Enough Is Enough!!! The Ongoing Saga!!! It's Almost The 3 Year Anniversary

It's been tried many times - but ironically NOT wanted by DTG. Even though it's free

 

But it clearly shows TSW base is an annual releae they expect profit on as well.

They have been quite clear people just don't like thier answers alot of the time.

They clearly said we are stopping researching steam physics and it still took them multiple posts and months before people finally started accepting it. Same with NA frieght.

Not saying you personally but it seems if someone doesn't like their answer alot of times it turns into they are lying or not being clear enough because some can't accept said answer or reasoning.

They admitted that going forward with more modern locos and routes because that sells more. And then people are all up in arms of how is that possible. That can't be true.

Again just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean they are lying or misleading. It's great to show there is a following for older content but their numbers indicate its not a majority, accept it.

I don't even think the people who regularly communicate on the forums would even hot 30% who play the game. Most people just enjoy the games and read the news articles for upcoming content anyways so even our voices are not a majority.

Edit* not that in the past they weren't shifty they very well were but just in the last year I've noticed they have been more honest with us with what they say to us. Quieter on future stuff yes but thats not misleading.

Especially the great TSW2 pause to fix all the bugs, and bam TSW3 came out of a hat.

 

I don't think you understand the fundamentals of how SimuGraph works. There's nothing about steam simulation in the "core game".

 

Its probs the higher ups or whoever owns DTG just being bunch of corporate idiots and ordering DTG in doing so. It seriously sucks no matter is it the higher up ordering DTG doing this or DTG themselves doing this. Why cant TSW be like TSC and just be like that. Everything feels like a Apple iPhone/iPad situation.

 

Now you made me drool...

 

390001 hasn't been online for quite some time, and i don't think that was his choice, if you know what i mean

 

Been there, done that. Thread was locked for being 'too similar' ??? It's still nonsensical to keep the bulk of the discussions on this forum on a ragepost that was made a year ago and has snowballed into being the largest thread on the forum...

 

Not for or against, just an objective observation.

How many developers interact with the community like Dovetail do?

I've not come across any, but then I don't play many games these days.
I would argue that their willingness to interact and communicate is a double-edged sword.

It makes us feel closer to whats going on behind closed doors, but at the same time, it opens them up to the criticism that litters every thread on this forum.

As far as I'm aware, there is no requirement for them to do so. They could shut down communication, roadmaps etc and then like every other developer we get DLC when we get it.

The reason for not advising of what's coming up, I expect, is to build suspense and anticipation, thus keeping the community engaged with the product.

Sometimes I think we should be mindful of the above, as some of the posts I see are a little over exuberant. Keep kicking the cat and it will eventually remove itself from the position!

 

None.

 

Nonsense.

 

Exactly. I know i have asked or mention about this before. Feels like they never listen in terms of suggestions and sometimes on the bug fixing end. Again the bloody class 91, mk4 and mk4 DVT for ECML, lot of mentions but always ignore because apparently "it doesnt meet their standards" -_- yea i am sure when it is when it has been suggested a billion times by people on the fourm, feels like it should be justified. Some routes that were taken into consideration but then was executed utterly poorly.

 

Same goes for their commitment to livestreaming as opposed to only presenting pre-produced videos that show only perfection (i.e. standard marketing practice everywhere else).

 

When did DTG say the 91 'doesn't meet their standards'? Devastated if this is real, but never heard that from them myself. Any questions about it I've heard just have had vague or no response.

 

DTG standards seem to be if its not an EMU with one handle it cannot be developed. Seeing as the leak suggested another two more EMUs to add, as that is apparently is what everyone wants. Upside though is at some point in the next five years they will run out of EMUs to develop, so we might get another diesel then....

 

please dont take my word for it, what i said about not meeting standard was just a shorten version of what I concluded after watching DTG said about back in the June 2024 Roadmap stream during the LAMP OIL part. Simple and short its a process they use to decide what to make for TSW. Licensing, Anticipation, Mix, Prominence, Opportunity, Interest and Limitations. From what they explained on stream and me trying to fit in the Class 91 and MK4 in all this, at least to me the Class 91 and MK4 ticks all the boxes, but if that is the case the Class 91 and MK4 should've been made by anybody now yet here we are, no developers seem to be paying attention to it. So either its on surface that the developers (including 3rd party ones) are simply ignore suggestions, or this one which seems to be more realistic, in one way or another that the Class 91 and MK4s doesnt fit the LAMP OIL process and hence was not considered to be made, at least if this is from a developers perspective. It could be one element of the LAMP OIL is preventing the Class 91 and MK4 to be made. Thats what I think anyway.

tbf in terms of the UK, the ever only diesel we are getting is new 66s in a different skin cuz apparently "they have many variants to bug check so new diesel is not possible." or aka only getting them in BR era routes. For other countries like US or Europe. God knows.

 

Most interact more than DTG do! How is Dovetail especially communicative?

 

I suppose you don't know about monthly roadmaps.

 

As far as I'm aware DTG have never mentioned the Class 91, and the LAMPOIL process has little to do with it.

There are dozens of new suggestions made every week. DTG and other developers do not need to read them, let alone develop and release them. It would be a terrible way to develop DLC - this is the same no matter how popular or unpopular a suggestion is. Additionally, developers have to take into account how doable a suggestion is. If I suggested Fowler's Ghost, even if it received one thousand upvotes in an hour no sane developer would try to make it, because there is no way to make a realistic version of it. This applies to licensing and other issues too.

As for the Class 91 + Mark 4 set, there are some notable issues in regards to making it:

• Alongside the Class 91 with both types of cabs, at least five different types of coaches would need to be modelled, including the DVT.
• LNER may not be willing to license the train or its livery to DTG or other developers. The 225 sets are due to be replaced within the next few years by (Heaven forbid) CAF Civities, and DTG has previously had issues licensing soon to be outgoing trains.
• DTG would need to develop Time Division Multiplex, assuming equivalents of it are truly simulated in TSW at all. As we have seen, some things that are believed to be simulated in TSW by the majority of players have turned out to be a facade, added before we had the opportunity to call their bluff.
• Additionally, DTG may want to add an AAR simulation to allow the Mark 4s to be used with Class 67s, although as those are not in TSW yet, 66s would need to substitute.

It is worth noting that DTG have developed a Class 91 for Train Simulator, however it is abysmal and only made tolerable by the AP enhancement pack.

Finally, DTG and other developers may want to develop a certain train or route (I have no doubt there are people working for DTG who would like to make the Class 91) but choose not to, or can't. Trying to find an exact explanation for why the Class 91 has not been made yet is a fruitless task, because DTG don't need to explain themselves when they don't make something.

 

Still a form of communication though.

 

So hopefully they Jack it all in then, and don't bother going forward.
Remember one thing that doesn't interest you personally, may others. I have no interest in German content, but doesn't mean they shouldn't make it or talk about it.

As I said on my original post, I'd rather they continue doing what they do, as at least it gives us an insight to whats happening.

Alternatively, not doing it would be a cost and time saving for DTG, especially for someone in Matts position.

Hell they may as well sack all the community managers and staff whilst they are at it, as if they don't communicate with us, they don't need to manage it. More money for the shareholders In wages saved, and no more daily defense of their business strategy.

 

Most developers (that put out content at the same rate as DTG) have monthly "here's what you'll be able to buy from us in the future" articles.

 

In a nutshell LAMPOIL should be LHF. Low Hanging Fruit. They will run out of these EMUS, I guess though then TSW2030 will be cooking! Then start the EMU conveyor belt again.

 

If its not on the Roadmap...

 

What does Time Division Multiplex and AAR mean in this context please Doomotron ? I've googled them, but still unsure. Thanks

 

In effect, they're the way DVTs interact with the locomotive. To simplify it a lot...

TDM is used by:

• ScotRail Class 47s
• Class 86
• Class 87
• Class 89
• Class 90
• Class 91
• DBSOs
• Mark 3 and 4 DVTs

There may be a few more that I've forgot.

AAR (Association of American Railroads) is used by:

• Class 57 - Probably
• Class 59
• Class 66
• Class 68
• Class 69
• Class 70
• Class 88
• Class 93 and 99 - TBC
• Wrexham/Chiltern Mark 3 DVTs
• Arriva DBSOs - Possibly, not certain
• Arriva Mark 3 DVTs
• TFW Mark 4 DVTs

This is a different system that has effectively replaced TDM. It seems to be more compatible than TDM, which had multiple versions, so in theory a Class 57, 59 and 88 could work in multiple. I am sure there are more limitations though.

For more information, see this thread on RailUK Forums.

 

This thread is once again going to be booming in August.

and i bet it’ll be the same stuff as last year…

 

But you said they don't communicate.

The roadmap proves they do.

 

For a point, EMT and GWR HSTs, all of which have different mk3 variants and maybe less notable, the seating configuration. If DTG back then and recently even skyhook can create MK3s for the HSTs i dont see why you can't with a MK4.
What way does licensing here a problem? They have the LNER license thats one problem solve already. Unless the train itself needs another license which could explain or make what you said make sense. And by all means since I never heard of this before when did DTG had issues licensing soon to be outgoing trains. Were they similar cases to other trains they were gonna do but due to this issue said train was never made?

But in the end in a nutshell, screw any old trains because if "DTG has previously had issues licensing soon to be outgoing trains." Then we are basically OFF MOST of UK BR era built trains that was working within the 2000s. So thats basically 90% (i made the number up, its most in short) of the old trains running in the UK are completely off limits to TSW now and probably never be added into the game. Well thats just infuriating.

 

Good. If this thread gets big enough then maybe DTG will listen and see how unhappy some parts of the community are and address the issues at hand.

 

I'd say over 100 pages is enough to tell how frustrated people are.

 

MSFS does monthly roadmaps too.

 

Except that-

-just means that they don't communicate more than other developers, not that they don't do so at all. And frankly I agree, plenty of indie devs interact on or more than DTG do, and certainly I would say some bigger companies like SCS & Asobo do just as good, if not better. Furthermore their secrecy around upcoming content, and their poor track record with bug fixes and upcoming features can't be ignored. AAA companies are usually rather secretive, but DTG makes companies like Nintendo look open with how short their reveal to release timing are.

There's also things like the SCS Blog, very different method of providing info, but honestly you probably learn a lot more keeping up with that than DTG's roadmap or forum posts.

 

I used to really doubt the answers of 'BR Blue/Steam doesn't sell' and the idea that modern EMUs being all we get is actually following market demand. Lately however I've kind of had my perspective changed, and I actually do believe there's some truth to it. Not long ago I heard about and decided out of curiosity to try out a train sim built in Roblox, called British Railway. I actually found it surprisingly good for a Roblox game in physics and controls, it almost felt like a sort of 'TSC Lite' and the GUI is certainly designed as such. I'll attach in a few pics I took for those curious.

The main point is that naturally with Roblox being the platform that it is, it is primarily inhabited by a much younger audience, exactly the reason DTG wants this TSW: Tycoon to be a thing. And you're in a live multiplayer, and there's a chat. That leads me on to what I've noticed which has slightly changed my perspective on TSW itself.

Ask these younger people in that chat what their favourite trains are, the ones they love to see. Many of them are surprisingly knowledgeable, they have a genuine interest and actually know things. But they won't give you the answers of classic HSTs, rumbling old 37s or anything like that. I've never even seen someone mention something so recent as the Class 90, and that's actually in that game. They list off trains like IETs, Pendolinos, Electrostars, Desiros ect. They'll list off all these classes knowing exactly what they're talking about, and generally speaking most of these trains won't be any older than the turn of the millennium.

That this generation are such prolific gamers probably explains where this market demand for modern day, one handled EMUs actually comes from, and to an extent I actually get it. I equally balance for both, my childhood was spent watching rumbling and screeching Pacers and Sprinters crawling up and down the Welsh valleys at a time when they hardly looked like they had been updated since privatisation started. Theirs however was defined by the very trains that now exist, the network as we see it today. Not heavy diesels thrashing up Lickey Incline or London Paddington echoing with the idling HSTs, but a tilting Pendolino, the marvel of an IET switching from electric to diesel, the thrill of having travelled at 140mph on HS1. Also this audience absolutely play TSW as many of them said that they do, or at the very least they wanted to but their hardware won't allow them to do so.

Understand that I'm not in any way hating on this generation, time and people move on and gravitate towards what's familiar to them, it is what it is. But I didn't truly believe DTG's reasoning for our new trend of one handled EMUs before, but after having experienced it in such great numbers, I honestly think I do now. And no, it doesn't make me any more satisfied with it. If anything it affirms to me that this particular matter is never going to change.

 

People hated the Deltics for replacing the A4'S and then people hated the HST's for replacing the Deltics and now people hate the Azuma's for replacing the HST's It's a wierd repetitive cycle in the Railfan community, but it just boils down to people preferring what they grew up with.

 

however in recent days. it seems to change and said hate kinda became "ah the good old days". All these trains mentioned above have notable achievements. One of which is utterly miserable and you should know what i am talking about.

 

Agree, that will never change 'it was better in the good old days' progress is progress sometimes good sometimes backwards. The railway world is a large and varied fan base.

Without JT and Rivet we would be left with not TSW 4 or 5 but TSW EMU for UK routes that is the biggest issue, we get told of another highly requested loco and its yet another EMU... I understand they may be popular but so popular it is year after year of EMU route and then EMU loco release? We are still waiting for a proper electric loco think 86, 87, 90 or 91 never mind a diesel loco 50, 55, 56, 58, 60. Yet we have more flavours of Electrostar and now Desiro than found in an ice cream parlour. OK the same is true of the 66 'shed' in more colours than the rainbow.

 

I wouldn't be so sure, a lot of really young or really old gamers tend to favor more casual PC and/or phone games from what I gather. Once you're talking people who build PCs specifically for gaming or play on console you're talking that's largely 20's to 40's crowd at that point. And with TSW's hardware demands I imagine a lot of that demographic's probably more representative of the general population than Roblox's demographic's are.

A part of my bafflement from DTG's stratagy is that surely we should be getting more content set specifically from the 1990's or 2000's. Yet speaking from the US side since it's what I can name off the top of me head we get routes with PTC even though they won't even implement it, and we get things like Tier-4 GE's and the ACS-64 over things like earlier standard cab GE units, or the AEM-7. I find the Amtrak example particularly baffling since the ACS-64 was practically brand new when it was added to TSW (2018 is when the OG TSW1 only NEC came out, and they had barely made it five years in service at the time). And as noted a lot railfans don't typically like the absolute most modern units, so I don't buy that they're being picked because of demographic preference entirely.

 

More colours than the rainbow? All I'm gonna say on that is...
DB - GWE
EWS - GWE
EWS - ECW
EWS - SEHS
EWS Dirty - RHTT
EWS Dirty - ECML
DRS - EDN
ONE - EDN
EWS - CL1
EWS - CL2

When talking about TSW, I can see the sense in what you're saying about PC requirements. It is true that generally speaking, people don't get to build big gaming rigs until they're at least in their 20s.

Console, however, is another matter. Consoles are far more affordable and accessible to younger audiences, and I couldn't give you the exact source but I swear I recall it being said more than once by DTG staff that around if not over half of TSW's playerbase is on consoles. We can't see the numbers or demographics for certain so none of this is concrete of course, but we can infer possibilities. One thing that is certain though is that for that young person who's got a brand new PS5 and a budding interest in the railways they grew up with, they'll go looking on the PS5's store for train sim games and they'll find TSW and... erm... yep, that's it.

In the end I reckon it's a combination of two different factors. Firstly, a console is far more accessible than a gaming PC rig for someone of a younger generation. Second, PC players have a vast array of different options for train simulators that all have their ups and downs, consoles almost exclusively have TSW. The accessibility of the platform and the absence of competition for consoles almost funnels them in, maybe not to such an extreme that they dominate the playerbase but certainly to the point where they play a significant part in the numbers that DTG sees.

 

A console is still a significant expense, especially as something that doesn't have any productivity uses, which phones and PCs do. And as far I understand it many people grow up with those now, and actively prefer sticking with PC's and phones instead. Incidentally the same applies to many foreign countries where consoles never took off in popularity. China has a sizeable mobile and PC market, but consoles are a really tiny part of the equation, even though they aren't as restricted as they used to be. A lot of children don't grow up with them like they did in the 90's or 2000's, and thus don't have a preference for them like the 20's and upward crowd does.

I've actually been trying to find that statistics I was looking for, and been having trouble finding them. (Most of the stuff I keep getting's about gaming as a whole, not specifically console gaming, which is what I need) but I did find one place that back this up.
https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1221424/us-console-gamers-by-age
(Heads up, for some reason it showed me it on the first visit, but it's apparently a premium chart, so your mileage may vary)

And at least amongst the late-teens there really doesn't seem to be a huge amount interested in them, compared to the 20's and above. Granted the chart doesn't talk about the 17 & below demos, so maybe there's some huge demo of 13 to 15 year olds who are just massive console players. But at least from what I've heard many of the people who grew up with smartphones actually stick to them as their main gaming device.

 

I didn't say that.

Have you considered that the userbase of a game focused on modern UK trains is going to be biased towards those interested in modern UK trains?

 

And i am not gonna lie, the amount of times (which is 2 times) that the sound of the 350 was used. About time they finally make a 350.
I dont even know are other locos coming because DTG is stuck with the 66 due to their own doings.

 

You're right, I did consider that. Granted that game's available classes aren't all absolutely modern, some are old enough to have been in service during the BR Blue era and they do in fact feature their old liveries from that time, but they are all at the very least classes which were still in service pre-covid (the 142 and 90 among them having been retired in 2020). My observation is not intended to summarise the entire generation under one label, obviously no two people are the same. I personally in fact have interests significantly 'retro' for my age group. My point is that I had simply not seen that many people being that dead focused on modern trains before, and it opened my eyes a bit more to the possibility that they do in fact play a part in TSW's market.

Of course on Roblox, there are dozens of railway games focusing on all sorts of eras, and steam enthusiasts will focus on games dedicated to that. That being said however, I also can't ignore the fact that there are two biggest and most popular railway games on that platform: British Railway (the one I played) and SCR. Both of those games focus solely on modern, often electric, traction. The steam and other retro games comparatively speaking, are practically dead. We can all make of that what we will, but what I make of it is what I already said:

 

You said this, which is pretty much the same thing:

 

To be fair. Its probably due to limitations that older trains cant be added as mention before. I personally dont find the ones on roblox as much fun compared to games like TSC or TSW as much as how I play roblox. I kinda lost on playing the ones on roblox cuz it just doesnt satisfy me enough

 

Honestly the same. This particular one I played, I played it until I had every train and livery, and then there's not anything left to do except drive random services for fun. And for that, I find TSW more engaging in physics, graphical detail, freedom of choice, every factor imaginable really.

 

I can't help but feel there are a lot more factors in the popularity of Roblox games than just what classes they feature. This sort of survey would perhaps be better conducted on more neutral ground.

Especially means

"Not especially communicative" does not mean the same thing as "not communicative".

 

The thing is though, did it work last year? Or the year before, or even the year before that?

DTG is unfortunately gonna go down this path, and people are going to have to suck it up overtime. It’s not an ideal thing, but this is what DTG is doing, and no one can stop them, don’t you think people have tried before?

 

The DTG that made the GWR HST doesn't exist anymore. The DTG we have now can't be bothered to model one new Mark 1 type, can only include second class coaches with the Semmeringbahn, and couldn't be bothered to make the DB cab car.

As for Skyhook, they can do what they want, but it's worth noting that the external coach models are almost identical, and only the interiors needed to be modified - as I'm sure you can imagine, that's a lot less work than making an entirely new 225 set.

Just because DTG have the license doesn't mean they can do whatever they want with it. It's wrong to assume that because they were able to release the Class 801 in LNER livery that they can do it for the Class 91.

While this is only speculation, LNER seem to be brushing the Class 91s under the carpet. On their website there isn't a single photo of them, and I can't find them mentioned on the site either - even on the 'Our Trains' page. They're painted in the InterCity livery rather than the LNER livery. It screams 'don't associate them with our brand', although ironically in train enthusiast culture the Class 91s are rated leagues over the 80x units.

While it isn't clear when DTG lost the GWR license, them not being able to release the 150 in that livery raises some red flags. GWR were absolutely not happy with the outgoing FGW livery being represented. There were additionally rumours that DTG were not allowed to release main line DB diesels, although this turned out to be false. Additionally they couldn't get the Class 483s in London Transport red because of SWR licensing - whether or not it is an issue with the 483s themselves or SWR as a company is not clear.

No, it doesn't, because even if their current operators aren't happy with them being represented (which seems to be in the minority, but still possible), they can still use branding from past operators. South West Trains in TS and EMT in TSW have only been used because later operators don't seem to be willing to give out licenses, and as SWT and EMT are owned by the Department for Transport they don't need to worry.

And, of course, they can always go back to BR as they have done before.

 

Also remember that licensing arrangements are per product, not universal. Take the boom in Scotrail content we've had recently for example. That's not a single license allowing them to do whatever the want with that branding. There will be a dedicated license for Cathcart and the 314, E-D and the 385, FCL and the 170, the 380, and the 158. Anything you have to purchase separately from something else, that will have its own specific licensing deal.

A good example of this was with LIRR. MTA wanted the changes to the safety systems in order to greenlight the route, and that meant they had to alter the M7 appropriately as it was included in that product. They did not however have to alter the M3's safety system, as that is its own product and therefore has its own licensing deal from years ago.

 

Surely we're coming up to the 1 year anniversary to this thread