Enough Is Enough!!!

A console is still a significant expense, especially as something that doesn't have any productivity uses, which phones and PCs do. And as far I understand it many people grow up with those now, and actively prefer sticking with PC's and phones instead. Incidentally the same applies to many foreign countries where consoles never took off in popularity. China has a sizeable mobile and PC market, but consoles are a really tiny part of the equation, even though they aren't as restricted as they used to be. A lot of children don't grow up with them like they did in the 90's or 2000's, and thus don't have a preference for them like the 20's and upward crowd does.

I've actually been trying to find that statistics I was looking for, and been having trouble finding them. (Most of the stuff I keep getting's about gaming as a whole, not specifically console gaming, which is what I need) but I did find one place that back this up.
https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1221424/us-console-gamers-by-age
(Heads up, for some reason it showed me it on the first visit, but it's apparently a premium chart, so your mileage may vary)

And at least amongst the late-teens there really doesn't seem to be a huge amount interested in them, compared to the 20's and above. Granted the chart doesn't talk about the 17 & below demos, so maybe there's some huge demo of 13 to 15 year olds who are just massive console players. But at least from what I've heard many of the people who grew up with smartphones actually stick to them as their main gaming device.

 

I didn't say that.

Have you considered that the userbase of a game focused on modern UK trains is going to be biased towards those interested in modern UK trains?

 

And i am not gonna lie, the amount of times (which is 2 times) that the sound of the 350 was used. About time they finally make a 350.
I dont even know are other locos coming because DTG is stuck with the 66 due to their own doings.

 

You're right, I did consider that. Granted that game's available classes aren't all absolutely modern, some are old enough to have been in service during the BR Blue era and they do in fact feature their old liveries from that time, but they are all at the very least classes which were still in service pre-covid (the 142 and 90 among them having been retired in 2020). My observation is not intended to summarise the entire generation under one label, obviously no two people are the same. I personally in fact have interests significantly 'retro' for my age group. My point is that I had simply not seen that many people being that dead focused on modern trains before, and it opened my eyes a bit more to the possibility that they do in fact play a part in TSW's market.

Of course on Roblox, there are dozens of railway games focusing on all sorts of eras, and steam enthusiasts will focus on games dedicated to that. That being said however, I also can't ignore the fact that there are two biggest and most popular railway games on that platform: British Railway (the one I played) and SCR. Both of those games focus solely on modern, often electric, traction. The steam and other retro games comparatively speaking, are practically dead. We can all make of that what we will, but what I make of it is what I already said:

 

You said this, which is pretty much the same thing:

 

To be fair. Its probably due to limitations that older trains cant be added as mention before. I personally dont find the ones on roblox as much fun compared to games like TSC or TSW as much as how I play roblox. I kinda lost on playing the ones on roblox cuz it just doesnt satisfy me enough

 

Honestly the same. This particular one I played, I played it until I had every train and livery, and then there's not anything left to do except drive random services for fun. And for that, I find TSW more engaging in physics, graphical detail, freedom of choice, every factor imaginable really.

 

I can't help but feel there are a lot more factors in the popularity of Roblox games than just what classes they feature. This sort of survey would perhaps be better conducted on more neutral ground.

Especially means

"Not especially communicative" does not mean the same thing as "not communicative".

 

The thing is though, did it work last year? Or the year before, or even the year before that?

DTG is unfortunately gonna go down this path, and people are going to have to suck it up overtime. It’s not an ideal thing, but this is what DTG is doing, and no one can stop them, don’t you think people have tried before?

 

The DTG that made the GWR HST doesn't exist anymore. The DTG we have now can't be bothered to model one new Mark 1 type, can only include second class coaches with the Semmeringbahn, and couldn't be bothered to make the DB cab car.

As for Skyhook, they can do what they want, but it's worth noting that the external coach models are almost identical, and only the interiors needed to be modified - as I'm sure you can imagine, that's a lot less work than making an entirely new 225 set.

Just because DTG have the license doesn't mean they can do whatever they want with it. It's wrong to assume that because they were able to release the Class 801 in LNER livery that they can do it for the Class 91.

While this is only speculation, LNER seem to be brushing the Class 91s under the carpet. On their website there isn't a single photo of them, and I can't find them mentioned on the site either - even on the 'Our Trains' page. They're painted in the InterCity livery rather than the LNER livery. It screams 'don't associate them with our brand', although ironically in train enthusiast culture the Class 91s are rated leagues over the 80x units.

While it isn't clear when DTG lost the GWR license, them not being able to release the 150 in that livery raises some red flags. GWR were absolutely not happy with the outgoing FGW livery being represented. There were additionally rumours that DTG were not allowed to release main line DB diesels, although this turned out to be false. Additionally they couldn't get the Class 483s in London Transport red because of SWR licensing - whether or not it is an issue with the 483s themselves or SWR as a company is not clear.

No, it doesn't, because even if their current operators aren't happy with them being represented (which seems to be in the minority, but still possible), they can still use branding from past operators. South West Trains in TS and EMT in TSW have only been used because later operators don't seem to be willing to give out licenses, and as SWT and EMT are owned by the Department for Transport they don't need to worry.

And, of course, they can always go back to BR as they have done before.

 

Also remember that licensing arrangements are per product, not universal. Take the boom in Scotrail content we've had recently for example. That's not a single license allowing them to do whatever the want with that branding. There will be a dedicated license for Cathcart and the 314, E-D and the 385, FCL and the 170, the 380, and the 158. Anything you have to purchase separately from something else, that will have its own specific licensing deal.

A good example of this was with LIRR. MTA wanted the changes to the safety systems in order to greenlight the route, and that meant they had to alter the M7 appropriately as it was included in that product. They did not however have to alter the M3's safety system, as that is its own product and therefore has its own licensing deal from years ago.

 

Surely we're coming up to the 1 year anniversary to this thread

 

28 days, to be exact.

 

welp, guess we are all relying on JustTrains for that then. If not then its goodbye TSW and time to switch to TSC. TSW is screwed if you want modern BR stock in the 2000s. Cuz from what you said seems impossible

 

Probably due to the costs.

A 91 and Mk4 DVT would most likely cost more money to develop as it has 3 individual cabs (Sharp Blunt DVT) along with the coaches, while the 801 and most trains only have 1 cab to model.

Think it would sell well though.

 

While JT seem to be 'the BR guys' at the moment, the part of my post you were quoting was actually about the Isle of Wight and West Cornwall Local, which were both quickly backdated to represent the BR era to avoid licensing issues.

Definitely.

 

You'd have to be a fool to think otherwise.

 

I have said many times that as the evolution of trainsimulator progresses things get harder to develop and either never get produced or take an enormous amount of time. MSTS gave us route packs by the likes of Making tracks with loads of locos, units and stock. We now get short routes with one train and usually one re used train. If the timetable needs to be padded out then you need other layers. TSC was a bit like this but we saw rolling stock like the 91 produced and even one offs like the 89. Not to mention a whole world of routes and trains to run on them. TSW although with an ease of use compared to the others especially in the setup and go (no need for 42 additional items to find) it feels like the scene is stagnating around it. I looked at the WSR diesel gala fleet and thought there is the basis for a great 1970s route but instead we have trains with no character that move with the push of one handle and constant cries for more PIS and more GSMR.

 

Oh yes, I remember some of the great stuff we got for MSTS. Route packs like Severn Valley or East Lancs with loads of locos and stock. North Wales Coast or Mid East again packed with just about every conceivable type of rolling stock to be found on the route. Yes there are more technical challenges getting these into TSW, especially as we have been told the sound (though DTG struggle to get decent sounds even for modern contemporary stock) but that’s why we are prepared to pay £12 - £15 for a decent quality single add on vs. those multi packs in years gone by. I’d hand over £15 in a flash for a decent Class 50, 55 or 56 or when The Route That Cannot Be Named arrives later this year a nice Class 86 or 87. Throw in a set of Mark 2 coffins and here’s £20 for you.

 

Mid East was absolutely incredible content wise, a 50 would be great especially as they still work on the mainline now albeit on a limited basis. I fear though we will.just get 66 branded pack to 'represent' diesel and that will be 12.99 for the privilege..

 

It's an interesting discussion but is hugely swayed by the average age of the Roblox player - in Dec 23 only 18% of players were over 25. 42% of them were 12 and under.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1190869/roblox-games-users-global-distribution-age/

I've been train simming since Brighton Belle on the Dragon 32 and I'd never even considered using Roblox to do it - in fact if I didn't have two kids that were that kind of age during the past decade I doubt I would even know what Roblox is!
I think the 2 most popular railway games on that platform proves that there are young people into trains (it's not just us old duffers), and that they prefer modern ones. To take anything more from it, especially assuming that the Roblox players are a representative cross section of all gamers and simmers as a whole, is not accurate.

 

Well something needs to change.
The community is clearly divided and I don't think anyone is 100% happy

 

DTG is a business first and foremost, there to make a profit and achieve business objectives through governance and strategy. Therefore, change is only likely to happen if there is a change in revenue or senior management with different ideas or vision.

I guarantee dev is costed and who knows maybe EMU dev is more cost effective and easier. We have no idea on the cost of licences and what we think is dated may be a more than a modern image licence with more restrictions. Who knows, but transparency is key; DTG often give half a story and leave too much to rumour and conjecture which often makes matters worse.

 

As much as i agree, this won't happen as long as DTG sells enough copies. Theres no twisting around the fact that they simply dont care if you or me are interested in Trains or even feel fascinated by them. What counts for them is revenue, from a business perspective no problem. But they should stop acting like they are truly train enthusiast. Maybe Matt, but thats it.

And after TSG and JT we should now how content looks like that got the "mandatory" level of love for the product. They've taking the extra mile, something i feel DTG never did in all of those years.

Worst so, being here from the very first iteration, DTG outright lied to the community and also tried to get rid of uncomfortable discussion by trying to silently closing developments.
Even considering buying a new game (if it is true) is completely mad in my eyes if they still haven't delivered on all the things they promised with TSW4. And probably wont be anyway, given the scope of the project, they yet failed to deliver again.

Of course, nothing new. Same discussions every year, people are tired of their practices and dishonesty in some areas. Only thing that amazes me is that people still buy it. Which is okay but at this point we should all know where we will end up with TSW(5).

 

That said if you wanted to get a better idea as to the interests of young enthusiasts I think you'd get a more accurate picture from social media groups etc. with a more general focus.

 

Quite a lot turn out for 37s and 50s and the like, I don't feel that DTG take the temperature of the enthusiasts world very well. Yes modern trains will sell but just look at the interest in 507/508 units on Merseyside compared to the newer ones. Older stuff does have an appeal, it just needs presenting correctly.

 

As long as we get proper roadmaps and not one of those digital ones that are forever loading and leaving us hanging. If I’m honest I haven’t watched the last few but instead relied on a canned version from some YouTuber. They are getting too much like an online shopping channel for my liking, except they want your money soon not right now.

 

Oooh, handily Digital Foundry clipped a discussion from their latest DF Direct about making the most of Unreal Engine that I'd been hoping to see in a format that could be easily linked in discussions of the various issues the TSW games have, so I can post it here.


I'd definitely be down with buying a TSW5 on launch which followed the principles outlined in the talks referenced here and pulled off a major overhaul of the systems which are still driving issues between every version of the game.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that with regards to TSW the console platform aspect changes the content produced significantly. Before console users start thrashing their thumb sticks in anger that is not a criticism of console players. But you’ve only got to look at the other main train sim games only on pc to see that both, TS and Trainz, have a wealth of vintage content including steam. Even Simrail is going strong on retro.
So we can deduce from this that a significant proportion of console players are whizzy kids who like whizzing up and down a linear route as fast as their one handled EMU will take them. Each to their own. These players don’t seem interested in fathoming out how to drive a tap changer diesel or steam loco on their consoles, perhaps it would mean them using new control configurations or something, or maybe it’s just the average age of a console player who regards BR blue as from dusty old history and steam trains from the stone age, something for us old farts.
Thank goodness for people like JT who are prepared to buck this trend seemingly adopted by DTG who seem to be pandering more to console players than pc players with their recent releases.
Having said all that if the modern route is somewhere I enjoy because it has a connection with me, and it’s well done with not just a single unit, then I will buy it. What DTG have done with filling in all the rolling stock in their Scottish adventure is the way to go, rather than single EMU linear routes which can get boring very quickly.

 

There are some nuggets of truth in what you say. But we have to be careful not to lump all console players into one homogenous group. There are many on Xbox and PS who are older and like a wide variety of traction and routes. And there are plenty of youngsters playing on PC.

While I think there is clearly a connection between player demographics and the kind of content DTG is churning out these days, it's more complicated than simply old vs young and PC vs Console.

And let's not forget that console players are largely responsible for TSW still being around. It couldn't exist on a diet of PC players only. So let's not rekindle the old pissing contest between the two platforms. It does not lead to a good place.

 

My main reasoning is comparing the content produced for TS to that produced for TSW. Both part of the DTG franchise but with very different levels of content. What is the reason if it is not that I have theorised?
Matt has said countless times that vintage content simply does not sell as well on TSW. He said it specifically about steam and he said it about freight too. His favourite is Clinchfield RR, I too enjoy retro US freight routes, TS is deep in them, so is Trainz which has many steam routes even in places like Australia, so obviously they sell well enough in those games. So once again what can the reason be - do you have an explanation as to why TSW has gone EMU crazy?
DTG are very honest about only releasing content that sells well, so I’m struggling to find another reason why vintage train fans would lap up TS and Trainz, and now Simrail, but ignore TSW.

 

Increased development costs and the awkward licensing issues are the biggest hurdles for making train sim content nowadays. This was much easier in the RailWorks era. It has to be super efficient and profitable nowadays, to the expense of detail and features. (A fixed product of the factors route length times asset details.)

 

Most of the content in TSC, particularly the older routes and trains, has been and is currently being produced by 3rd parties. It seems that DTG wants the same thing to happen in TSW. Unfortunately, we are several light years away from having the number of 3rd parties needed to produce the kind of content for TSW that's available in TSC.

 

u meant the IET or the 91 and mk4s?

I do hope DTG or Rivet is able to make the entirety of the ScotRail fleet. We are still lacking the Class 153, 156, 318, 320, 334 and their Class 43 HSTs that are 4 and 5 car ones (And unless i am missing other trains do tell). We are very much close to finishing the scotrail fleet anyway so.

 

That won't happen, as TSC has a working editor easily allowing content sharing. TSW editor still appears to be a recruitment tool, the know-how on how to export routes into the game or setting up SimuGraph is only accessible as a contracted 3rd party, not freeware author. DTG do not want somebody else taking a share of TSW revenue without them profiting too, that was different in TSC and made it bloom, having so much content all over the world that there's no such thing as a complete route overview. (Anyone explored Indian / Russian content already? It's there.)

Haven't seen RobertSchulz for a long time, hopefully he's an official 3rd party now as his project was one of the few that went beyond the LIDAR importing and basic track laying (which is 10% of the whole work).

 

Yes, I was talking about contracted 3rd parties. At this point in time, no-one in their right mind would suggest a " workshop " type environment is possible for TSW.

 

Not talking about workshop, which again is only a small part of TSC's content. There's freeware /3rd party payware sites all around the globe. Deserves the term "World" much more.

 

Don't worry, we won't be thrashing our thumbsticks, it causes stick drift and there's nothing more annoying than trying to read the dash of a train when all the screen wants to do is drift upwards to stare at the sky.

 

Many PC players also have a console. I sometimes boot up my PS5 then am reminded of the dreadful TSW optimisation. Try LIRR Jamaica station at rush hour if you want to see a slide show. Mind you that area can even bring my PC down to thirty odd fps at times. What frustrates me on console is how little control one has over graphics settings, and how one is at the mercy of DTG’s default settings be they good or bad. Older routes work very well though I must admit. Those little white boxes are great bang for the buck but settings are a wee bit too baked in for my taste.

 

This discussion will keep going in circles until the community can agree on a few main points:

Issues with Older Versions: There are still unresolved issues and bugs in older TSW versions that need to be fixed.

Yearly "New Game" Cycle: The annual release of new games is causing more harm than good for both the game and the community. Frequent releases lead to rushed products and insufficient time to address existing issues, resulting in a declining overall quality of the game

Cost vs. Quality: Outside of a few high-quality 3rd party routes, there is no clear correlation between the cost of content and its quality.

If these concerns are not addressed, the issues raised over 110 pages of community discussion will remain unresolved, leaving everyone unhappy and further ruining our community as we continue to bicker back and forth.

What is needed is to form a unified group to outline specific, actionable changes that the developers can make to address the community's concerns.
And if the Devs don't listen; targeted boycotts or applying financial pressure could be a last resort if reason isn't heard.

 

Another steam loco/early diesel game that’s doing very well on pc is Railroader - anybody got that?
It’s such a shame we have to go elsewhere than TSW for our retro train kicks, because I like TSW.

 

Railroader is more engaging as far as switching is concerned, though it falls slightly under a different umbrella vs a normal train sim due to its company management portion of the game.

Also Railroads Online is getting a console release at some point too. Again, not a pure "Train Sim" but will be a new entry for those that want to drive trains on console.


But these only fill the role of US steam era locomotives and routes, and wont fill everyones needs.

 

Ive looked at railroader watched a few youtube videos about it parts of it i dont like the looks of it has a economic aspect got to earn money to pay for train repairs which can take days a you tube video i recently watched explained it more the guy who did it explained his discontent for that element he mentioned it was achange they made too game

 

Well, as to who wants to drive which train is very much up to personal preference. I really like driving in modern era not because I can drive a single handled EMU but because it is something that can be found still in service. So if we had route based on present day with different rolling stock types I would still enjoy it, it's just me not wanting to drive something that is in museum already irl. It's just down to what routes they want and can make into the game, there are a lot of places where there are older trains still running in service, it's just something DTG doesn't want to do.

As to linear routes, the more diverse in services are routes the more replayability there is and for that reason I find SEHS and BML (especially with class 700 timetable) really fun to play, latest CCL remaster also does really well in that matter.

I just would like to see routes that are longer not in straight line, but routes that have some branches, some unusual stock movements and most importantly diverse timetable and plenty of rolling stock. But those are the wishes we can only dream of in TSW, TSC routes are better in this regard. I find it shameful considering TSW was originally supposed to be succesor of TSC, while after those years TSC still does a lot of things better.

 

I also saw this pop up on my internet feed this week i watched the video to see but not very interested in it enough yet so far im sticking to TSC and trainz 19 and 22

 

Since ive started playing TSC 2024 i like the longer routes and routes that have branches and good scenic routes ,that have large bridges tunnels line side industries when doing freight services ..Ilike the variety of old and modern trains available I purchased the Feather River Enhanced route on the big sale i love it so far has large steel trestles tunnels ,Williams Loop where your train loops over under itself just like tehachapi loop that i also bought on sale ..

 

With regards to what was said about console players - sheesh.

I’m a console player and my favourite era is BR blue. Favourite routes are Blackpool branches, NTP and TVL. I like to drive the 37, 47, HST and 142.

I don’t think console has a significant impact on DtG’s choices on what to develop. The PS5 and Xbox Series are more than capable machines and probably average more power than the average PC which people are using to play. I do think that continuing to develop for the last generation is holding things back though.

 

I’m telling you right now, no matter how many threads, how much outrage, how many pages on a certain thread. How many long paragraphs about how it’s pointless, how much backlash.

DTG
will
Never
Change.


This is the way it is, unfortunately.