Wcml South - Not Good Enough

Fired up TSC and enjoyed the plethora of ai traffic everywhere. It's looking better every minute (wow what an improvement with RW Enhancer 2!). I shall be awaiting events in TSW5 and only buying when/if it's improved. If it isn't I shall be paying what the route is actually worth based on that stream, in a sale.

 

WCML South is actually now quite a decent route in TSC. It could have done with a few more scenarios, particularly for the 390 but I do believe the DC Line is also fully driveable. Oh and if I'm feeling expansive, I can put a Bossman Royal Scot on front of a rake of ex LMS P3 coaches (with restaurant car) and do a nice little steam run down there too.

 

Don't forget Workshop scenarios. Not.Silent has made a lot for WCMLS.

 

Development is an on-going process. Just because you see one thing on screen doesn't mean that others haven't already continued to work on it.

 

I genuinely feel sorry for Alex having to put his name to that statement of nothingness that sounds like some exec has just asked chatGPT to give him a few sentences to post.

Deffo not pre-ordering this (yet). Will see what feedback in like after the 12th from early access players then make a decision, otherwise free upgrade and seeing what comes up in the next Playstation sale. Hopefully GWR is on there again and I can pick that up ready for the remaster.

 

No mention on Alex’s post about suspension on the 390. Is this coming day one or has it been ignored?

 

That is coming day one, and was demonstrated on the stream.

 

Right. A bigger build is built from smaller builds from different teams, and there are multiple builds being uploaded throughout the day. They can easily remove the logos from one part of a build they are using for the stream (for whatever reason).

 

Likely because they weren't allowed to use the branding in the stream. Unbranding doesn't require a lot of dev time.

 

I see no reason to preorder or purchase TSW5 anytime soon given the state of the flagship UK route and since the core game is now free. Frankfurt Fulda will probably be a good route, but still not worth the full price of the bundle. The TSW4 bundle went on sale for $8 in the recent Steam summer sale. TSW5 deluxe will probably be 80% off in next years sale and hopefully by then WCMLS has been improved.

 

For PC users I can guarantee that WCMLS will be improved by the community within weeks of release. It's the only thing that might stop me from getting a refund. I'm sleeping on it.

 

DTG could turn this back around if they directly acknowledge some of the issues raised rather then put out a diplomatic post that's quite vague. I'm happy they've directly acknowledged 'feed back' from the community, but I'd prefer if they directly acknowledged the key issues that were raised before and after the preview. I presume most people would be like me and not expect a long statement or explanation, just brief explanation and reassurance about the key issues raised, and why they haven't been commented even though they were raised at an early stage. Believe me, it might just be the saving grace for the launch of TSW5 to go smoothly...

 

With respect, these are the same platitudes we are always given. We deserve better than that.

 

That was exactly my point.

 

Exactly, a reply that would make a politician proud, skating around the subjects with ease.

 

The "for whatever reason" part was in reference to why they used an older build if other bits have already been improved (not a criticism, because it happens; I know that for "reasons" a gameplay trailer of a big game right now includes broken things that were already fixed before the trailer was done).

 

I don’t normally comment in these type of threads but as someone who was going to preorder, despite hoping against all odds the flagship route would be c2c, this is disappointing.
To avoid posting too much I am baffled that these issues continually happen and there is no one at DTG seemingly raising the flag.

As an example the 710 timetable. Everyone is expecting a 15 minute timetable. Anything less is wrong and will draw criticism. So either the team need to do everything in their power to make that happen, or if it’s not possible be upfront and explain why. Otherwise it just generates bad PR. I don’t want to knock DTG as I love what they produce and it’s given me loads of fun which I’m grateful for. However these issues were so easily foreseen and expectations could have been managed better to avoid the drama.

 

I'm with you. I was pleased that there was a busy London electric route and pre-ordered even though I said I wouldn't if it was another flippin London Midland Region route. C2C then the GEML are top of my wishlist.

Though C2C, better known as The London, Tilbury & Southend Line or "LTS" back in the day, was actually an LMS line despite being mostly in Essex. The Suffergette Line was used to allow transfer between the "LTS" and the rest of the LMS network. So maybe C2C's LMR origins mean it's got a better chance of being in TSW at some point.

It's the hope that kills you.

 

Thank you. I missed that. There has been a lot to take in.

 

No, players do flag issues with TSW, they flag them all the time, DTG choose to ignore them. Several players have called out DTG on how they operate including myself, I posted that DTG need to fix all the problems with TSW4 before they make another TSW, several players insisted they wanted new content. Oh okay, well there is the new content, DTG haven't being taken to task in regards to what they produce, if you keep letting DTG get away with it they will keep doing it. I would much rather prefer 5 good working well detailed routes than 10 poor quality ones with issues. What is happening now is DTG are launching TSW not ready or not ready, they expect players to buy it and they might get around to fixing some of it in 6 months time maybe? How about we wait 6 months for them to fix TSW then give them the money if they fix all the problems?

 

Vote with your wallets!
Pavlovian conditioning means that DTG will only improve if they don't get paid

 

Me scrolling through this thread after actually quite enjoying the stream and understanding that it’s still WIP:

On a serious note, I’m quite looking forward to doing some runs with the 313 on the Watford DC Line, even if the route’s set in the wrong time frame.

 

sorry I meant DTG staff should flag issues and be that guiding voice. Perhaps they are. Who knows.

 

Exactly!!!

 

This whole situation is a really interesting one.

So the branding of the train (or lack of) is disappointing, but there's nothing we can do about it, and from the outside looking in it seems like the issue there is with LNWR, and not DTG in fairness. I'd obviously like to know the specifics of why this occured.

i always say a route lives and dies by it's timetable mode offering, so seeing a significant lack of expected London Overground and London Underground services is without doubt hugely disappointing, but something i do hope DTG take note of and look to fix and implement post-release. No idea if that will actually happen and there's been no official acknowledgement of timetable concerns, so it is something that is an issue.

I personally feel very lucky these issues didn't occur last year, as the UK flagship route then (ECML) was my number one requested route and section, it is a route i live on, and i know i would have been so let down if these issues occured then. Seeing a less than expected timetable and un-branded Azuma's would have been beyond frustrating and a huge, huge disappointment to me.. so for those who always wanted the WCML South or live on this route i can totally understand the feelings.

I guess i'm lucky that the WCML doesn't hold that same place in my life and in my heart as ECML.. as all i'm really looking for in this years UK offering is a busy, engaging timetable, so my own personal expectations are somewhat tempered compared to last year.

so while the stream did raise more questions than answers, i'm willing to give TSW5 the benefit of the doubt and hope that when i do get my hands on the WCML South, that i enjoy it and the timetable makes the route feel alive.. although i do know if it was the other way round and ECML had this many issues and concerns, it'd be a totally different story, so i'm lucky in that respect.

definitely hope the London Overground timetable (and London Underground timetable) is addressed as a priority, especially as the Lioness line is marketed as a big part of this route.. even the 'little things' as the Overground platform Stop Markers missing just doesn't sit right, there is definitely room for improvement but i remain cautiously optimistic

 

Problem is there are many out there who will pay full price for mediocrity and will probably cover DTG's sales target, so they'll just laugh all the way to the bank.

Me personally, if I order something and get a half arsed product in return then they will receive a half arsed payment in return or a no thanks, I won't be bothering with that shoddy output

 

They need more to it importantly the electric Freight stock class 92/90 electric multiple unit 325

 

Incredible.

 

Ew

 

With a service pattern of every 15 minutes there will be 3 or 4 710s somewhere on the Southbound route at any one time. Add on the 15 minutes it takes for the Pendolino to do the journey and another service will have started so you should see 4 or 5 southbound 710s, you should also overtake 2 or 3 Northbound services.

 

Yeah, there will always be people who will buy TSW regardless and they will warrant their purchase every which way including how they are helping the future of TSW. However, what they are actually doing is damaging TSW by letting a company away with producing a half baked version train sim, even with the promise from DTG that they will fixed it in 6 months, in 6 months there will be some reason as to why they can't fufil their promise and then we will have TSW6 with more hype again and even more problems because DTG still haven't fixed bug and glitches that run through the TSW series.

 

btw, fuzzy wheels is a direct result of motion blur being on. load up tsw, turn off motion blur in the settings and come back to me with the result

 

Thanks fellow, I will give a go

 

I had this on my DTG Preview card - BINGO!

 

No worry’s. I had that issue till about a month ago and saw that.

 

Thats pretty amusing looking at that time table. It seems they only have 3 701's in service for the entire day going back and forth. As the three jouneys Watford to Euston line up with the Euston to Watford times.

And there were 2 units parked at Willisden Junction on the stream. Why aren't they in service.

Anyway I'm sure there are more than 5 units in real life on the line and really it shouldn't be hard to timetable more on the DC line. So you basically need 8 units to operate and maybe a couple of backups parked. And even the 1972 Stock if you were to have only 4 tph each way(I know its probably more in reality) that is still only 16 units running on the DC line back and forth all day. Surely the signaling can handle that at minimum.

I have no problem with the 350 and 390 timetables.

But that is what I would expect for any timetable, and it shouldn't be hard maybe time consuming with testing but if you can't get 16 trains running back and forth in a 1 hour timeframe on a dedicated line you need to really work on your timetable skills.

 

This route was very obviously built by Rivet. It would go a long way to helping TSW5’s launch if DTG acknowledged that fact. DTG’s content from TSW4 onwards has been very good, why are they taking this reputational hit on Rivet’s behalf?

We’ve been here so many times before that a vague statement put out at quarter to five on a Friday using words like ‘if’ doesn’t really cut the mustard anymore. This game has been around so long at this point that this sort of thing should simply not be happening any more. We should be sat here all excited for the new release, that contains all the standard features we’ve come to expect but with more polish, and some new ones to boot. Instead, we get a bucketful of the very worse aspects of TSW and then one of the promised and already delayed features, and Matt’s glib dismissal of its absence from the launch, highlights again that something is very wrong with the way the production side of this game is managed.

It was only on the Dovetail Direct stream that they said “we brought suspension improvements to some TSW4 locos, we can confirm that will be a standard feature in all TSW5 locos moving forward”. At the very first time of asking it’s missing again, to be added at some undetermined point in the future.

Finally, if history has taught us anything at all, the build you saw in that stream is the release build. There may be the odd tweak here or there but I would bet good money on that being it. I can only hope that post release DTG take this route out of Rivet’s hands and really, properly fix it. They did it with the TSC version (which was an absolute bloody mess on release) and made that in to a very good route. Thing is, they need to be more upfront here. You need to acknowledge the problems and commit to fixing them. I haven’t put the pre-order in yet (although I fully intended to), what happens between now and the 12th will determine whether or not I do, because the state that route is in right now is not acceptable. I can’t help but feel an acknowledgment of that fact on the stream would have been a good move too, because we can all see it, and the streamers not even mentioning it makes it look either like they’re clueless or deliberately glossing over the very big elephant sat in the corner of an unlit yard.

 

I think you'll find that people buy DLC because they enjoy the content and enjoy driving virtual trains. That is the reason I purchase it.

 

If I remember from watching the stream. I also did notice hourly gaps on the Euston to Birmingham New Street services via Northampton. In real life the services are meant to be half-hourly all day with some additional peak services running to Northampton. It isn't only the 710, it's pretty much widespread to other services.

 

Well having cancelled my Deluxe preorder, the only thing that might persuade me to reinstate it or at least go for the Standard edition, is if the German and American route come across better in the stream. Though I would like the green Vectron and new coaches. If anything, I’m more pee’d off by the lack of meaningful core updates which these expensive content packs are paying for. They know quite nicely what’s wrong with the game and what we want to see, but instead we get tar like enhanced photo mode, or route hopping.

The TSW side of DTG paints a picture of a company that is struggling to deliver its objectives. They don’t seem to have much programming skill (or items like save slots would have been sorted ages ago), or people capable of producing content - hence outsourcing to the likes of Rivet. Although it’s not something I want to see, I do hope this isn’t the start of the thing foundering.

 

Watching back there were 4 car 350s too.

There is only ONE 4 car diagram into Euston 2N32. Couples to an 8 car 2K60 at Euston to form 2N71 which is 12.

So apart from 2 services everything is 8 car.

 

I will always buy content because I want it, no other reason, have zero loyalty to any games developers or companies, but can't deny that I get a fuzzy warm happy feeling knowing that I'm royally annoying the angry bunch of keyboard bashers that have to be angry at everything, because they don't get what they feel they should........

 

I don't know what reporting number it was but last Wednesday I was on a four car 350 from New Street to Euston. I do agree there were too many four car units in the stream. Have they only modelled one sub class and not have enough to go round I wonder?

 

You’re not annoying me.

If you’re happy with mediocre when you know DTG can do better, then all credit to you.

 

I can’t imagine you’re annoying anyone, but if it makes you feel better to think you are then more power to you.

We all have different standards. Mine are set based on the best of what we’ve seen from this game. Sadly this level is not hit at all consistently and therein lies the problem. North of £50 for WCMLS in that state is not something I’m all that comfortable with.

 

Note I said diagrams. Everything is min 8 car. Unfortunate failures occur and we run short formed.

 

My standard is if I enjoy it, really couldn't careless about anything else, fully respect everyone else will have different standards, but will completely ignore everyone else at the same time, mob mentality is something I've never followed and will always walk my own path with things like this......

 

Erm…great, I guess?

 

Can someone summarise what is wrong with this route? I'm not from the UK so for me the disappointing stuff I saw in the stream is probably the usual stuff. Huge stations that look like a ghost town and the few passengers in the station are relying on self service. I also did not see one suffragette train whilst driving. Suspension missing on TSW 5 trains at launch. Did I Miss something? I read also something about gantries in the wrong place but I would never notice. Are there other things non-locals should notice?

 

For starters, there's the missing timetabled services those in particular on the 350 and the 710 services. The latter if goes ahead will have a 90 minute gap rather than the real life 15 minute service. As well to the 350s, reports of hourly gaps on the Euston to Birmingham via Northampton services rather than again the real half hourly timetable.

Poor lightings within stations as well in tunnels. Me watching the stream had to gasp as how they didn't even comment on the poor lighting within tunnels as if they are hoping no one notices? I remember in the Kassel Warzburg stream, the second they noticed a bug light within the tunnel, it was reported straight away. (Happy to be corrected here)

Aannnnndd there's more, people were reporting missing or incorrect overhead wiring with many I saw funny enough sticking out and extending rather than connecting the wires like a plug. Can't find the word to describe it tbh.

This is DTG were are dealing with, for myself I do really feel for the route builders and kind of for Matt and Alex etc, it seems they were pressured on meeting the deadline for TSW5 rather than given more time to get the route top notch. For to be one of the most requested routes to only be left half-baked is really worrying. If DTG somehow managed to fix everything by the release date, they'll be a miracle itself. If not I do fear this will turn into another New York Trenton 2.0 but on a much larger scale especially when dealing with UK customers.

DTG won't comment on anything apart from the generic statement Alex has posted saying 'oh, were listing to your feedback and we'll see what we can do'. This will happen for at least a year and will back down eventually or funny enough release new content hoping people will forget the mess of the WCML until maybe they do a NYT improvement with still a half baked timetable and leaving it in a state.

I'm very understanding DTG are a business themselves who needs to make a living, but this practice is very unsustainable on quantity Vs quality. The good days from TSW2 are long gone, from multiple community streams allowing open communication between players and the developers. I wonder what's changed with? They're also the ones who removed route codes from roadmaps as if we can't guess the route anymore.