Wcml South - Not Good Enough

I'd also like to voice some disappointment. As soon as the stream started and we saw only 690 total timetable services I knew something was wrong. I've not seen enough to cancel my pre-order of the deluxe edition, but I feel we've immediately hit a rocky start after the initial euphoria of the reveal.

 

I get why the rumours of Rivet are here and I believe it myself, we can only speculate but nothing has been said from DTG which is scary tbh. But it does seem like a rivet nightmare, Lots of services missing (this shouldn't be happening if its the current timetable) all you have to do is go on Realtimetrains and do your research. If someone can't even do that then oh god that's bad. Rivet are embarrassing to the TSW Franchise.

 

Do bear in mind with the 690 figure that this is playable services. Avanti run 11 trains per hour out of Euston, but I am guessing that the ones that do not stop at Watford and/or Milton Keynes will not be playable, which is 7 or 8 per hour. Though they might - or hopefully will - appear as AI. 1 or 2 of the 11tph will be an 805 or 221, so they might not have been included either.

The only timetable issue really seems to be Lioness Line and possibly Bakerloo.

Regarding rail tours, it's worth considering how many are actually allowed on WCML in real life when the trains aren't on strike. It's a super busy corridor!

I'm a PS4 player so I would be happy to accept the number of services as they are (though it runs London Commuter with double that number of playable services albeit with just 2 locos). So any improvement on what was in the stream would be great.

 

DTG cannot do anything without the approval of its publisher/owner, so it is strongly recommended to take legal action with Focus, only Focus has the power to impose obligations on DTG.

 

I’ve cancelled my Pre-Order. If and that’s a BIG IF, the other Deluxe content changes my opinion, I may pre-order again.

 

Also voicing disappointment, in hopes we see change.
The route just isn't what we've come to expect and have been promised. How do we go from GOBLIN to this? No neutral sections, No fully accurate timetable, many instances of light baking issues in the preview stream and lighting problems in general, no off-map destinations, improved track shadows that were promised not working on half the route, night lighting still has a long way to go even if improvements are being made as well as many more listed in this post.

I find it worrying more than anything, its raises a lot of questions in my head about how this even happened. It's clear there was some kind of contracting going on, there are many of Rivets tropes going on with the route from the no off-map destos to the key in being a single click on the 350. Is that what we should expect going forward with flagship routes? I was under the impression there were always DTG routes in the flagship routes and I find that a bit misleading. Is this now the quality we should expect again? Why are things the way they are? Is it funding? is it time? or is it just DTG not having fully been involved in this?
Furthermore, I'm seeing many people refunding and such, rightfully so. It does worry me however if the starter pack + route bundles don't perform well we may return to a yearly buy-in. Food for thought.

Most of that is due to a lack of transparency, we don't need to know who is involved, but I don't think it would go a miss to explain why things the way they are, especially with the amount of hype and marketing around it. Something is off

 

Certainly people shouldn't be making purchasing decisions based on reading the forums some will only point out the bad things, some will gloss over them. It's best to watch the stream itself.

I don't think the route is nearly as bad as some of the comments here make out. The timetable is my biggest concern.

 

I do think the scenery is pretty good, it’s the timetable, lighting, and PIS that concerns me. These are all things that usually don’t get fixed, especially by Rivet.

 

I really want to give DTG the benefit of the doubt here. Last week a build was shown briefly at Gamescon and when they looked at the 350 timetable, it only had 85 services. Now a week later it has 200+, so progress seems to be being made on that.

 

The poor timetable is enough to justify cancellation. Matt made a big deal about how good it was to have the 710 on the route, but then they go and bugger up the timetable - which is inexcusable. It’s just laziness or the result of self-imposed deadlines that have resulted in the poor timetable. It’s not a bug, or a mistake and it’ll unlikely go unfixed.

 

Aside from the timetable, I am happy with the West Coast Mainline (although it helps that I have no knowledge of the route).

I would really like the timetable fixed as a minimum before purchasing.

 

Random bits of the overhead line wires missing (just after station passed around 2 hours 9 mins of stream). Graphical glitchy fuzzy stuff around wheels and carbon shaft (?) visible at around 2 hours 11

 

Just as well I was planning to only get the free core upgrade and then wait for sales. WCML looks like it needs to go back in the oven.

 

That fuzz always happens around moving wheels with motion blur turned on.

 

2 hours 17 - trees doing funny things with shadows and getting fuller - be better if this was rendered further in the distance.

I know, but I’m saying it’s not very impressive and aught to be fixed. It doesn’t look like a ‘blur’ as such because of the kind of jaggedy flickery part of it

 

They've only had 6 years to fix it...

Probably needs a bit more time.

 

Yes first class was at the North End

 

This close to release they shouldn’t be manically adding essential components to the route. It should be at gold, ready to sign off and publish.

It does smack of Rivet unfortunately, the 3D modelling leak being one of the clues. If that is the case then DTG really need to answer the question why they are subcontracting to a developer with a generally poor reputation in the game and, if there really was no other choice, why additional stringent QA and oversight wasn’t brought in to ensure the work was up to expected standard for TSW5?

Sorry but at times, I get the impression the TSW section is being run by a bunch of kids with little or no idea how to manage or “produce” their stuff. They look unprofessional alongside much smaller outfits such as Zusi or Run 8 who deliver quality content, constantly fixing bugs and sending out updates that actually add something worthwhile to the experience.

 

If DTG has outsourced the WCML route (in part or in whole) to Rivet, it raises some serious questions:

1. Why are they trusting a 3rd party developer, one with an abysmal quality record, to work on such an important route for TSW, a route that has seen massive demand from a large number of players?
2. Why weren’t DTG able to develop the route exclusively themselves?
3. Have they learned nothing from community feedback?

 

2 hours 34 mins, are taillights on moving AI 390s broken like headlights and taillights on stationary AI 390s at EUS seem to be?

 

This is a general problem with almost all TSW routes and can only be fixed in the engine.ini, but at the expense of performance. The popping of the detail levels of the vegetation is one of the most annoying problems since TSW1 and has still not been fixed or changed. Other games, e.g. ETS2, do this much better and even run smoothly.

 

Probably.

The GSM-R is buggered too, so expect the MOT to be a complete failure at this point.

 

It happens on ECML quite noticeably, but this one seems much worse for it

 

I just don’t think they have that many “coal face” employees anymore, working on actual routes and content. However if that means the work is being outsourced, they need to pull in their aspirations for the project. Maybe they shouldn’t have rushed to bring TSW5 out 12 months after TSW4, but focused on an ongoing quality schedule of content. As it stands, if WCML had been a standalone route, gone to Rugby, finished to a high standard and with both the 350 and 390 included, I would have paid £30 for that alone. Now as it stands, DTG get nothing from me until either, 1. JT release their route or 2. The Deluxe bundle is on sale for less than £30.

 

I've only just started watching the stream from last night, but my eyes are drawn to the track shadows. Is it just me, but aren't they still drawing in? Except now it looks even more obvious, because they're darker and wider.

I'll continue...

 

2 hours 39 - still we get pax falling through bridges, and arms sticking out side of bridges!

 

They said its not working on junction parts of the tracks, just only on straight tracks. Dont know if they ever fix this also.

 

Still drawn in based on maths according to Matt - but just drawn in further into the distance. Think he said frame rate would take a hit if it was ‘actual’ shadows

 

If Just Trains have a flawless release for WCML Preston - Carlisle (which is 90 miles long), it's going to make DTG look even worse.

"Quality over quantity" has never really been a motto for DTG though. The Dovetail flywheel just gets faster every year.

 

Same. I’ve cancelled my pre-order for what that’s worth. DTG won’t give a monkey’s though. They never do.

 

This thread makes for some disappointing reading, and most complaints seem justified.

If I thought Rivet had anything to do with WCML I would be reaching for the Refund button. I think everyone would appreciate DTG being a little more transparent about the involvement of 3rd parties in new routes.

The accuracy of the timetables should also be confirmed; in 2024 they should reflect real life services (unless gen 8).

 

It's a good thing they've been generous enough to give us two different types of defibrillator to bring him back with then!

On a post and fixed to a wall - how lucky we are.

 

Laziness is an easy word to bandy about and one I disagree with.

I'll make my own decisions based on what responses are received if any from DTG.

 

With the LOVE lighting and their visit to VT years ago, I'm wondering if this route was started back then but put on the backburner as a VT licence fell through? They've since obtained an Avanti licence and at the time a LNWR licence they decided to restart work on the route, obviously being too late to update the lighting to tod4 standards?

The route absolutely reaks of being done by Rivet too, all the evidence is there. Must admit when the rumours came out they were involved, my expectations of the route lowered immediately and justifiably so.

 

The DC Line side (with LT or whatever they are this week) was one aspect I had been looking forward to as, being fair, the 710 was one of their better more recent train creations (though I forever associate the DC with Class 501’s). But to have such a sparse timetable in unforgivable. I can only assume having a DC unit in and out of Euston every 15 minutes was playing havoc and causing lockups. Otherwise once these trains reach Camden they are essentially on their own self contained route, apart from integrating said LT services. Perhaps a 30 minute interval, while not perfect would have represented a suitable compromise?

 

Maybe I'm being naive but I'm kinda hoping that they do what Skyhook did for the MML over time, or even SEHS. I prefer to think they will and give them the benefit of the doubt. If enough people don't pre-order that may focus their minds; fix it or we'll lose a lot of sales. I was especially upset to read of the 710 getting a very light timetable.

 

I get they are doing a free starter pack that's good but to charge £100 for a special addition bundle and £60 for deluxe is appalling if the route is like that on release

 

Interesting theory, could well be and that's why it's looking sub standard.

 

Oh well, looking forward to JT's Northern section of this line even more now, this is one that will be purchased day one and they won't let us down.

 

Agreed, and if that is the case, a full timetable should at least be provided as an option for PC players.

 

As a side note, after watching the entire stream, I don't even think half of the questions in the dedicated Q&A thread were even acknowledged. Were they even reading it?

 

Looks like everyone had their pants pulled down to ankles by DTG and they all laughing at everyone who pre ordered.

Free core update is what everyone should go for.

 

Matt stated quite clearly on the stream when talking about the Bakerloo section that TOD 4 lighting was used. Is this not the case?

 

The whole Class 710 and Tube Stock Timetable Need to be reworked before Release or it’s a Big lost and the Tracks Are Ghost

 

This.

Who’s to say that they’re not incrementally adding services until it reaches the point of total collapse, and really ‘pushing’ the hardware capabilities.

90 minute gaps makes no sense in the real world or this game world.

They could be having unit allocation issues and now having to make the other subclasses / seek permissions before adding the full 4tph frequency in?

 

I've watched the stream and probably won't even get the free 'update' tbh after refunding my preorder.
I've finally gotten TSW3 looking and playing how I want it with engine.ini tweaks and reshade, and updating to TSW5 is likely to bust all that for no gain for me as I'm not getting any of the launch routes after seeing the stream.
The track shadow is still immersion breaking about 20 yards in front (requiring engine.ini fixes) and the lighting looks so strange.
It's an opportunity missed. I'll be passing on this iteration though until something grabs my attention.

 

Having watched the stream last night and reading this thread specifically there are a lot of very valid concerns being raised. DTG need to be coming up with a list of responses to the main ones sooner than later - lighting, pis screens, timetable.

It begs the question though why these live streams are being done with out of date dev builds (if it really was) and this close to release why a good quality stream build, even if it isn't a locked gold build, isn't used. On top of that, instead of then not seeming to know or just ignoring the questions, shouldn't Matt and the team presenting have a list of known issues in that build with answers that it has already been fixed or a fix is coming - then even present these as a slideshow at the end. Hey guys, we know the timetable isn't complete in this stream build, it's being completed in the next week. Instead - nothing, silence. Which comes across as it isn't getting changed. It feels like amateur hour when it looks like no one on stream has played the route (on that build) and is unaware of the issues and are relying on people in chat pointing them out and Matt says he is making notes. Like seriously! Drive the route before the stream on that build, note the issues and be ready with your answers about them. It isn't hard.

It really feels like this route needs another 4-6 weeks of work and polish before release and it's being shoved out for an arbitrary release date. Then again, this isn't just a DTG issue, it's across the board in the gaming world from AAA titles down. Who cares if the game is broke, that's the release date, give us your money and we may fix it after.

That stream alone seems to have lost DTG a ton of pre orders. I've not yet placed mine, was doing it this weekend. Now I'm considering just getting the free pack and waiting for sales. I've still loads of other content to catch up on purchasing. But I was really looking forward to this route.

 

I also thought DTG may have been quiet to allow the stream to answer the questions being asked. But they still haven't responded to any of the biggest concerns surrounding the route and are being incredibly cagey/reluctant to respond. Hopefully someone might respond later on today? I expect this sort of thing from Rivet, but for DT not to be completely open or reluctant to answer particular questions is unusual for me. I'm hoping it was certainly a 'earlier build' like we were told, or if a third party has been involved then make it clear this is where the faults are and they are looking into fixing them.

The silent treatment isn't helping at the moment though, as the questions are quite simple and there is no need to be so cagey about them.

 

This happens with every preview. Open up a thread, take 2-3 questions from it then only answer questions from the yt chat

 

I’m sincerely hoping this route gets the MML treatment given the amount of feedback on these forums.

I stand firm and won’t be cancelling my preorder, but I hope the following glitches and bugs are addressed.

• Lioness Line Timetable
• Pendolino running sounds tweaked
• PIS on Pendolino showing final destination for journey, not in game end (Milton Keynes)
• OHLE seems to be inaccurate around Watford Junction and some of it is just floating around.
  
• A potential future of the Abbey Line to St Albans
• Future DLC’s: 319, 325, 92’s, 68/88’s, 221’s
• Lighting within tunnels and under canopies
• More AI at Euston as it looked unbelievably dead in the station.
  
• Guard mode to be a key feature of the Pendolino
• Suspension to be on the 350, and guard mode tweaks such as: driver buzz responses.
  
• Missing buildings and assets around Watford, Apsley and Hemel

I’d like to see Dovetail consider the criticisms we’ve all put on these forums and hope they’ll make the effort to provide us with a fun, completed route with the correct features!