(db Expert 101 Cost)how Much Do You Think The New Expert Dlc Will Cost.

218 comp was tested today in dev and looking quite nicely, but we want to go the extra step and try to get some diesel only functionality into the cabcar, which needs a tiny bit more tinkering (and maybe working together with maik, we'll see).

 

which version will arrive on 8th? same one we saw on livestream? or this one already compatible with 218?

 

Just to unload my words here: I won't buy this DLC, as the only interwesting thing is the cab car, but it isn't worth the 36 euros ( and a sale for a TSG product is unrealistic . I also don't understand why there is no discount for those who already have the BR101 - and yes, I heard DTGs explanation: " it's a TSG product", but I don't mind from who is this DLC, in the game, you also don't see an indication for the developer!
I think they should have made an other, new loco, because this whole situation is just...I don't say it...
For me this DLC just isn't appealing because I just want to have fun with driving trains, not struggling with them

 

Wasn't the original 101 also a TSG product?

 

I believe Maik was engaged as a second party dev for the DTG product - so whilst TSG team members were involved (blurring the lines) I'm pretty certain it was a DTG product.

 

I'd like to retract my previous statement where I said that I don't mind an increased price. £30 is just taking the piss. There is no way it's actually worth that. It falls in the same ballpark as the ludicrous ATS 745, of being unacceptably expensive. The AP 142 is £30, which is far too much, but when doing a direct comparison the 142 is easily the better value product in all metrics. It's more useful (both because of the source material and the nature of TS itself), looks better, and has many more variants. The same can be said about the AP 37 - a brilliant train with an enormous amount of variations even when looking at just one of the two packs.

As a direct comparison, Virtual Railroads' BR101 packs (particularly this one) are the direct equivalent of this pack and they cost £21 each. I know that TSG have put in a lot of effort into their BR101 but the VirtualRailroads one is very good as well and can be used on more routes, plus has a few features the TSG one doesn't have. I'd like to see how well the TSG one sells, because I think DTG may have shot themselves in the foot with that price rather like ATS a few months ago.

 

You know that i made that loco too? If not, now you know. And i can say that the TSW one is way way above what the TSC one is. I can also say (because i made it) that the original TSW 101 is above the TSC one too. Just my 2 cents to that.

 

For me personally a true to life simulated loco brings a lot of value to tsw. It was about time tsw4 brings next level for hardcore simmers

In my opinion the fault simulation is a good and fun way to understand some of the railway systems / basics, especially for people without background knowledge. As far i remember there were complaints that tsw leaves the players alone in the rain with no manual and explanations.

From this aspect the devs put even a giant effort into a documentation incl. Translation. I would say this dlc is very much complete.

Some people talked about not including the fault part because they just wanna drive and not spend time in the engine room:
i guess still not all playes have realised that tsw offers 1Mio different playing styles and its fact this makes the sim popular. You can drive just as passenger if somebody is into. Or hunt medals or do whatever you like.

But do suggest DTG to get rid of the hud entirely because i drive Hudless exclusive? No, i dont!

For those dont like the fault part, they can just turn it off. How cool is that

Beside the paywall i dont have a single critic or complaint about this dlc, looking forward to the release.

 

Hey Maik Goltz cab car will release with 218 compat already or 218 compat will be included in a post release update?

 

Why People compare TSW always with games like TSC and MSFS... i dont know! Strange behaviour if you asking me.... Thats the same compare an apple or a banana.... Reason: they are both fruit.... But they forgett it has not the same: -taste -shape -colour -texture etc etc but yeah they have always the excuse "its also fruit and for a apple i paid 0,90$ and for a banana a bizar price of 0,91$....."

 

The answer is in this post.

 

I still don't think it's worth the price. Not even close - and even if the simulation is better in the TSW one (which I didn't say it wasn't, so thank you for the liberal interpretation of my post), the TS one will still offer more for players, although most of that is because of the fundamental differences between TS and TSW.

My comparison to the AP 142 still stands - when it comes to value for money, the BR101 EL doesn't fare well and should be priced at least £8 cheaper. That would put it in line with the Caledonia Works A4 which, like the AP 142, has many more variants and a lot more flexibility. Both of those are easily more compelling offers than the BR101 will be even at a 75% discount.

Eh?

The comparison really doesn't make any sense. All three of them are simulators, and TSW and TS are both train simulators made by DTG, played by many of the same people, and that represent many of the same things.

 

Well, comparing apples and oranges has started again! TSC is not at all a fair comparison with TSW...
I have now seen the entire range of Simulators pass by, but it is not really useful as a contribution.

I mean the comparison for clarity. I don't want to deprive you of responding!

 

Actually, I'm starting to miss the good old times, when Sam would have said something like...If you like it, buy it, if you don't like it, don't buy it...endless discussions, if it is this or that don't really lead to anywhere...

 

The trouble is that as a TSW DLC I do really like it. Overall it's probably the best TSW loco pack, but for a price that's just too high for what's included. I probably will get it, but when it is significantly discounted or as part of a Humble Bundle.

 

I already saw it earlier, thanks anyway

 

I don't think this DLC will be in discount any time soon after release. I guess it will take 6 months at least before it will get any discount so do not expect anything there to much

 

You haven't provided a reason for why I can't compare TS and TSW. It's not like I'm comparing TSW to Mini Metro.

 

Im one that is quite vocal when it comes to pricing about TSW content. With the EL101 i feel its a bit of a different story compared to other content.

First of all, i was not impressed by the Stream at all, credits to Lucas and Jan for trying their best but the Stream felt kinda messy at time. To be fair, its quite difficult to achieve some faults at the right time but still, could have been a bit better prepared (maybe pre record some stuff ?)

Anyway, the first thing that came to my mind after the stream was that this release already have a bitter taste. Some aspects of the EL101 will come unfinished or are in the process of being finalized. TSG isn't even fully to blame but rather DTG again for not sorting their stuff (suspension situation).
Still hard to swallow if you get told the price tag and the reasoning behind, just to get told afterwards that detail x,y,z isnt ready or finalized yet.

Also, i absolutely understood that there wont be a sale for players who already own the original 101, because its a DTG product but on the other hand it's completely fine to take DTGs work to base their own work on it and to make a profit on it. As far as i can see, the Cascade of the 101 and IC coaches are just the same as before.

Surely, this DLC is more about the inside rather the outside, the 101 with its coaches already looked really outstanding so i dont mind if they haven't changed anything there, but i found the reasoning a bit awkward.

Another thing i dont really get is why the Cab Car seems to be only available within the EL101 "bundle", what about those who would love to get their hands on the cab car, but not interested in the expert features? I could imagine some will just left it in store because they don't wanna pay that price tag, which is understandable imo. This could limit sales that are otherwise maybe even would top the loco itself, just because there is a higher demand.

That all sounds quite pessimistic, but i also think that this DLC is something that a good part of the community was lurking for, we wanted more in depth simulation its amazing to finally get this in TSW. Its clear that it went a lot of love and extra work into this. I really liked the foggy windows, quite a nice little detail. And the new Sounds, WOW!

Im just not quite fuzzed by the Idea that content that finally seems to hit the mark "escalating" in price because the other content so often is sub par and therefore it must differ. Im also not buying the "the team worked hard at the weekend" and so on. Im not a fan of getting customers into a emotional relationship to the producer. I really value the effort but for me, the customer, the end result is the only thing that matters. Created at weekends or not.

For me personally, the price tag is a bit to high to puchase day one, simply because some aspects are not implemented, or finalised. Also im quite unsure how future routes will handle the situation with two 101s and the cab car as other stated. And this is obviously laying in the Hands of DTG. Other than that, i feel like this could be another great TSG thing for TSW, lets hope it excells expectations so we maybe can have more of this sort of Locos. Because im really looking forward to get my head smoking searching for faults.

P.S. thanks for giving us a really useful Manual with this !

 

Would place it in line with noting because of its non existence then. Simple as that. It's Math.

 

Why should i do that? You dind't accept no different awnser. Your'e opinion is the true and what other people are telling dont bother you at all...

Your'e Manor to Mike is for me enough information to understand that its talking to a thick wall....

 

One is more immersive than the other, and is driven by console sales and other is a strictly PC game using an engine from 2013.

Asides the fact the names are different and there are different teams working on the each separate game.

The processes for creating content is night and day between the two.

The ONLY thing in common is Dovetail make them and some 3rd parties are still making content for both. But some have dropped TSC as well.

 

The current set price is absolutely fine with me! After all, how many times a year do I buy an expert DLC?! Maybe once a year (I hope more in future;-)). Will a difference of (let’s say) 5£ make a difference to what we will have for dinner throughout the year? The answer is no!

I am hesitant to give any reasoning for this, as I feel that, like with a lot of stuff nowadays, it’s more a believing thing for some, rather then logic. Nevertheless, I can still try…

The way I see it for me is that I as a consumer will make my choice. Is it worth it for me, or not. If it is not worth it I will not buy it. And to be honest, if a DLC costs 5£ more or less would make such a small difference in this decision making that it would probably never have an effect for me.

I do get the argument that people arguing against this higher price are also trying to keep inflation of DLCs to an acceptable level, but especially with this category of DLCs I don’t see this as a risk, as it is completely new.

I also understand those who say that the cab car should not be behind a paywall. However angry one is about this, it is the decision of the developer (be it TSG or DTG) to make, as it is their business case. You may understand this or may not, but you have to accept it and live with it. As we are free to express our opinions you are also free to express this criticism, however, accept the decision. I often feel that people seem to demand changes because they seem to believe to know better. This may only be my perception, though.

There are probably other, for some people, relevant arguments, I have not read through the whole thread and am not intending to get into lengthy arguments about this topic anyway. But I am also happy to share my view on the comparison between TSW and TSC. I have played TSC before TSW but it failed to pull me in as much as TSW did. For me TSW is by far the superior platform, simply by the immersion it gives me and the realism in terms of physics simulation. I have tried to go back to TSC as an alternative but it simply doesn’t appeal to me at all.

For me the saying „if you don’t like it don’t buy it“ is an absolute valid one! It’s a hobby and it costs money…

 

The question about a potential non-expert cab car is how it would be sold. I doubt anyone would want to put it in the work to make it if it was just going to be a free expansion for the original BR101, but a cab car being sold on its own would be hard to swallow, especially as it would require other DLC for it to work. The only time DTG have sold a cab car for TSW as a separate pack was as part of the SW1000R pack, but with that the Budd cab car was only a bonus for the main event of the DLC, and if you were buying the pack you would already have the NEC anyway.

The only way I see a non-expert cab car being made is if there was a future DTG route that included the original BR101 (it is not clear how or if DTG would use third party DLC trains in their own routes) and they wanted to include a cab car. Either that or someone in the future decides to make a Metropolitan set, which would be cool but unlikely since the coaches have been scrapped or are about to be.

So not only did you not provide a reason why TS and TSW shouldn't be compared, you then insult me afterwards... Cool.

Baked Potatoes did give a reason, albeit not a very good one:

That's very subjective.

Not really relevant - that is not a good reason to not compare the games.

To add context, TS' engine is actually from at least 2006, and possibly dates to even the late nineties, although MSTS and TS likely share very little code if any, and so saying TS is running on a nineties engine would be as ridiculous as saying TSW is running off a nineties engine because it uses Unreal. I know you didn't say that, but I thought it would be worth adding.

Ditto.

Ditto.

Ditto.

Going back to Xander, you spoke earlier about comparing apples and oranges. Ignoring the fact that apples and oranges can be compared, I don't really know why you don't approve of people comparing TS and TSW, but I'm not sure it's based on any solid reason. The two games are easy to compare - you can compare the scenery of a route, the sounds of a train, the modelling of livestock, and hundreds of other things. There are things that TS does better and TSW does better as well. I'm pretty sure you know that I prefer TS as a game, but I haven't pulled that opinion out of thin air. I've been playing TS for ten years and TSW the day after it came out on PS4, and have watched the evolution of both games. TS is definitely aging in some ways, and TSW is clearly more modern but has some gaping flaws, which is why I don't swear by it as I used two four years ago.

 

oh don't be so sensitive! you clearly have an opinion that is not correct and you keep on nagging while Mike is clear and he is the one who really knows what he is releasing. A little self-reflection would suit you. And you really know why you can't compare a game from 15/20 years ago with TSW... there is almost a generation difference in the gaming world. I am not saying that TSC is a bad game but it is just a completely different world these two games.

 

'An opinion that is not correct' is a bold statement, don't you think?

I'm not exactly sure why I should do any self-reflection. I do persist, but that's because people say things and I have things to say as well. You and Maik may disagree with me but I don't see that as a reason to shut up.

Games are very frequently compared to games that are more than 20 years old, and that hasn't been very controversial. Gran Turismo 7 was compared to Gran Turismo 4 (often unfavourably), the recent Need For Speed games to Most Wanted and Carbon (unfavourably), and recent Battlefield and Call of Duty games to the older ones (unfavourably). It is a completely normal thing to do.

 

Train Sim Classic is a game in which you can drive trains. Train Sim World is also a game in which you can drive trains. The only real difference is that TSW uses a modern engine, has a timetable mode and the ability to walk around. We have routes in TSC that look better than some routes in TSW. NEC NY-Trenton looks better in TSC than in TSW. When SEHS originally came out, the route looked better than in TSC than in TSW. Steam is a complete mess in TSW but not in TSC. Sure TSC is exclusive to PC, but that's not relevant since TSW is also playable on PC.

Both games have their strengths and weaknesses at the end of the day but comparisons can be made between the two

 

That i have try already to bring this point...

 

It's a point that I disagree with. It's not comparing apples to oranges nor is making comparisons unfair. Do they have differences? Of course but they also have similarities and there is no harm in making comparisons

 

Let me more specific in this case... Its what you already written that every route in both game have good and bad points....
And that you better not do it in a comparison due to the fact that both games point to different market. Its so that TSC is more cult/hardcore and TSW is more a newbe game with a lot of tutorials and support options in game. I have seen also TSW and FS as a equal game but thats complete nonsens!

 

Train Sim Classic also has tutorials nor do I see TSC as a more hardcore game. Just because a game is on console doesn't mean that it's aiming for the casual player only and a PC exclusive game doesn't mean it's aiming for the hardcore player only

 

No thats nonsens TSC has not a equal tutorial modus as TSW have.... Very simple TSW offers way more immersive train driving and world exploring so sorry you're point makes no sense here.
For me is discussion closed now its yes against no and for me its enough

 

I think that both games offer an decent immersive driving experience. I don't think one game is better than the other in that regard. You said tsc is more hardcore but I don't agree with that. I'm not sure why that doesn't make much sense. The routes I have in TSC have tutorials and is quite accessible as well

 

Such nonsense. Many of us, perhaps most PC players have both games and play them alternately, sometimes on the same day. The market is virtually identical. Indeed they share several routes and trains. If TSC were available on console, many more would have both games installed.

There's nothing " cult " or " hard-core " about TSC. In many ways it's a simpler game to play and edit. And TSW is not a " newbie " game; it's been around for 7 or 8 years.

Better think before you type, my friend.

 

Im a bit lost, but where did i insult you ? My post wasn't really refering to a particular post. So sorry if you misunderstood me or sorry if im messing up things here.

But i agree on the things you said about the cab car as a possible stand alone dlc.

I meant that from a business perspective, i would have imagined that it would appeal to a lot of players, so that would actually bring even more revenue for TSG. Im not seeing a paywall here, its more like that this expert loco wouldn't make much sense without it. And yes, DTG should have brought it for the original 101. Especially if you consider how overly complicated their system is.... Its way to strict and not flexible enough so implementing the cab car as stand alone wouldn't work i guess. Things that again, TSG isn't to blame here but rather the big Publisher.

 

You didn't insult me, I was responding to multiple people in the same post.

When it comes to the appeal for it, had it been a few years ago I think you'd be right but now we have the cab car, I'm not sure people would want to buy a worse version of it. I doubt there will be many more sales of the original BR101 now the new one is coming. That said, if they really wanted to produce a lower-tier cab car, I suppose they could offer a discount for the TSG version if you had both the original 101 and basic cab car. If it was priced so that it would be more expensive to buy it through that method it could be worth looking at, but this is purely hypothetical.

 

While obviously DTG will avoid giving customers anything for free, maybe there will be a manager who can count that developer time to strip the cabcar of extended features will quickly get cheaper than having to design multiple separate layers in all future routes.

 

I kinda get your point but then we already pay the equivalent amount for the game with a couple routes thrown in. I only fly the 152 so I cannot comment much on commercial airliners in MSFS but the PDMG 737-700 costs $70 for (what I would assume is) a realistic experience, and that doesn't even include the -800/-900, which both have their own pricing on the website.

I think your comparison would be more fairly aimed at the TSW4/5 game.

DTG have at least chucked in a new IC Cab Car. Even then, we still have the original less complicated version which would suffice for the majority of players. Chuck in the EP that was on TSCommunity and it's a solid train. Although it would be nice if DTG could release a simplified Cab Car for those of us who do not want to buy the Expert 101.

It's nice as well I think, it can sub in for the normal 101 and has its own services on other routes. Compare that to something like the ATS 745 which had the hair-raising price of £38(?) but only came with a few scenarios and only really had one proper route to run on, being the GEML.

The price is a bit too much for me though and Germany is not an area I have any particular interest in so I'll definitely be passing up on it lol.

 

Let me start with saying that I am a big fan of the work that TSG does, as they put a lot of effort in their projects and make quality a priority.
That is also the reason why I like to support them with releases.
BR 101 is one of my most and favourite driven DLC I bought. So naturally I was very excited to this new version, although as a more casual driver, I am not very much into the expert features. But the added details like engine room, working displays and buttons. Fantastic.
And we finally will get the cab car!
Yes, there is a BUT coming...

First of all, I am a bit disappointed the package is yet again not quite complete. No "Speisewagen" and other small things missing is a shame. Especially for the price!
And speaking about pricing...
The price (with all the reasons given) is - for me - so over-the-top there is sadly no way I buy this full price.
Every comment section on various Youtube videos is very clearly reflecting this.

In my opinion, with this kind of pricing you lose more potential customers than you gain money due to the high price.
I might be wrong, I learned this stuff in business school, the future will tell and certainly by now, TSG will have an idea, how well this DLC has sold so far.
In a sale, I will certainly buy this and I am still waiting for the 420.
And please don't take this as an attack, just my opinion that this pricing model might cost more potential sales and thus brings less money.
But without a doubt it brings far less happy customers / drivers.

 

I just want to touch on one point you raise:
1. Adding a Bistro/Restaurant coach is very much not "a small thing" . It would be almost as much work as adding the cab car. I'd love to have not only a Bistro coach but also the conductors coach (there we can talk about equal amount of work as the cab car), but this is most likely not financially justifiable.

Whether the pricing model was correct is something I can't really talk about, but if TSG makes another Expert DLC in the future it would be reasonable to conclude that the BR 101 Expert was successful. Time will tell

 

Im using only the 101 since its release, nothing else (even for freight).

I personally would look forward to a second expert line dlc, which would make the ic formation complete.

- BR 120 expert
- bistro coach
- conductor coach.

Maybe the possobility for buying as IC expert bundle of both dlcs for 60 Euros.

 

No, of course creating a Restaurant couch isn't a small thing. Maybe I didn't formulate this clear enough. It was this, plus some other small things, not saying the Restaurant coach is a small thing.
Nonetheless I expect this from a complete release.
DTG also have these coaches in their ICE trains.
And for THAT high a price, it is not acceptable that this part of the train is missing (again).
Other developers (on TSC) even create accessible toilets etc. Or open bistro desks with all the details, which sadly DTG also never do.

 

For me it comes down to personal choice. If the Bistro would have been added we would probably have had to wait even longer and would have to pay even more. Personally I am not missing the bistro one bit and would see both of my points as a drawback if it would have been added.

I agree, it would have looked nice, but I never ride in the back in TSW and concentrate on what the driver has to do. Additionally, you will not find the bistro in any IC1 nowadays anymore… sadly…

 

It's tsg, not dtg and they probably had more important things to do than to create a bistro car

 

I know that the difference between DTG and TSG.
Great argument by the way, they have more important things to do. /s
You can defend absolutely everything with this nonsense.
Oh DTG has more important things to do then make the passenger info system work on their routes, after all you only drive the trains.
It's standard to release a complete train set with the usual coaches.

 

I know right, if they included the restaurant coach, it would have made me slightly more interested into buying it. (Even though I had a bad experience on the restaurant car when I travelled on the 101 in real life 2 years ago)