The “pro-level” British steamers in TSC are too complex for me personally, I just want to drive and have the engine behave as realistically as possible, and let the AI fireman look after everything to do with the water and fire, including dampers etc. Does anyone know of one which allows that?
Amen to that. Mentioned that I bought the LNWR D2 (think it was) in the sale and ended up refunding as it was just stupidly hard. Made the Bossman stuff seem easy peezy by comparison. The Victory Works stuff seems to offer a classic mode alongside the more expert style so might be worth a shot. Only caveat there is I tried the Pannier set but found boiler pressure dropped like a stone even using AI fireman, with the result it was impossible to keep time and the usual 1000’s of XP lost for being 4 minutes late, because the author of the scenario didn’t bother relaxing the default delay penalties. Sorry (Pete) but another one I ended up refunding.
I think Just Trains did one which at least attempted that. I haven't looked at it recently enough to remember how well they did. BMG's locos can be set into a mode in which they automatically manage everything except shovelling coal; select the F4 HUD (rather than F3) and set the headlights control on the HUD to step 5. This allows you to manage the firebed level by periodic firing, which is much simpler than managing the entire boiler. Every so often, press F to open the firebox, hold R to throw a few shovels in, then press Shift-F to close the door on the deflector. You might for example find that maintaining 40% is a better match for your power demand than the 50% which selecting auto-fireman as well (fold up the fireman's seat) will maintain (in which you will have plenty of power, but the safety valves will go off constantly and it wastes a lot of coal and water). Meanwhile, SimRail is fairly obviously planning to release a steam loco (Ty2, which is essentially a BR52 with oversized headlamps) alongside the existing stable of electrics. The controls appear to be set up so that you, as the driver, are effectively giving guidance instructions to a fireman who is managing the boiler. So you can tell him to maintain a high water level and thin fire, or vice versa, without having to micromanage. That's a more realistic setup than directly managing both the boiler and driving controls simultaneously.
Honestly I've given up hoping now. DTG have left their "valued" customers out to dry with PFR and SOS unfortunately. And they refuse to comment on even the fixes like B&C formations in timetable, liveries on wagons etc. Its incredibly frustrating and we can't get anything more than a PR response. Maybe this could be due to DTG avoiding apologising for the state of their routes as it would show they accept liability for the short changing they've done to the customers or something? Either way not even Matt will comment on this. Let alone an open response from DTG that isn't just "No plans".
I think they all either support the default auto-fireman or have their own auto-fireman as an option...
It's roadmap time again and Alex mentioned steam once more. The short version is - nothing has changed, steam remains more or less dead in DTG's eyes. Alex argued that the physics team is busy with the suspension system anyways, that changing steam physics has the potential to break other parts of the simulation, and that steam is just not popular enough (people mainly want modern "new fun stuff" - his words, not mine). The only change is that DTG might consider individual updates to locos like the Jubilee or Scotsman when the opportunity arises but the fundamental, underlying physics are unlikely to change. No mention of 3rd parties this time around.
That's precisely the excuse that was used to avoid fixing many aspects of RailWorks physics over its decade+ history. Never mind that the logical way to do it in RailWorks would be to add a new physics model to do, for example, diesel-hydraulics properly. This would have left old models working as they always did, and allowed new models to be built using DH physics that actually made sense. The excuse makes, if possible, even less sense for TSW. The entire point of Simugraph was to put some clear boundaries between the physics model of any given vehicle and the core game engine. If you need to implement a new Simugraph module to do steam properly, then fine, but you should be able to do that without breaking other Simugraph modules and locos built using them. If you can't, then you royally screwed up in designing Simugraph!
Wow. Mind boggles as to how they come to that conclusion. Basically confirms their obsession with modern one handle EMU’s which are about as “fun” to drive as my Yaris. (In fact the electric motor on my hybrid makes a nicer sound than some of the TSW EMU’s). And suspension physics is a poor excuse, not needed on the grand scale of things set against the steam traction situation. More and more I am less inclined to support TSW anymore while these odd management policies persist. In fact it’s creeping up my list of titles that might need to be uninstalled to make HD space for something else.
Wow, DTG need to buck up their ideas by the sounds of it. Fixing steam should’ve been a higher priority than the suspension physics from the get-go. Suspension physics would’ve likely had potential to break other aspects of the game as well, but they still went through with that. These excuses don’t hold up well at all and just sounds like DTG really just want to take the easy way out. Alex probably didn’t intend it but his poor choice of words there almost feel like gaslighting, modern “new fun stuff”? Ugh. So it looks like DTG are sticking it into notch 4 with the modern “new fun stuff” while the more interesting eras and content get pushed aside to make basic electric traction. JT are fast becoming the only devs I want support when it comes to TSW. I genuinely hope SimRail’s steam is a success and they get some UK devs on board. Something needs to change, DTG need some competition to give them a good shake.
Surely you would not want steam in TSW, Vern. After the fiasco that was the Crewe - Liverpool route. Even in TSC it is the third party developers of steam. That have made it what it is in that game. Personally i prefer to wait and see what Simrail achieves, with steam traction. It might be rubbish, but there again it might not be. The game itself is far better than TSW already, even in early access.
You say that, but it only offers what TSW does not. They're two games, with different purposes, for different audiences. The only similarity is the trains.
I do have to admit that I found the mention of suspension physics weird. It’s such a small thing (even if more immersive) and should not have taken priority over steam. Even then, the suspension animation aren’t even correct - as late as in the last video, the axles moved but none of the parts attached to the axle. The possibility of breaking other stuff needn’t be discussed. That is true for everything they develop or patch. 3rd parties really appear as the only way out, but multiple have already confirmed ‘no’ and even if those 3rd parties Alex hinted at actually exist, they still have to work around the physics DTG refuse to touch.
Maybe once the boffins are done with fixing the suspension physics they'll have time to fix the steam physics ? Then again.
Condescending at worst, stupid at best is how I view the 'new fun stuff' comments. The roadmaps streams have become a joke. I rue the days of Sam, who has at least a passing interest and knowledge in the subject and would ask and then drill into the answer further. How long is it going to be before 'suspension' is ditched the same way Steam has? With the same old excuses trotted out as to why it's too difficult no doubt as well! How many times have we seen it before? A leopard can't change it's spots, it's always over-promise then under-deliver/string along/look there's an eagle (a one winged, half blind one but nice shiny 'new fun' feathers)!
Thankyou for the overview! It would seem once again DTG has completely missed the point. The physics are awful agreed and they are already broken enough. What imo can't be ignored is the state the two routes are in and the amount of features we were promised and sold on release which have been swept under the rug. DTG just seem to bury their heads in the sand and its infuriating lol. If DTG had spent a year fixing the steam physics and making them work I think they'd have shifted a bunch more content and other creators like Victory Works would be well on the way to creating some really worthwhile steam content.
This is what’s so frustrating. If DTG don’t want to do another steam route, that’s absolutely fine, but if this third party interest they mentioned in a past roadmap stream is real, then they should be getting back to working on steam to give them a solid foundation to work from. It’s more important than bouncy suspension physics, priorities are mixed up. It almost feels like DTG don’t want to improve their product and give players more variety. All they need to do is fix that core. If that is solid, DTG could leave the locomotive and routes to third parties that are specialised in steam traction. While they continue putting out the same old modern stuff. I’m with Gilly, I miss the days when Sam led the roadmap streams. He wasn’t afraid to ask the tougher questions and always tried to get answers for us. He probably would’ve been pushing for answers for us about steam as well. The streams feel completely corporate now, I can’t watch them anymore. Two years ago they felt a lot more community driven.
This really makes my blood boil. I mean, I must admit I am not against modern trains at all but I can tell you driving an EMU is no where near as fun as driving a 45 or 47 and they aren't as fun as driving a kettle. Always on the ball in a kettle with no time to sit back and watch green after green roll by ping by ping.
This is true, but I have said stuff like this before and its met with comments about how hard it is to drive with one handle on a route with no adverse signal aspects. I guess we live in the scrolling the gram age where you can buy a house, apply for a job and watch 5200000 hours of comedy footage all with a QR code.
The "new fun stuff" comment is odd. Does that mean that Blackpool Branches or North Trans-Pennine aren't fun? Driving a steam engine can be incredibly fun. I enjoy the modern trains too so won't disparage them as they can be immersive when well made on an interesting route. However they aren't more fun to drive than classic diesels or steam. They are different and for me the variety of different of eras of railways is important. Is this DTG's official line as it seems rather condescending? I enjoy TSW including the modern stuff but if that is all we are going to get, then my interest will start to wain.
Electrics can be fun. Had a nice run with the EN57 in SimRail last night. Lovely panoramic view out the cab, amazing traction sound and a brake rub that sent shivers up my spine. Doing stop/start average of 2km between stations didn’t seem like a bus service at all. Which is why I would be more enthusiastic about the Cathcart makeover if DTG had given us a 303 or 311 as the new train to play with, rather than the bland 380.
I suspect the ‘fun stuff’ reference reflects DTG’s perception that what people want is working lifts, collectible donkeys, conductor mode and the like - rather than any serious attempt at realistic physics, signalling systems or anything historical. In other words, for them this is very firmly a fun game, not a simulator. Ultimately, it’s their product, so they can do what they want with it. I just hope that Just Trains continue their alternative approach, and that other developers join them in time.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Several posters have expressed my thoughts about the June Roadmap and what it said and implied about the future of TSW so I won't belabor the subject. Suffice it to say that DTG's vision of a train simulator does not match mine. That " fun stuff " comment says it all, I think. If another SIM comes along that can explore the full range of eras and traction, including steam and US freight, I'll migrate to it. In the meantime I'll continue to play the older routes in my library which feature " real " trains ( including JT's Blackpool route ). But with a very few exceptions, and barring any unlikely surprises, I'll not be acquiring any new content for TSW.
A significant part of that Roadmap was devoted to the 'expert' BR 101. Or does tthat not match your idea of a simulator?
101 is a rework of an item already in the game. I'm sure some are looking forward to the extra features but ultimately once you play with the new switches or circuit breakers and get moving, it is going to haul trains and sound like the original model it is based on. And my views on cab car driving are well known... Effectively "double dipping" for revenue on an item which for 95% of its player base will not make a huge amount of difference.
Even if that loco turns out to be excellent for German aficionados, " one swallow does not a Summer make ". And DTG is not making that DLC. Besides, I'm talking about the general direction in which TSW is going. Anyone looking down from a distant planet on TSW, TSW2, TSW3 and TSW4 cannot fail to see the trend I'm describing. Or perhaps you like the " new fun stuff. "
I miss the days when DTG felt like a startup, when we were so grateful to Kuju/RSDL for resuscitating MSTS2. The early days of TSW were also exciting and (apart from Rapid Transit) there were some really interesting routes and stock proposals, a bit of old and new. I’m honestly not sure I would have gone along for the ride had I known in what state TSW would be in 2024.
Maybe that is what it was a reference to. I haven't a problem with things like working lifts, I enjoy exploring the "world" and would like to see a much more comprehensive conductor mode. However that should be secondary to realism in the route and stock which is being simulated, it also doesn't replace variety, which TSW had a reasonable amount of until TSW3 where it seems to have become quite samey, especially with UK add-ons, although I have enjoyed many of them. European add-ons have been more varied it seems.
Maybe they should relase the survey reaults. Because it sounds like we are not the majority as we think. And if the majority who play the game want modern stuff then so be it. It sad but oh well.
I think one misplaced word from Alex isn’t saying anything new. He said “fun” but that wasn’t the meaning of what he was saying. He was just repeating what we knew before he spoke. The bigger selling and more popular types of trains are favoured for the simple reason that they bring in more money. That is what we already knew. DTG can say it’s because more people want modern stuff and they are giving players what they want but that being true just means it brings in more money, so the return on development for modern content is more appealing. We also can’t pretend that steam traction is anywhere near as popular with the player base as modern trains. Even with perfect physics and a good range of locos and routes it just wouldn’t be as popular with players of TSW. Even with new people brought in because there is a great simulation and a good array of steam locos from around the world, it still wouldn’t be as popular as modern content. There are just more young people around than old people. That’s not going to change. DTG just don’t want to spend any more money developing their most expensive to produce content that will always be their least popular and therefore least profitable. That’s true whether Alex says the word “fun” when referring to modern trains or not. It’s not the word to concentrate on.
I don’t think anyone in this thread thinks that we are the majority. Trains are a niche hobby, and there are several more niches within that niche, such as steam, diesel, electric, UK, US, etc, etc. I wouldn’t even be here complaining if DTG just put some time and got the steam simulation working properly. That’s literally all they need to do, I wouldn’t care if DTG didn’t then make anymore steam routes as there are dedicated third parties to steam that could do the routes and locomotives to the high standard that the steam era, and the players deserve. As it stands, why would any third party want to develop off of an incomplete steam simulation? We’ve just got to keep speaking up about it. Hopefully, DTG will eventually come to their senses.
Well, it's nice that someone is running damage control for DTG personnel. But actually you're right, someone from DTG did us all a favor by finally " fessing up " about their future plans, even if he didn't mean to. But modern stuff bringing in more revenue is only half the equation. The other half has to do with choosing to make the cheaper and easier product. I'm sure a simple emu costs less in time and money to make than a heavy diesel or steam loco and it's accompanying stock. This business plan increases profits but diminishes the scope of the SIM. Some of us believe that a near-monopoly like DTG has an obligation to keep building a true train simulator which embraces all eras and all types of traction. After all, that's how TSW started out. That business plan has also obviously been profitable when done with care and quality and reasonable price points. Oh and in case you were not aware, old farts like me spend money too and there are plenty of us scattered among the younger player base. The low hanging fruit is not the only thing worth picking.
So DTG Alex was implying that steam “isn’t fun” by comparison? What a sad state of affairs. I wish the TS team would just kick this yuppie lot out of their offices and bring us some real trains, not just one handled emu’s that probably all use the same simugraph so are relatively cheap to produce. We should all club together and have a whip-round to send the TSW “suits” to a heritage railway steam gala somewhere, hopefully the fireman hosing down the cab will accidentally get their clothes dirty. LOL.
I reckon they are playing 'brand and shiny' as a tactic, the railway of old was place held together by a commitment to get the job done, now its a series of liveries, brand names and train names (Civity for example) which suggest hashtags and TikTok more than glamour, power and glory which applies to Locomotives like Duchess Class in Steam days or Deltics in Diesel times. The 'Market' for older stuff is still out there its just easier (even with licensing hoops) to go for what's there now. That then appeals to the people who like what they see now, who are the gaming/sim crowd as opposed to the older enthusiast crowd. I am pretty much coming to terms with the fact that I will never see what I desire in the Train Sim scene but will take something from what is produced. If what is produced starts dulling the senses (Only so many SEHS runs before it gets a bit samey) then its time to find a new sim or pastime. I built a 12 ft by 2.5 ft N Gauge layout in finescale track fully DCC and scenery and with some tech put in by an ex Train Sim user in about 2.5 years, and detailed stock for it. DTG Still haven't fixed the save issue or put sounds that work on AI trains in Steam routes in that time.
How come Matt goes completely silent when the subject of steam arises on a stream? He hasn’t uttered one word about its future, he hasn't, afaik, commented in this 17 page thread (but has on just about every other recent subject raised in the forums), you would think the executive producer would feel obliged to explain the reasoning behind steam’s abandonment.
I think steams abandonment is linked to the access to real life locos issue, issues such as sounds and physics need real life data from the real life counterpart, no that and you can’t fix its issues, that along with how much sales was doing on it probably made abandonment the only option, the biggest made mistake is probably going into it in the first place at this point, without that in the safe zone so to speak. Not much spokespersons can say what hasn’t been said, they may like steam and would as an enthusiast approach like to see it, but reality it’s not working and so it’s not getting any more development for an unknown amount of time which is the thing we already know. Not much to discuss what goes anywhere on the topic neither unless the things that matter such as access changes, all their is, is an enthusiastic want for it with grief it’s gone, that’s not good but nothing that’s going to do is helping solve the problem.
Having just played SoS in TSW4, reading this and then watching what was said on the live stream has disappointed me. Having had practice in TSC with a Steam Loco, I finally managed to properly get the locomotive moving with 10 coaches in TSW4 on the Liverpool and Crewe Route (although I forgot to set my route upon departure. : ( ) I've yet to get Peak Forest but I remember when Spirit of Steam was announced and revealed, I sat and watched the livestream that day and you could tell everyone was enjoying themselves. Now....it seems like the fire has fizzled low...too low to hold a head of steam by the unfortunate look of it. Automatic Firing hasn't made an appearance which is obviously what has been said in these 17 pages, and for sure improvements can be made to the steam physics as referenced throughout this forum. DTG, you still have my respect and thank you for not only releasing an editor for TSW4, but for at least taking a risk to introduce Steam into TSW. Whilst I disappointly understand your decision on this matter, SoS has brought me some joy in discovering what Liverpool Lime Street looked like in 1956 (someone feel free to correct me if I got the date wrong.) The point is, all we are at least asking for is improvements on the Steam Physics, whilst an automatic firing ability would be nice as well, if you could just get the physics up to standard, it could open up the door for 3rd party steam locos and allow you to focus on the modern side, which I also enjoy driving in both sims. Thank you for taking the time to at least read this. Daz
Because there isn't a way to spin it to make DTG look good. He hasn't responded to a bunch of other things as well. Pay attention to what DTG says and what they don't say, as I have said multiple times.
I do begin to wonder how much power the “Executive Producer” actually has in determining the direction of the product and that maybe the shots are being called from a much higher level within the organisation. (Visions of some Tony Soprano style caporegime in a back room, smoking a big fat cigar, “Mr. P. Get rid of steam, or you’ll be the core in a concrete bridge support.”). SoS and to some extent PFR should have been the big model layout we inherited from a rich uncle, then filled with numerous locomotives and rolling stock items to bring it to life. As commented before, the vision for TSW covering all aspects of rail simulation seems to have fallen by the wayside, along with the programmers and artists capable of achieving more than short commuter routes populated with one handle modern EMU’s.
With how DTG makes the virtual content, I think I could take my chances with their concrete. They'll probably forget the cement and promise to add it later, only for me to be waiting for it for years
Don't get all this random hate for modern EMU's. They are also very fun. Im a fan of all BR era's and fully agree DTG should commit more to steam but that doesnt mean you all have to put down EMU's. An extra handle and bad acceleration is nothing to get up on your high horse for. Can we please focus on the topic at hand instead of this silly echo chamber where EMU's are the devil
I personally don't buy this stuff about steam not being popular. I think the reason it hasn't sold well on TSW is because of the mess that was made of it. Including locos like FS which were a real opportunity to get steam right. There are a lot of people who play steam content on TS and a lot of people who visit heritage railways for steam engines specifically. We were also told BR blue doesn't sell by DTG and look at the masterpiece that JT made. WSR that timetable and remaster went down wonderfully despite the state of steam physics. I think some of it is that DTG have settled into their safe space of modern EMU conent. But I think theres more to this than meets the eye because we know Matt loves steam content but as said he's been suspiciously absent from all steam discussion. The whole situation is just a shame. A real shame. After all that spiel of "we want to take the time to get steam right" as well
It's not hate for the traction itself, it is the clear shift towards it being the only thing they make for the game. EMUs are fine and should be in modern simulation, but your game cannot be 80 % that.
No high horse and no hate, just frustrating that we had a decent stable of BR era stock and then nothing. More and more EMU routes is the main UK output. That is it in a nutshell.
Steam will return if use the players keep playing the steam routes and suggesting it on the forms for new routes or locos but they do need to work on the steam simulation in the game it's not brilliant in tsc either to be honest, but it won't get looked at in less we keep suggesting it in the forms and playing it
Can't really see many players forcing themselves to play broken DLCs to show a company they want more of that. First they should fix what they promised to fix, finish functionalities they promised to add 'soon after release' and then they should watch the natural response. Meanwhile they're stuck for almost a year on making trains bounce unrealistically... nice...
Nah, I bought SoS back in the day, Matt and the team promised multiple missing features. If they deliver on them, I'll consider PFR and perhaps future content, until then I'm hoping SR does well with Ty2.
I’m just hoping the SR steamer will be better than the Derail Valley implementation. Could never get on with that, though partly due to the workload having to keep checking the map then trying to click the junction ahead with the remote control. Hopefully SimRail will have a decent AI fireman similar to TSC or MSTS, not the “always on”, “always blowing off” of TSW.
