Enough Is Enough!!! The Ongoing Saga!!! It's Almost The 3 Year Anniversary

especially when EWS technically dont exist anymore cuz its taken over by DBcargo. hell rivet somehow have a DRS class 66 livery so DRS locos surely have to be options to be in the game??

 

Many. Gwe, ecw, drs, one, sehs, cargo pack 1 and 2, rhtt. It's also why there's like a million dostos. if there's only 1 variant, it means one change can affect all dlcs at once and it makes it difficult to test and fix

 

When drs was first announced, adam from skyhook did say it only applied to the 66. That means they have to get licenses for the other locos

 

That is a huge problem with the TSW architecture as a whole, the rolling stock should be route-independent and have one version that is up-to-date + liveries and model changes. The fact that even the slightest change can break DLCs only proves how brittle it is to begin with. The amount of copy locos and cars only inflates the game size and makes an absolute mess of which version has which functionalities.

 

A random one to throw in the ring about lighting. Continuing my A to Z playthrough of TSC now arrived at Birmingham Cross City. First scenario starts off at New Street in the dark and running ECS to Bromsgrove. What a difference! It actually looks like night in the city. They couldn't even manage to get ambient night lighting looking good on the Cathcart remaster for TSW.

Please to explain DTG how your 15 plus year old game engine does lighting so much better. Enough is enough! If you want my £40 for TSW5 then you need to sort this out...

 

It's the difference between using a proprietary engine built for the game and using one off the shelf that the developers have to make fit the game.

UE4 can do good lighting, but it depends who's behind the keyboard making the game, and that's why I am not convinced UE5 will make things (any) better.

There are times when TSW4 looks pretty good, but they are few and far between, and mostly the lighting ends up looking awful.

 

There is always something to say about this poor game

 

Hang on. I thought you'd finally given up on TSW completely a few pages ago but now you're thinking about possibly buying TSW 5?!

And I don't think the day lighting in TSC is generally as good as TSW's. It's far too diffuse to feel realistic. The whole brightness complaint is interesting because if I'm outside during mid-summer in blazing sunshine, I tend to reach for my sunglasses because, um, it's too bright.

 

I've said before that DTG made the same mistake as TS when developing TSW. TSW's design should have been completely modular - routes would only include the route, scenarios and specific assets. General assets would be separate and would be used on all routes, like the European Loco and Asset Pack in TS. Trains would each be a separate item that is again universal throughout the game. It's possible, because DTG have done it before. The Class 465 in the extended SEHS really is just the DLC version, and in TS quite often DTG would include a full loco DLC with a route, like the Talent 2 and OBB 2016 DLCs being included with the Mittenwaldbahn.

There should only ever have been one BR185, which would have been updated since the original one released.

Something I remember from my time working on TSW for a third party was that seemingly many DTG TSW assets don't have night textures. In TS, most assets have a night version which adds lit windows to buildings which have no effect on performance but add hugely to how the route looks. In TSW it seems that all night lighting is done via light sources which are quite complex in UE, and DTG have to use them sparingly to avoid performance issues.

To out it simply, if more assets had night textures (some already do and look great) they could avoid the problem of night lighting without even trying.

 

When did I say I’d given up on TSW? I am focusing on TSC at present but think you are reading too much into what I say, friend.

As regards TSW5, assuming it is that, then I’ll make a decision at the time, depending on what, if any, core improvements there are (not promised, actually there from the start) and the route pack or bundles. Chances are I won’t buy it straight off this time but if we got a BR Classic route with a new diesel like the Class 50 or an AC electric Class 86 or 87 you wouldn’t hold me back!

Back to BCC, one aspect where I do think TSW nailed it better is the Class 323. The sounds on the TSC version are a bit off to my ears, not mixed to the quality of TSW. And invariably on the TSC version, once you start running late watch that XP/AP on a career scenario drain into minus figures.

 

DTG are quite capable of producing decent night lighting in TSW. I can point to several routes going all the way back to SPG and including BPE and a number of German routes. Even ECML Is somewhat adequate. And I actually think Cathcart, while uneven, is improved from the original, though the source of the ambient light is a mystery, it's certainly not the buildings which use a very primitive " lighting " effect.

But routes like BCC and Glossop are just laughable in terms of night lighting.

What's lacking is that " consistency " that was talked up during the recent Roadmap stream. Actions speak louder etc......

 

Then its still their fault in the first place. If they didnt reuse so many god damn class 66s we wouldn't have ourselves screwed with just single 66s. How else are we gonna get more modern locomotives now, either DTG need to get their LOVE together to solve this problem other wise this problem is still gonna presist.

This

Ah

 

I am speaking to you while running a Windows 7 system. It's been 4.5 years since it stopped receiving security updates. I've had zero security issues with it during these years.

Hell, even Steam is still working on Win7. Barely, but it is. When was it supposed to stop, like, half a year ago?


I think Win10 has still got a few years in it, security updates or not, is what I'm saying
_____
Anyway, back on topic. I couldn't help but notice that in the first week after its release, the diesel BR218 has garnered about 40 reviews on Steam. The decidedly electric Class 380 crackerbox has, in the same time period, got 11. Which is barely a quarter of what BR218's got. This brings me to my question. I seem to recall Matt talking about how the focus will shift to modern, electric trains. I know that steam is dead, but have the same been said for diesel, and what was the justification? I bet it was something [inappropriate language] like "people aren't interested in it," but I can't for the life of me remember the actual quote.

 

The number of reviews doesn't have anything to do with what players want. Not every single player who buys the dlc reviews it so it's not an accurate representation of the whole picture

 

Since Steam doesn't show the number of units DLC sold, we can only guess how popular a DLC is.

Modern plastic one-handle DMU/EMU are like shake the box kits, easy to develop cut-copy-paste,
UK Diesel fleet is almost all Class 66's now.

DTG's infallible market research shows the current majority of players using thumbsticks prefer fast action stop-and-go commuter runs?

As a sensible and profitable business, DTG provides what the customer wants?

Now, what again was the direction and focus DTG's new owner Focus Entertainment gave the TSW franchise???
More of the same, or diversification?
Diversification, as we've learned from this board, requires licenses for the 'ultimate in realism', and not all carriers are willing to give a licene for free or at reasonable costs.

 

Thanks for taking the bait. I knew you'd be here, shillin', so I deliberately left the following bit out.

While the "No. of reviews" metric doesn't track exactly with the "No. of copies sold" metric, it's pretty damn close, statistics-wise. Within all games a review happens basically every ~30-50 copies sold. Within a singular genre, the spread gets tighter. Within a singular game, I imagine, it gets tighter still. There is simply no way people who bought the 380 decided, all at once, not to review it, while people who bought the BR218 decided to review their purchases to such an extent that there would be a 4x difference.

Sure, it's not an accurate representation of the whole picture. In the same way a 144p photo is not an accurate representation of the scene being captured. But it's close enough to see said picture in broad strokes. And the picture is: people (edit: paying TSW customers) in general don't give much of an eff about modern single-lever EMUs, compared to historical diesels.

 

Indeed SeventeenF the law of large numbers always wins.

 

I do get the impression that DTG are trying to exhaust the wealth of current UK one handled emu’s until they run out of subject matter. It could be that simugraphs on these units are very similar and hence involve less work in the physics dept.
Sort of a much easier build than doing a new freight loco for example.
Let’s hope and pray that DTG realise this and bring in the wow factor for the release of TSW5 (and counting). Hit us with something really special that makes us really want to go for it, rather than just compare the size of the letterbox view from the front of the latest itineration to the last one.

 

I’m going to do something I never normally do here, and that’s defend DTG, in a way. The bashing of the one handled EMU DLC’s is all well and good, but there MUST be a player base out there for them or else it wouldn’t make financial sense to build the model and route for it to go on? I agree with many on here, it’s not the most fun type of loco to drive but I’m assuming there is a reason they continue to churn these out.

 

The point is not so much bashing the one handled trains which obviously have a place in the game. It’s the fact these now seem to be the only type of train DTG’s stock builders and physics configurators can make. Give us a balance between modern and a bit more classic and keep everyone happy. If the leaks are true and WCML South or at least part of it is the UK portion of TSW5, I am looking forward to it but with the caveat every likely train apart from the inevitable Class 66 will be a one handle experience. They could have set the route back in an earlier era and given us tap changer AC electrics to drive, or are they just frightened of being inundated by support tickets from impatient players who don’t understand you can’t just put the throttle to full and let the electronics take care of it. Too impatient to tap up gradually and keep those ammeter needles just inside the yellow zone.

 

Churning them out is fine, nobody would argue with that, producing nothing else is the issue. So the people who want steam who feel abandoned and the people who want older diesels or electrics who also feel abandoned can have a bit of content.

I'm also not sure DTG grasp the fact that some older diesels can still run on modern routes on railtours but should have modern safety kit. Giving us railtours with class 45s and 40s is appreciated but it would be good if they could have TPWS and headlights as per today's standards. If somebody comes along and says they need to be totally rebuilt just to fit a few things then something is really wrong with the way TSW is set up....

Anyway crux of the problem one handle is ok as long as something else is occasionally produced.

 

For example, the Mark II carriages are now an old design, JT tarted them up a bit for Blackpool Branches which was nice but MKII stock on the mainline has CDL on them, plus tail lamps, that you can only add Tail lamps to the Mark 1s from Peak Forest and SoS is frustrating. So the only way they have Tail lamps is on timetabled services and then then they are sometimes missing. So give us new MKIIs, Air cons, a mark I buffet carriage, loco hauled MKIIIs etc etc.

As others have said, there is clearly a market for one handled EMUs but there is a market for American Freight, British Rail Locos (Diesel and Electric), Steam etc etc. DTG seem to think a Railtour with older DLCs as a tickbox exercise will keep us happy when really it's just driving players away.

 

There’s also a market for a nice Mark One RMB buffet car…

 

Why one hasn't been created yet is a mystery. It's not like there aren't any left.

 

May be wrong but different vehicle types is supposed to be a drain on memory. However its ok for EMU types to have more than 2 types of vehicle but haven't bothered with loco hauled stock of any type to have catering vehicles. That included the German IC stock.

 

How many of the German locos are one-handled? Answer: Not many. But they are popular and more keep coming out. I'm not in love with the many German routes; I prefer UK - but definitely there is more in the game than one-handled locos. I'm more concerned that there is no new Route released between April and the release of TSW5 in September.

 

Steam is an interesting one. None of us have access to the sales figures or the all important play time figures that DTG have. I suppose through their data they can see what is already popular and what isn’t, thus maybe the reason they appear to have shelved steam for now. I personally would welcome some. BR stock and would HOPE that if it is WCML South we get some stock we can buy as a standalone, if the route does indeed come with the one handled Pendo for example.

 

That reminds me of a quite delicious meal I was served on a UK passenger train restaurant car about a thousand years ago.
I wonder, do any of the longer distance trains in the UK still have full-service restaurant cars?

 

So, the leaks were real.

Honestly, I don't feel bad for DTG. This wouldn't have happened if they would have been straight up about TSW being an annual release now and didn't ignore the huge issues with TSW (some of which existing since TSW 2020) - we're PAYING for it for god's sake.

 

DTG ain't to blame for what happened over the weekend.

Someone was given confidential information, and decided to share it with someone else, knowing full well what would happen.

 

It wouldn't of happened if the NDA was adhered to. Unfortunately this puts the beta testers in a bad spotlight and means it's unlikely they'll look for more anytime soon, which might mean less feedback. Every year we all like a speculation and the odd tease, it makes for good discussion without giving it all away. But the recent saga was a step too far. DTG, like any other developer, is a business, I think people sometimes forget that...

 

Just railtours and sleepers now I think

 

Funny that I never even looked in that thread over the weekend, I thought it was related to UK 3rd Party stuff, now I had to dig thru the TSC discord for context.

 

We’re talking about content that’s a matter of weeks away & DTG’s only discussion strategy was to announce the announcement. I certainly wouldn’t have done what a certain person did, nor do I condone it - but it does shed some light on the fact that DTG are far too tightlipped.

I don’t expect a full rundown of the content, but for something that’s likely going to be in hand by September, I’d expect to know more about it than ‘New Content’.

 

I agree. The "announcing of the announcement" in the July roadmap was destined to go over like a lead balloon, and it was WAY too long between then and the DTG Direct in August.

They should probably done the Direct instead of the July roadmap (this Tuesday would have been perfect, ironically), and then used the August and Sept roadmaps to keep the hype going until launch.

It's easy to see/say in retrospect, but DTG do have a reputation of being leaky so they probably should have known it would be hard to keep fully under wraps.

 

Agreed. Did not like the x5 "New Content - To be announced" If they can't say anymore on it then they shouldn't of mentioned it till at least a week or few days before announcement, that would've been a better time to get us all geared up. Otherwise they could've said something else, hinting if it's a new route, game feature etc.

 

Yep, there was 0 need to put any of those listings on the roadmap. DTG dug their own hole with that, that content has likely been with Beta for a while, it’s only when everyone wanted to know what it was that it got leaked.

We’re talking about a community that can work out a new DLC, from an image of a carriage through the windows of a train inside the image.

I get it’s disappointing for the devs, but even now they have an opportunity to take control of the conversation & we can go back to one of the only enjoyable discussions I’ve been involved in on the forum in months. Not deleting any mention of the thing we all know about. All for the sake of a pre-recorded video in a month.

 

I must admit whilst i have no issue waiting until 20 August for the new route announcements, it did seem strange to announce that new content was coming that cannot yet be named around 6 weeks before it would actually be revealed.

i think 2 weeks is optimal for any new announcement, anything more is just unnecessary, which i kind of think this whole saga may have proved

 

While I understand the decision to nuke the thread in question, it all seems a bit pointless given there are now scattered references everywhere to the UK route, most people are fairly positive about the prospect of it being at least part of the southern WCML. Perhaps the thread should just have been locked, with any pictures removed and cleaned up as required.

If it was that critical, why was action not taken on Saturday morning rather than allowing the discussion (and excitement) to build?

A major balls up in terms of tester integrity but in some ways an unexpected PR coup given as stated the total vagueness of the last road map.

As the old saying goes, once the smoke is out of the chimney - it's hard to put it back. Maybe DTG should adopt a bit of flexibility and move things up a bit in terms of official announcement.

 

I also get why the threads were nuked. This is their official forum and they have to protect their currently in development routes.

However, the entire community beta team being nuked won’t end well. They’ve caught a lot of stuff pre release and their suggestions have helped make improvements. Time will tell to see if their loss has a significant impact.

 

I just like how JD's post about the weekend's activities refered to content coming to 'Train Sim World', whereas every other piece of official comms we've got about new routes has said 'Train Sim World 4', is JD saying we're getting a new core game?

 

Sadly the majority of the beta team who abide by the NDA and maintain their integrity suffering the actions of one or two idiots is a real shame. Both in terms of the efforts they make on our behalf and the future of testing.

Would be interesting if that changes how they approach testing, but with something as diverse as a railway simulator some sort of external beta over a cross section of users many with real railway experience is pretty much essential to a quality product. Maybe they will just recruit new testers, this time vetting a bit more carefully to weed out those who just want to play the title free a couple of months before release and incapable of keeping their gobs shut.

 

I think as a whole we suspect TSW5. Personally I’d rather see a new bundle & stick to TSW 4, so DTG can actually finish adding what they promised to it, along with improving existing features & not being able to keep up.

 

Beta team depends now on how quickly the mole can be caught - and I am sure they've left digital traces somewhere. Maybe they are man enough to reveal themselves.

I think Beta team will come back, probably with much stricter NDAs declaring more severe measures against contract breaches - who knows what else could be leaked. It doesn't matter if it's "only" screenshots or people are now looking forward to WCML - trust must not be abused.

As for the testing, the whole forum is still a Beta testing team anyway, discovering many bugs five minutes after playing a new release.

 

THIS!

 

I've only been playing for around 4 months, but is there some history to why DTG don't announce what the routes are when they say there is a new route coming. It seems bizarre to me, especially as someone who runs a business and one of the first things I was told and advised was "be open and honest, upfront and let people know what is going on - that way you'll often head off any issues or complaints". It seems DTG operate on the polar opposite of this.

I understand with third party routes, as things can get heavily delayed or even disappear. But first party routes? I can even get the core summer bundle, keep it under wraps and do a big announcement. But for other routes and DLC. I really don't get sticking "UK route" on a roadmap 6 months out, saying you can't say what it is, repeating this for 6 months then finally saying something 2 weeks before release. Why not for example, January you announce a new UK route and say what is it and that is is coming Summer. Then spend 6 months dropping a few teasers and WIP screenshots and building excitement for what it actually is rather than everyone deciding in their head it is the route they want and convincing themselves of that fact, then getting annoyed when it isn't said route they've convinced themselves it will be.

 

Indeed, that's a unique DTG thing it seems. Afraid to announce TSW5 or upcoming stuff - but there's a history of failures and broken promises preceding the decision.

SCS Software (ATS/ETS2) do announce their projects far ahead, and people know what's to come, there's no secrecy. They only leave the release date open, and it's released when it's done, usually only needing minor patches, mostly none at all.

 

I know in the thread that must not now be mentioned someone referred to water marking, but that's probably more to trace if pre release copies of the game turn up on warez or file sharing sites.

Think Dresden to Riesa might have fallen foul of an early announcement, then the scope of the route was curtailed leading to a bit of disappointment. However at this stage you are probably quite correct that work is advanced enough the project would not be binned, certainly not to the point they couldn't say, "Well yes, we're bringing you part of the route formerly known as the LNWR Premier Line, but full details of the extent and the included traction and rolling stock will be briefed out in due course." In fact they could announce something to that effect now and make a lot of people very happy.

 

Makes me think that some licencing may have to be finalised or indeed the scope is still not 100% defined. The announcement of an announcement is something that doesn't sit to well with me. Not sure exactly why but all the forum chatter will carry on regardless unless every thread gets shut down. Bachmann in the model world have started announcements with fairly short notice and in once case with the retooled 37 it was out the same day if I remember correctly. This announcement after announcement and then finally a release date feels a bit over cooked....

 

I know DTG are a somewhat unconventional company, but it does seem a very odd way to treat customers. Have a leak of some WIP content which most people who visited the forum over the weekend have seen, digested and now all over social media DTG can't touch. But please don't discuss it until we say you can.

IMHO they need to read the current, relatively still buoyant, mood about a Premier Line coming to TSW and just get on with the announcement. To coin the old battle cliche, no plan survives first contact with the enemy, so at least consider bring Dovetail Direct forward a couple of weeks or just allow academic discussion to take place.