Wcml South - Not Good Enough

I watched the entire preview, there were certainly noticable ups and downs.

So to start I really appreciated the hosts tonight, Daisy was particularly informative and it was really nice to see JD who was really enthusiastic and has a nice character who I'd like to see in further streams.


I was initially impressed with the Class 350, (although the petty side of me is slightly disappointed in LNWR, I'll try and live by the philosophy of LNWR will most likely be come to an end this year so I'll see this as a transition livery). So, the 350 was really nicely presented. It was surprising to see with the amount of time that's gone in to the suspension that's being used as a big selling point that it's not working. I can let it slide as it's a small error I'll give DT the benefit of the doubt on as I'm sure it will be fixed rather then abandoned. The build and sounds of the unit are very decent. I think the route certainly suits the 350 more with the length and allowing you to run full terminating services to a host of locations. The interior was really nicely done too. However, for some odd reason DT seem to be purposely avoiding the question surrounding the 350/1 only having 30x units in the subclass in a busy timetable and not creating some different subclass numbers just to save duplications. We all know it's a 350/1 but it would do no harm adding the /3 and /4 subclass numbers to bulk the timetable out.

The Class 390 was very nicely modelled, particularly the cab. The sounds are satisfactory given the circumstances. However they do need a bit of tweaking for complete perfection. I'm hoping any other minor faults will be ironed out in post release updates. I really like the demonstration of the pantograph countering the tilt on curves. Although, I've anticipated it from the start the 390 is such a superb unit, it does feel slightly short changed and quick running upto Milton Keynes. I'm not complaining though as it's a nice drive and I'd rather that then nothing at all filling it's place. And I sincerely appreciate is it's layering ability for this route and having the ability to drive it upto MK. (along with the 377/2 and 710 layers, it seems some thought has gone into not repeating the emptiness BCC or Glossop line and I encourage this effort going forward).

Now, Euston and the route in general had railway traffic, but I really didn't get the impression of a busy commuter railway that it was advertised to be, and the timetable that players have requested to know more about wasn't discussed in a great amount of detail other then allowing people to see the timetable services being scrolled through. I didn't get the feel it was as busy as it should of been. Even BML seemed to be busier and that was a TSW2 route... In the stream and even on the forums DT seem to be very cagey and reluctant to discuss the timetable in detail? Which strikes me as odd.

There were a few other small errors, but I did hear them continuously say 'this is a early build' so some of those things may be ironed out prior to release.

Hopefully DT will be less cagey and actually discuss why Euston felt so quiet at peak hour and the timetable seemed to be slightly lacking the padding it has in real life?

Still excited for the release, but there's certainly some improvements and information needed prior to its release concerning the time table and it's accuracy compared to the real life one.

 

After watching the stream, I thought the route was good, but with the same old problems, which could be due to the version shown not being the current one, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

Now the big problem I found is the number of services, there are around 600, and I found this disappointing, especially considering the Watford DC Lines services, which are every 15 minutes. Why wasn't this explained from the beginning? Why this deafening silence in explaining why there are few services?

One moment in the transmission that I found a little disconcerting was when Daisy, after finishing the job in Tring with the 350, tried to make the conductor mode, which after closing the doors and giving the signal for the driver to leave simply didn't happen.
In other words, it assumes that if you want to start another service in any mode it won't work (I could be wrong, but...)

Anyway, I give the route a score of 6 out of 10, which could be better based on what was shown today

 

It only didn't work because the tutorial prompts thing was active and she went quicker than the prompts.

 

I thought we were past the era of bare bones timetables, but I guess for whatever reason, they decided it was a good idea to cut corners here. The entirety of the Lioness Line also seems like an afterthought, from the gap in services, the poor timetable, no suspension for the 710, and most egregious of all, no stop markers for the 710, and very few Underground services. Come on. It's one of the best sections of the route and this is the treatment you're giving it? Must have been depicting a rail strike. Shame because the route itself looks fairly good minus the mentioned lighting problems, but the actual gameplay is horrid. Hopefully the German route can redeem TSW5, because I'm not sold after watching this stream.

 

Just because you don't use a feature and see certain services as "extras" doesn't mean others have the same view. The reality is DTG have set standards with past routes and are now suddenly deciding to not include things they normally have because of greed, laziness, or lack of time.

Here's a quick summarized list of everything WCMLS is lacking relative to other routes by DTG:

• Lack of improved suspension feature on class 350 (core feature promised since TSW4...)
• Lack of the semi-functional GSMR on the class 390 (has been standard for all UK locos for a while now)
• Absolutely horrendous timetable, maybe even worse than the NYT launch TT
  • Minimal class 710 services when it's literally a core part of the route (The full Watford DC line is a part of the WCMLS!)
  • 1972 stock services appear to be non-existent or very sparce, no where near the actual Bakerloo line timetable
  • Class 350 services are trimmed down from their realistic frequency
  • Timings are messed up and don't reflect the real operating timetable at all (Looks like the work of Rivet tbh)
  • No additional rail tour or RHTT services (which have become standard for UK routes since TSW3)
  • Complete lack of off world destinations for the PIS (again, another standard feature since TSW2!)
• Lack of core features from TSW3 (Third rail sparks, deep snow, neutral sections,...)
• Disappointing scenery in certain places (what happened to the standard set by GOBLIN?)
• Lack of Pendolino running sounds
• Class 350 poor door sounds
• Horrendous lighting (TSW lighting has always been bad, but this seemed especially bad)

I'm certainly missing things, but this is everything that I noticed. DTG have a lot of questions to answer to.

 

I did say that DTG need to fix what is broken in TSW4 before creating another version of TSW, creating even more content just makes even harder to fix whats broken, they have just polished a turd, kicked it out and hope nobody notices. TSW5 doesn't have a huge amount of improved or new features or the promise of them. A more detailed active map? Most games have this and don't take several generations to get to it. A new route, new trains, route hopping which is just a quick menu to another route? And will DTG fixed all TSW4 bugs? NO!

 

I think they got rid of the third rail sparks because of the class 395 Javelin on SEHS.

The cab windscreen used to flash like a strobe light whenever the third rail sparked, so DTG are probably worried about people having an epileptic seizure.

Instead of fixing the bug, DTG probably thought it was easier to remove the feature.

 

So what is the point of introducing a new feature only to remove it? DTG make no sense sometimes.

 

Pretty sure the third rail sparks could be turned off in settings precisely because of the risk for people with epilepsy. And if we’re being honest about risks for epileptic people, the horrible implementation of eye adaptation in TSW4 causing what looks like flash bangs in the cab when entering and exiting tunnels is something DTG should address.

 

Don't give DT any more ideas that'll dampen the TSW experience!

 

My initial impressions are somewhat mixed. I think the route has great potential but the TSW3 lightning still remains awfully bad. Ignoring the light baking issues already mentioned, the over exposure in the cab at the start of the stream looks just wrong:



And then there's the timetable. My impression from the stream is that without the optional 710 and 390 trains, this whole route looks rather barren.

I can't fault DTG for trying to charge extra for these trains but the available package variations are somewhat less desirable.

Rather than forcing everybody to subsidize the US route for example, I'm sure people would be equally happy to get the standard edition without the US route and instead get a extra UK or German train.

 

When DTG first announced the WCMLS: Esuton-MKC on dovetail Direct, I believed we can expect a route with a busy timetable, high level of service diversity and wonderful scenery. However, the preview stream told another story.
A horrible and empty timetable (lesser 710, 72 stock and 350 services, no railtour and RHTT service), suspension for 390 only, no GSM-R for 390, no off-route destinations for PIS (this problem shouldn't appear after TSW2), no Third rail sparks and neutral sections, terrible nightime lighting, poor scenery on BKL section, no LNWR livery and more issues and bugs didn't appear during stream. Release a route in such a bad condition is unaccpetable, especially it is one of 3 core route for TSW5. People have already concerned about TSW5's quality and canceled their pre-orders after the stream last night.
I hope that can DTG can fix some of these issues by the time of the Early Acess begins, but this is unlikely to happen, and some of these issues wouldn't get fixed until months later or never get fixed. PC players can count on mods , but what about others? They still need DTG to fix these issues. Now we can only count on German route.

 

Either DTG are blind as bats and they must really like the TSW3 lighting or simply don't know how to improve it

 

You all really need to have lower expectations for this sort of thing.

 

People are totaly pumping each other up on the forums tonight. It´s not the best route, but as other calm heads have stated, it´s not a total disaster. All the timetables look fine (I´ve checked) besides the Watford DC Line one... maybe there are still finishing that off (yes, it should be every 15 minutes at release!).
I hope they also work out the nightlighting stuff, missing overhead wires etc.
Sounds for 390 could have been bought from Armstrong Powerhouse and the debranding is a bummer! ... and yes, they could have put some special stuff in the timetable like railtours or whatever.
I will be reversing my judgement for the release and I´m keeping my Deluxe Version for Frankfurt-Fulda with Flixtrain and because the WCML is empty and utterly pointless without the 390. Let´s hope, DTG does not let us down again.

 

The night lighting is entirely down to the fact that they simply haven’t placed any light emitting assets across huge swathes of the route. That takes time and I’ll say now, with near 100% confidence, that it won’t change before release or for months after, if ever.

DTG clearly didn’t build this route. Their content has been way better than this for some period of time now.

 

Probably the most sensible comment I've read this morning. If everyone is after reality that equals real life, they need to leave their PC's and console's and go outdoors, it's the only reality that can give people what they want.....

 

I watched the stream in it's entirety and agree with most of the concerns flagged. I have requested a refund for my pre-order of the deluxe edition. I no longer feel £53.99 for this product is good value for me personally but I remain optimistic that it will reach it's potential with time. TSW4 was 40% off by November and 45% at Christmas. TSW5 could see similar discounts and by then the content may have been refined.

 

Everything I was going to mention has been said.

I switched off the stream after an hour.

Quite embarrassing and such a pity a flagship route has been rushed to point of being incomplete and inaccurate. This is meant to be bringing new players in guys, what on earth is going on?

 

Well, I wanted to get an impression by stream yesterday, because I didn't know much about the WCML and wanted to decide afterwards, but now I'm even more happy to only buy Frankfurt-Fulda after release...

 

Trying to look at this objectively through a few different lenses.....

1- build is likely a few behind. I guess it's hard to use an absolute up to date route, we don't know how many times a day it's updated and what comes in and out.

2. Pendolino I really like the look of, its shaping up to be something fun.

3. Really like the new photo mode feature and I think that will be fun.

4. I wonder what impact the leak, and more so the constant gaslighting/attention seeking with pics on here generated. Has that desire to be the forum hero(es) directly impacted what could be fed back. We've all seen the rumours of those leaks. Thank you, if those rumours are true.

5.Great that it's a free update as there's new things coming through all time. Really like the new map text.

 

Not seen the stream yet but all this negative feedback means the free TSW5 update will be popular (me for one). I'll wait for the hype to die down and the fixes and I will get WCML at a later date. I've only just bought Blackpool branches and Goblin! Plenty to enjoy there while I'm waiting.

 

Yikes, this really wasn't the best first showing.
The word "rushed" comes to mind, so I looked at the last TSW4 roadmap. July to September is 4-6 months?

 

Probably another reason why TSW5 base model is free is DTG know they are behind where they need to be with TSW5, oh hell they are still behind with TSW4, where is the suspension we were promised and I am fed up of raising support ticket for TSW4 for bugs, glitched and crashes and then DTG comes out with TSW5, but they haven't fix 4 yet? TSW5 probably won't be ready till April and even then. My advice is download and install the free version of TSW5, but don't be in any hurry in transfering your progress because we are probably gonna be getting a hot mess with TSW4 bugs and glitches.

 

With all the graphics and sound nitpicks people are making - some of which I don't think are entirely fair - I'm surprised no one noticed during the conductor mode segment that off peak tickets were deemed correct when the service was before 9am on a weekday. Is the ticket checking just going to be about date and destination?

 

Already done.

I will pick up the free update and wait for the main event, which will be the JT WCML over Shap.
I can wait quite patiently for the “new” TSW5 content to hit 50% off in a sale, wouldn’t be surprised if it’s not going for a song by Christmas.

I am actually more p….d off at the lack of meaningful core updates and the blasé attitude of DTG to the matter. How are we supposed to manage a game with getting on for 70 routes on only one save slot. Not to mention the other save game issues, lighting and everything else that is still outstanding. Oh and steam traction of course. So the core update is basically worth what we’re paying for it - nowt. A bit of fluff and a 5 in the name instead of 4.

I don’t want to see TSW or DTG fail, but they really need a complete overhaul of their thinking behind the game and how it’s developed. The Deluxe version costs (with discount) the same as Zusi 3 which has 100’s of km of route and just about every DB and DR traction unit you can want. The normal RRP of Deluxe is the same as MSFS which gives you the whole world to fly in, many locations created with intricate detail (and far better night lighting) plus numerous aircraft.

I already have more content in TSW as it stands plus TSC and all the other train games, so they need to start doing it much better if they want me to part with that much cash for mediocre content and worthless core updates.

 

My wallet doesnt say so.., from whats showed about "improved Tsw" (1 step forward 2 steps back), im happy with the 101 expert. Will see about TSW5 in one year on sale.

 

TSW5 is coming to gamepass on release day so think I will pick it up there

 

I think the main problem is not with DTG but with their paymasters (Focus Entertainment or whatever they are called). Whereas DTG had the time to properly develop, say, the Suffragette line and bring us a quality product, with a core product and an annual release model, they have been pressured into completing three new routes (and associated stock) in time for a pre-determined release date (that is purely arbitrary and does not take into account development and testing time).

This is nothing new, nor exclusive to Focus/DTG. I have worked in IT in the past (not for the last 15 years thankfully), including working on Government IT systems and this was the case then as well. Any slippage and testing goes out of the window as the release date must be adhered to.

I have to say that I don’t think that WCML is a bad route by any means but by recent standards, it could be a lot better. Maybe if it was a standalone DLC, it would have been. Let’s just hope that DTG are given the resource to fix the issues raised (apart from those out of their control such as branding) in future patches.

 

for me, these preview streams do more harm than good. why on earth would you show off a build that isn’t final, or polished to the point where the vast majority of people would say ‘wow, this looks good!’

the ambassador previews that will come in a couple of weeks time are more interesting, as they’re less biased, show a final product build and also have more flair and individuality.

Every time I heard a question answered with ‘no’ last night I started getting Fife Circle flashbacks.

 

Having seen the video and also watched a few reactions on YouTube, this is starting to look like the pained release of MML. I've little doubt that DTG will fix it in time via patches, and it will one day end up as a true flagship route, but it certainly doesn't look that now. Just compare this with JT Blackpool Branches upon release of that. I didn't rush to place a pre-order and I'm glad I waited, because my feelings currently are to take the free upgrade and sit on my hands and watch developments. Once it's brought up to the correct standard and people are happy, then I will buy.

 

I feel sorry for the devs - the release schedule would have been set by the powers that be a long time ago and the route clearly needs a bit more polish but there isn't enough time before launch. I just hope that it continues to get investment over the autumn. We know from the likes of SEHSX (the TSW4 update making the TSW3 version even better) and Midland Main Line (after it's mediocre release) that scenery, functionality and timetables can be improved to make ok routes into great ones. This route deserves to be a great one.

I hadn't planned on buying at launch - I want the Pendo but I'm not prepared to pay that premium over Standard edition atm (it's subsidising the Standard edition, for sure), and I have a back catalogue of content to play because life is far too busy. But any element of FOMO, disciplined though I am, disappeared with the stream. This route needs to cook a bit longer.

 

Very disappointed with the quality of the product offered which does not correspond to the announcements made, I invite all players to write their disappointment to Focus Sim (the owner of DTG) so that he can put things right with this developer

 

Rumours Rivet have been involved in the project does not fill me with confidence..

 

There is no need to write letters, IMO.
They have a team of community managers/supervisors/staff who are active here. I'm sure the feedback from the threads on here over the last 12 hours will be discussed within DTGs office today.

 

I wanted to buy a deluxe edition, but the Brits from DTG screwed up again *clown.jpg*

 

I’ve watched the stream, and I have to say overall I’m very disappointed. They talk about immersion and the importance of it, but the lighting is a MAJOR factor in the immersion, or lack of it currently. I’m frankly stunned that we are now in TSW5 and the lighting has not been mastered satisfactorily. It’s all very well saying you use TOD4 and how great it is, but if it’s not being utilised correctly, it’s useless. No darkening of the cab as you pass under bridges, light tunnels, AWFUL lighting in the trains.

14 days out from early access we shouldn’t be having the number of issues we saw last night. This is a long term issue with DTG though, and I had hoped Focus might have improved the Quality control. Let’s hope the other two routes are better…

 

I've slept on it, and for the first time since TSW2 I've cancelled my preorder and will just pick up the free edition for now.

There are myriad problems with the route but the two which are far and away the most pressing are the timetable and the night lighting, both of which are of the standard of a TSW2 route. Faked intermediate timings? Substantial numbers of missing services? Night lighting reminiscent of the bad old days of the pre-update Cathcart Circle? This is a flagship route for a new product - what the hell is going on?

It is totally unacceptable to have an unfinished timetable, and it is unacceptable to use simulated timings for the intermediate stop points (even if you've rounded them to the nearest 30 seconds, which is a 'trick' that Rivet have previously used on Edinburgh-Glasgow and Bernina).

It's clear that DTG's usual high standards for the timetable have been abandoned, which is all the more puzzling and disappointing for a route that will live and die on whether the timetable is up to scratch. It seems obvious, but the busiest part of the West Coast Main Line is not a route that DTG should feel they can afford to screw up.

I would be very interested to see if DTG Matt or DTG JD are willing to acknowledge these issues or if we will be stonewalled again.

 

Focus won't be that involved with TSW IMO - it was an already working/selling product. What Focus have come in to do is make use of the TSW brand in other ways - that's how they intended to make money on Dovetail above what Dovetail was already making. TSW:VR and TSW:Tycoon are the result of the Focus acquisition.

 

Catering to gamers also?

 

I am a little worried about the Frankfurt hbf station so that it is not the same as the München hbf. A large station with no rail traffic with empty platforms.

 

I don't get this people cutting the devs some slack with the "as this is an early build and it may be better on release" line. Release is just 2 weeks away! What the heck can they change in that tiny time window!

 

one of the interview streams showeded pretty well that even with just few layers enabled it's already about as busy as TSW's Munich, so with more layers there will be also way more trains running around.


at 15:10 Frankfurt main station can be viewed. Lukas also said he doesn't have all layers enabled/installed, so there is more to expect (hopefully), among others AI TGVs as could be seen in the layers list in another video

 

It's just crazy how things have turned. From the majority of people being happy and hyped after the announcements to the huge disappointment after the first real preview stream.

We're talking about one of the flagship tracks for TSW5, but it looks like TSW2 with a lot of bugs.

The track will certainly not be unplayable, not at all, but all of this doesn't look like good advertising for a brand new product.

The silence of DTG and the frequent NO as an answer in the stream somehow speak for themselves, don't they?

 

I have not even pre ordered yet. I was waiting for the livestream before I commited, I guess it wasnt the best showcase, but they have 2-3 weeks to make improvements, and they need to.

 

I haven't been on the pendalino but people were saying in the livestream the first class section was at the wrong end of the train

 

First class in intercity trains should be at the London end of the train 99% of the time.

 

Consoles cannot handle the load of a copied from the public timetable's schedule perhaps?

 

That's the PS4 version....right?
....right???

 

I wouldn’t count on them fixing it. In the early days, the poor quality of the initial build was thrown over to the Preservation Crew to sort out but that is long gone now. We have seen their attitude to fixing things from the (eventual) woeful responses from DTG in the TSW5 Unanswered Questions thread.