notice a difference in the audio quality as AP seems to do well selling their products.
Indeed. The sheer amount of liveries plus branding patch, and the customisation options for different eras down to the thickness of the window frames, and the high quality modelling and texturing of the AP Class 37, and the variable clag and traction sounds are overwhelming.
Very impressive! However still hears a bit synthesizy and waaayyyy too long reverb tail on this one. I'm also not quite sure about the density. For a pure dry horn sound you need as a base, this probably is too much as well. Speaking about the frequency cutoff of the lowpass filter, it's important A. how far you go up (iow the highest target frequency) but also B. how fast the filter goes up. You can adjust this way more precisely with an ADSR or AHDSR envelope generator most synthesizer (at least the more functional or commercial ones) have and basically that means when you press a key the curve is taken by the envelope you created. The volume itself needs being adjusted in the same way.
I'd be curious to see how the best effort synthesized horn would sound with the final mix in game. Maybe that last bit of synthesizy artifacts would be inaudible. The big advantages I see with the synthesizer approach is limitless tweaking, no ambient noise interference, hi res files of any format needed, and of course no access issues to deal with. Once built, the library can be tweaked as needed per project on the fly too. A lot to like with maybe a minimal authenticity compromise if programed correctly. I haven't played with synthesizers too much. I'm a guitar picker, so most of my time in Pro Tools is spent laying down analog sources. Tweaking around with some of the freebie plugins has been fun though. You can get lost in all those adjustable parameters!
Yes, I agree. Possibilities are nearly endless. However the horn is one sound where the synthesizer can do something. I'm not exactly sure what sounds DTG is recording when they're on a recording session. This might also be an interesting subquestion: "Which sounds do people want to be authentic/original or which not?" but I can think that it could be a bit complicated to achieve some gradually proceeding sounds which might not even follow a tonal sequence like a squeeky or brummy engine humming. I personally would be really interested to see what and how DTG did in this regard already. Did they sat on a synth to get a perfect sound of it? And actually for what sound? Also Reference material is important. You would need something to aim for to always compare your work to the original and whether the sound you created is coming close the original, at the same time not losing objectivity with psychoacoustics etc. over time is a big problem to all audio engineers and music producers. A very important advice I would have to anyone creating music is to stop after a certain amount of time with the work and come back into producing with "fresh ears" after a few hours or even a few days. Otherwise you might spent countless hours "perfectionizing" things, while in fact you ruin more than you create because you lost said objectivity. Professional audio engineers also should listen back the mix on different systems (on common said example is playing the final mix/master in the car), I personally prefer listening back to over ear headphones, tiny in ear headphones and standard speakers to evaluate whether a mix of mine is good or not. The most time I use VSTs, just because I was grown up with them and don't know, have nor do got the money to acquire analog gear. I just use the abilites in Ableton or FL Studio. The funny is with the loads of freebie plugins in the web today, temptation is big to just get everything you see, you'll install it into your plugin folders, and it just get untoched there wasting disk storage. But that's not even enough. I even purchased some synths in a mood / being on sale, and almost never touched them because I preferred others. And the even more funny thing is that looking back, stock plugins are usualy just fine for one's purposes. People tend to completely overlook that and the industry wants to make us pay more and more just because they or somebody else says it would be good. How many top priced Waves or UAD plugins are in the end just another thing to accomplish something you similar you could do with your stock ones. It's a hype about it, but I just unsubscirbed to all possible newsletters wanting me to purchase more. It's insane. And yes, the amount of parameters is endless, however most of the time you go back to same parameters. I would say most of them are just something for rare to never cases. And speaking about adjusting the sound by yourself until going nuts, how often I see even professionals come back to presets (just for their effects as well as instruments, samplers, synths) and then adjusting a few bits to their taste (if at all). And for guitar purposes, I personally found the use of Echos, Reverbs and Flangers quite interesting which are more meant for synths or electronic music. Could get pretty results out of it.
While both of these are true... ...this is the main point. It has to start with the seller. But it's also important for the customers to be fair in our expectations. Making unreasonable demands is just shooting ourselves in the foot. It's also more helpful, if passing on a purchase, to state why as opposed to just passively not buying. Had I just silently not bought TSW3 and passed on future preorders, it would have just been a small drop in those buckets, not noticed except possibly as part of an aggregate. But by posting in advance that I'd be doing both those things and why (and, of course, actually following through), it's at least a bigger ripple and potentially some food for thought.
Even on my Xbox the Class 45 fans are distinctive and really do sound nice. This were on PFR with the Peak plus 11 MKIs and the fan behaved in the way I'd expect and certainly didn't require full throttle to be needed. Very strange.
This is great Matt, thank you for investing your time into this, I think it's safe to say for a lot of us, sounds are key. I don't have TSC because I only have a console, but from videos I've seen on YouTube, the SD40-2s sound much better on TSC. Maybe you could do a test run by adding TSC sounds to X engine and see if the community digs it or not. I'd it's a hit then maybe something dtg could do more with. In regards to the SD70ACe sounds, which I believe were a sort of remixing of a class 66 BEFORE the 66 got its sounds improved for SEHS. I love the new class 66 sounds, it's got much better throat and bass, which is exactly what the SD70ACe needs. The SD70ACe just feels like all treble and no power behind it, which is a shame because the model is very good. So my question/suggestion is would it be possible to re work the SD70ACE sounds again with the newer class 66 sounds to make a more throaty powerful sound?
This is why total authenticity is not always ideal. People want the engine sounds, not the fan sounds. My only issue with the sound mixing is that I can’t hear the bell from the cab when driving US freight. Otherwise, I’m never going to be able to tell if something is inauthentic. Even where I encounter the trains IRL (and for me that’s mostly the Amtrak NER, Acela, and MBTA) I only hear them through the Doppler effect when they pass by at a station.
That’s my biggest issue with the TSW version. In TSC the sounds are more balanced. Doesn’t help in the TSW version the switch to turn off the traction fans doesn’t seem to do anything.
I'm more in the middle ground for this - I can tell the difference between a 700 on AC or DC traction, but I couldn't necessarily tell the difference between a 450 and 700 DC sound. For me, it's more about the general spirit of it, but at the same time, I like that certain unique features are replicated in some way. For example, it's great that the 313 'ticking' noise happens when it's idling at a platform and it makes the whining fan noise as it accelerates - I know that those noises are about right and happen when I'd expect them to. In the same way, if we were to see a 92 in the game at some point, I'd appreciate it if it had the heavy traction fan noise, but again, I couldn't necessarily tell you exactly what it should sound like, just that it has one.
The desiro DC sounds DTG are bad period. I would be more accepting on a 450 or 444 but even then the sound is very bare. The 700 in game has little to no running sounds which doesnt help the motor situation
