Wcml South - Not Good Enough

Upon review of the stream and this thread, most of the complaints cannot be denied. However, for me at least there is no real surprise. The route seems to be of the same standard of all except the shortest DTG-produced DLCs. Why would the light baking be any different or better than what we had before? DTG did not advertise that this route would be improved in any significant way. The only thing DTG had control of and seemingly didn't deliver on is suspension. Although I understand that WCML had potential for a massive timetable, based on what has come before there was no specific reason to believe that this time would be different. It is what I thought it was.

The one thing I would single out for criticism is the PIS. For me it's extremely immersion-breaking when all these trains have the same destination and you just know that it's wrong. Although, again, I am not surprised, one might have been forgiven for thinking that DTG would be more focussed in getting this sorted. It is one of the major complaints that keeps getting raised seemingly for every DLC and across all countries. The only good thing I suppose is that suspension and PIS are some of the few things that might get fixed at some point, although we don't get out hopes up, and certainly not for launch in any case.

 

And even then the questions they pick from the yt chat are just some of the absolute worst, these guys in yt chat are asking about 390 diesel mode.......

 

Blaming Focus is nonsensical. DTG were the exact same before they were bought.

 

Another 6 years maybe?

 

Yeah, I think live Q&A is bias to what DTG want to answer, more than answering what they should.

 

Yes, I knew this was the claim, but in this stream the "painted" shadows are not being drawn any further than the real shadows were, it appears to me, but now they look even more obvious.

Above response to my comment says they are not drawing out further on the junctions, only on straights, and maybe this is what I picked up on (I actually haven't got back to continuing the stream since I commented), but that is just as bad to me. Effectively the fix doesn't seemingly fix anything.

 

One thing that I've come to expect of DTG routes these days is the timetable being 100% accurate, but it seems even that is too much to ask. As for the off world destination issue, that is something I only expect from Rivet routes so was extremely disappointed to see it here. I'm still looking forward to the route, because I thought the 350 and 390 were excellent, its just the whole timetable/PIS problem is a big immersion killer IMO

 

Yeah I’ve gone from pretty excited and happy with TSW5 to very meh. The license issue compounds this, but just very meh, still having same discussions on lighting, timetables etc that have been going for years, very little benefit to justify a new game.

Free version and wait for some decent dlcs

 

Well, stand by for the almost inevitable "we have heard the feedback and fixes will be pushed out in a forthcoming patch" response.

I posted before the reveal that it'd be worth noticing whether any promised features were present at launch. Now it's becoming apparent that even features slated for TSW4 are not making it into TSW5..

Vote with your wallets peeps. It's the only language that is understood in a transactional relationship, as this so clearly is.

 

Now you're just setting yourself up for disappointment with that kind of optimism... Give it at least 10.

 

Jeez guys I'm 65 go easy!

 

I really can’t add much to what’s already been said, other than it’s a shame DTG seem to have sank back to this level. It’s not been this bad for a while.

It’s always been a case with TSW that features are left behind, or broken & forgotten, but for a core route to be allowed to exist in such a state is egregious. This is WCML, it’s big name, it’s a core route & by any standard it should be the king of UK content to date. It shouldn’t be falling apart at the seams.

The licensing we don’t have enough info about, so I’ll leave that alone in itself, however the 350 also has no suspension & the occlusion, particularly the cab, looks awful. 377 London Commuter awful. The 350 is literally the train that heads up the headline UK route & you’re hiding it behind other trains on your marketing & in game it’s in a sorry state.

DTG you need to do better. I cannot believe you went through the scathing you did with WCMLS on TSC, and then actually went ahead with showing what you did last night. That really says something.

 

Well the saving grace for me is that TSW 5 standard edition will be on xbox gamepass. I did finally get to watch the stream but at least I don't have to pay for this mess. I wouldn't have purchased this route.

Also for those who say that players should have lower expectations, we are not the ones setting the expectations. TSW as never been advertised as an arcade game. TSW has always been advertised as an authentic simulator. They set the expectations themselves so it shouldn't be suprising that people have high expectations especially given how expensive TSW addons are. Now I don't expect everything to be 100% true to life, but basic things like lighting, distant scenery, timetable and sounds should not be this bad for a game that has been out for 7 years. Advertised features like suspension shouldn't be missing when DTG said that all new trains moving forward would have suspension. It's just unacceptable. Also given that this will be releasing in two weeks, I don't expect this route to get the major improvements that it needs before release.

Also why do DTG allow Rivet who have a terrible reputation of making poor quality addons allowed to work on this route. It's pretty obvious that they did even if DTG want to remain silent about it.

Unfortunately this is a common issue with the video game industry with products that are rushed to release with bugs and have incompetent features. Developers don't want to make bad products but they are constantly forced to rush the work they do to meet self imposed deadlines by executives who are only concerned with immediate earnings. It's so unfortunate that this keeps happening.

I wanna say I'm suprised, but honestly I am not. I'm just glad I don't have to pay for TSW 5 but it just feels like DTG never learn from their mistakes when you think they have. Hopefully the San Bernardino Line won't be a poor quality route but I'm not going to hold my breath

 

Well there's a bit of dtg bashing going on here.

Not seen the stream and don't plan on seeing it.
Y'all know what to expect from the tod4 lighting, it's not that great!

With 3 weeks to go till launch you can't really say what you have seen is the finished product.

I have some concerns about the timetable if what I'm reading is correct. I will see for myself at launch.

Maybe Y'all expectations are a little high, this is dtg after all. I'm not bashing them but you know what to expect by now.

 

Well with DTG, what you see is what you get given their past. I wouldn't expect much improvements to come until after release. Also DTG are the ones that set the expectations. If they don't want players to have "high" expectations, they should stop advertising this game as an authentic simulator or at the very least, set realistic expectations. They often times make things sound better than they actually are. Not to mention that DTG have gone above and beyond in the past with some routes so why shouldn't expect players DTG to be consistent?

 

[QUOTE="ididntdoit, post: 887007, member: 44707"

I have some concerns about the timetable if what I'm reading is correct. I will see for myself at launch.

Maybe Y'all expectations are a little high, this is dtg after all. I'm not bashing them but you know what to expect by now.[/QUOTE]

DTG can do better and have done better in the past. That's why there are so many disappointed people here.

Expectations are not too high as DTG have delivered before. Look at a TSW2 route call Brighton Main Line. With the full timetable it knocks the socks off what was shown last night.

This is either rushed, made by a third party or a bit of both and DTG need to come out with more of the famous transparency that was being pushed around since the end of the Sam days.

 

It's even worse given the fact the new suspension was one of the big new features for TSW4, lauded by them in the launch stream. Never arrived. Now we're on TSW5 and they're saying, we have it sorted now and all trains going forwards will have it – and still no sign of it.

I'm laughing. I'm crying (not really). It's TSW4 all over again.

But the core is free. Oh well, then, forgive and forget. Everything's good. La-di-da.

 

Perhaps they're having a day off after yesterdays successful stream! 2pm now and nothing about all the issues. After all the positivity post Direct and the Roadmaps, DTG staff were very very quick to answer and comment on these forums. There are a lot of valid concerns raised and really needs a bullet list of answers sooner than later.

Here is a simple questions. Why on the Pendos is 1st Class at the wrong end of the train. Isn't that basic research? Will it be fixed before release, sometime in the future or never?

 

Just watched the stream ... IMHO it looks pretty good on the whole. I don't have the 710 yet, so the emptyish timetable doesn't bother me so much.

The comments about the lighting rang some loud alarm bells, but from what I can see in the video it's not *too* bad. I was expecting another night time black hole like Birmingham, but it looks a lot better than that!

Still pretty pumped to drive this route, though I probably won't bother with the pre-order and just buy it if/when it's been patched and feels more finished. I was bitten by the day 1 version of MML, so feeling a bit more cautious this time round

 

Okay, I've resumed the stream and I can see it's the junction sections where the "shadows" still draw in. The straights look fine.

Can the junctions be resolved in a patch?

EDIT: To be fair, Matt just commented on this in the stream, so I'll try to shut up now until I've watched the whole thing

 

You are probably right.

 

Just from what I been told and seen.
The stream yesterday apparently was an early build that has since been updated. Apparently 390 Door PIS actually does work but just in another build so assuming the departure boards should display correct destinations such as Birmingham New Street, Glasgow Central, Edinburgh, Manchester Piccadilly etc instead of Milton Keynes where we as players can't go further. So my question why on earth are we being shown early build products if that is the case?

 

The timetable thing is the most troubling for me - there is no reason for this route not to have the full compliment of services, particularly on Gen 9.

 

The irony here doesn't escape those of us who have gone through the saga that is New York- Trenton.
What should have been a standout, flagship route launched half - baked with a dreadfully cut down timetable, awful signalling and a plethora of scenic deficits, some of which persist to this day.

Initially, DTG refused point blank to improve the timetable so you WCML fans should be prepared for that. Under pressure from players, they eventually backed down and tasked Joethefish with fixing it, which he did admirably. But the freight layer was taken out which seriously devalued the route for many of us.

The route still needs fixing, in particular the signalling which we hope Brandon will eventually be hired to bring up to snuff.

So, UK fans are experiencing the same disappointment with WCMLS as US fans feel with NYT. We feel your pain.

Whether it's time, budget, too much outsourcing, lacking personnel with the right skills or poor QA, things are unlikely to improve with the current management team.

I'll take the free core update and wait for JTs route and hope that the MBTA route surprises me.

 

The fact they have done 90 miles, that is incredible. So it shows these longer routes are doable.

 

If it was such an early build, how were they able to remove the "last minute" change in license agreement branding from the 350 and station signs before the stream.

I'm sorry, but I'm calling out the early build claim because I don't buy it.

 

Once again, DTG’s silence is deafening. Busy brushing all the negative feedback under the nearest rug.

 

There is a reason why the 350 doesn’t have the new suspension but DTG I believe are looking into it

 

It seems alot of people who viewed the WCML stream ( I watched for 1 minute as I was busy) thought it was total Roblox.

 

Matt said something in the stream about them discovering problems with the 350 and them not wanting it to bounce off the track. Suggests that they're still tweaking the physics behind all the suspension behaviour.. also suggests that perhaps they didn't develop the 350 and it's a 3rd party thing that they're still discovering the properties of...

 

So when people say they've cancelled preorder, does that just mean it'll be a day or two longer before playing it with everyone else

 

Yes they encountered some problems with it. Those complaining about it would have been a lot more vociferous if they shipped it with broken suspension.

I am sure it will be fixed.

 

You said what I was thinking. Although I am not, and I don't think you are, enjoying and schadenfreude over this, the parallels with NYT are obvious. Of course, the major difference is that British players have many more other routes plus third parties to fall back on, or look forward to.

Not to get too far off topic but there is really a lot of pressure on the MBTA route. With Joe and Brandon both working on it there is a lot of potential, but then again if the route still doesn't impress, what more can be done? That preview stream will be an event, for sure.

 

I think they absorb all the feedback (not only from this thread), think about it over the weekend and on monday they bring us some statement about realistic possibilities to improve imperfections. They still have plenty of time to do so.

 

The Same Feedback as they have about all the Blurry Textures on Xbox Series X and PS5, but Never fixed This for us Players

 

Sometimes dtg deliver sometimes they don't. Take it with a pinch of salt!

I'll be playing 5 days early and more than likely be enjoying a change of scenery.

 

This has been bugging me too. Either the positioning of the TSW5 routes and locos in the 4-6 months category in July's roadmap was an outright mistruth (whether deliberate lie or making people think there wasn't a September release coming), or the plan was for TSW5 to release later in the year but for whatever reason was brought forward. I'd like to know which.

 

Nah. In the software world there's this thing called "optimism" that gets in the way of real life. Can't remember how many projects I've been on over the years where we all confidently sit in the kick-off meeting and say "yeah, should be pretty straightforward... beta within a couple of months, release a month or so later...", only to end up on another death march to get something out the door when we "promised"...

There's this other thing about not wanting to be seen as a naysayer... if you don't have a "can do" attitude you end up at the bottom of the pile when it comes to pay rises or bonuses.

Then there's this other other thing called "management", who tell you when the thing's going out the door whether you like it or not ...

 

They probably copy/pasted the suspension over from a different train, then were surprised that it didn't work as expected.

Everything DTG touches is rushed and botched due to "time constraints" so whenever they can cut corners, they will.

 

It's a train sim for 40 quid.
As expected.

 

My main complaint with most TSW routes is the trackside. There is a lack of lineside infrastructure, cable trunking, drains etc.
Sometimes it looks like your driving through a park instead of along a railway line.
Jetwash, the guy who does the superb mods for TSW has an excellent video on his youtube channel. A side by side comparison
of the Just Trains Midland Main Line in TSC vs TSW. The Just Trains TSC route looks more like a real railway, the TSW one appears
to use some stock assets instead of modelling the real thing. In some cases there are things missing that exist in real life.
I would love to view a side by side comparison of the WCML South London to Birmingham in TSC vs this TSW route that only goes
to Milton Keynes.
A lot of the issues noticed in the TSW WCML route stream will be solved by the modding community, they should not have too, it should be released when it's in a fit state. I feel sorry for Console users as the mods are PC only.

 

Just picked-up Age of Wonders 4 and Civilization VI with my TSW5 refund.

Should be good for a couple of months.

 

The lighting in Euston is appalling with over-exposure in some places and some coaches seemingly in invisible tunnels. Have DTG not yet realised that night-time in cities is brighter than night-time in the countryside. That night-time screen-shot from just outside Euston looks darker than Norfolk farmland.

I should warn you that LIRR had the same really obvious problem at Jamaica and they still haven't been fixed 6 months after release and after a number of "updates" to it.

If Rivet have been doing most of the work on this route, what have the UK TSW team been up to? They certainly haven't been helping the TSC team as that franchise hasn't had an in-house release for 3-4 years.

 

It is like DTG are afraid to announce Rivet had some part in doing this if that is the case ofc.
I really hope it ain't tho

 

DTG are using the hear no evil, see no evil policy, which is fine because come September they won't get paid, see how much they ignore things then.

 

TSW5 will be working fine when TSW7 comes out, but I can't confirm that.

 

No, it is last years train simulator for £40.

 

River didn’t build the route. They simply don’t have the capacity. They were working on Fife into April.

However DTG cannot deny that they have had a hand in developing this route. There’s all the hallmarks of their involvement. Especially the timetable where there a large percentage of services are missing and there are no off map destinations (both standard for Rivet).

At this point I’m cancelling the pre order. Sorry but we pay a premium for this product and anything Rivet are involved with is not worth a premium price.

I’m sure DTG will fix it down the road. But as of right now that preview last night was not worth £60. Nope.

 

Enjoying is such a strong word