Wcml South - Not Good Enough

Honestly feel bad for the community managers caught up in this mess. They are only the messengers in this situation, and are only trying to help.

 

DadRail for me is pretty critical when it warrants. What happened to LazerJet? Sure he was an ambassador but haven't seen him doing videos for them recently.

 

DTG have seen the complaints and have acknowledged them. I think expecting a more in-depth reply two working days later is probably a false expectation.

Personally I will exercise patience and see what happens over the next week.

I also agree that you often get a different perspective on some of the ambassador streams. The DTG ones can be a bit chaotic some times, although I didn't feel this one was particularly.

 

I agree here, they're in a very difficult situation having to effectively be the bridge between the company and the customers.

 

I always get the feeling there are too many community managers at the moment. I liked it when DTG Protagonist was running the forums.

 

DTG Protagonist was definitely a no nonsense community manager, he really got the answers out there and cared a lot about the community (not saying the current ones are awful, they are amazing)

such a shame DTG Protagonist left, really liked him

 

Sam is too busy being the colonel of the Fail Brigade, living his best life away from this chaos.........

 

Totally agree with you. All the necessary criticism is there and out in the open now. I'm willing to give DTG time and am confident the feedback will be reasonably productive in fixes.

I think the next step as mentioned is to watch the ambassador streams and see what builds they are given in comparison to the one in DTGs preview.

 

Im happy the night are finally darker than in spg. But nightlighting involves the placing of light sources. Very well done in the rush hour route riesa - dresden, which has dark nights too but well lighted areas. No other route caught this in the same detail ever again!

So the excuse (again) is there was just not enough time? Clearly..., the route is not even released and players are already annoyed.

 

That's not entirely true. I thought Lee (CGD games) conducted his expert loco preview incredibly well....even going as far as to say that if he hadn't gotten it for free then he wouldn't have purchased it because it was overpriced for what it was. More of a 'great to be an ambassador but not the end of the world if I'm not' approach than a 'protect my ambassador status at all costs' attitude that some streamers (especially those with lower subscription counts and high volumes of TSW content) adopt, so if that's not 'for the people' then I really don't know what is!

I don't particularly like ambassadors either (I feel they generally cause more harm towards the consumer than good) but in saying that, there are still unbiased/negative opinions from them out there so even I would consider it a little too harsh to tar them all with the same brush.

 

Yeah, I will just sit in the corner on my PS5 and cry. TSW 4 on console is a joke, I can't see TSW 5 being any different, the number has changed is about as much.

 

Everybody is awaiting or expecting a reply from DTG on this matter. DTG are listening and rest assured they will respond. The response will be better put together than TSW itself, what we actually need at this point is action not lip service, we get plenty of lip service.

 

1,2,3,5,7,8,9,10 and 14.
Quite the strike rate DTG..

Why're you failing at customer service solutions (Top Mistakes) (znetlive.com)

 

I think you are right which is sad, we're just client reference numbers.

 

It’s crazy how rivet Fife circle is so bad and with the enhancement pack and fawx’s timetable it becomes one of the most enjoyable routes to play. If modders with less resources and experience than actual devs can produce that quality of work then what is DTGs excuse?

 

They're a business. Time = money.

But there's only so far they can go with that excuse before it starts to wear thin.

 

One of the biggest gripes in here are the missing services (which may appear yet!), but people are wanting more timetables creating for other routes - which would require more dev time and beta testing.
No doubt they will update Birmingham & Manchester at some point - hopefully when either some new stock yet is announced, or some reskinned existing stock - as we have 142, 150, 158, 170 and 800/801 all in game , but lets enjoy the WCML with the 390 first and see what happens in the future.

 

If you look closely you'll find the budget limitations leading to rushed work everywhere. Not just Rivet.

DTG - Antelope Valley

These "neighbourhoods on a plate" prefabs are just...


Compared to the looks and detail of DTG's 70 miles Miami - West Palm Beach (2014) for TSC, you can only come to the conclusion that development costs for a train sim must have risen immensely. Stuff that was possible ten years ago isn't economically viable any more.




That route is just an example of a level of detail that still holds up to my needs, and a reason why TSW is not an upgraded TSC. In fact - TSW is often less detailed, in the hope that UE's lighting will do the magic. And remember the rendering engine and dev tools were self developed by Kuju, not licensed IP like Unreal.

 

Some TSC routes definitely age well. And compete with some of TSWs best sometimes

 

Wow, that is good, how old is that?

 

That has just gone on my Wishlist!
Absolutely stunning.

 

I definitely agree with that, the routes from the last few years in TSC have been outstanding, and there is always so much detail and ai traffic too..

 

Loving this forum. everyone is so mature and brutally honest! Constructive Feedback and Criticism we are giving. We ain't being Ass*oles at all.
We are giving this feedback and that because we love this game so much. When you love a game so much and the Devs start lowering standards is when it gets disheartening as their is no other game like this on Console or PC (exclude TSC) that gives us this much immersion!
We just want the best, DLC's and TSW games released without stupid amount of bugs, but when it is constant bugs and also shortcuts that we can surely see is just disgusting, as I keep saying 5th series of TSW should be aiming much more higher not lower.
Want to say again, really happy getting WCML south with 390 and 350. I understand why to MK but at the same time very disappointed with it only being 50 miles. It is actually 49.65 miles. (sorry had to point it out)
It should of been to Rugby tbh but New Street I feel like it is doable, you see JT doing 100 miles route why can't DTG.
I would of accepted Rugby I be honest, 30/40 min run with a 390 just is annoying.
I just god hope the preview stream was an early build. Otherwise, well basically TSW 4 release all over again, having to wait ages for patches and that.
Suspension
So with suspension, I would of rather if DTG apologise and just explain that some suspensions for trains have been very difficult to do with the physics and therefore having to delay it, rather than giving fake promises or false deadlines. Us as a Community deserve that communication.
Route size
Now I did see someone mention route size that those who ask for shorter routes, get shorter routes. But me myself and others who ask for longer routes. Nope we don't get that do we?
I find it absolutely pathetic that this is the case. WCML Euston to New Street would of had everyone hopping out their seats. In my honest opinion we really should of got that. 5th series why not! MIND BLOW THE COMMUNITY. But no, we have to have a 50 mile commuter route. Honestly, It is so annoying that us players who love the game and want to play a route you can sit on all day such as EUS-BNS, but we can't.

 

I think this is one of the best posts i've read on here.

 

great post!
you wrote all my thoughts in 1 little article

 

Just for those saying night lighting in this game always looks rubbish, I’d implore you to drive a night service in Maintalbahn and using GodMode set the volumetric fog to about 0.003 or 0.004 and about 25% on the cloud slider. This is how the game should look at night all the time, every time.

The service I just tested was the RB 88 (23300) Miltenberg to Aschaffenburg starting at 04:38 on 27th September. I chose this as it transitions from night to dawn light throughout the service, if you don’t wish it to do this run it in October or November instead.

This is a perfect illustration of my point about consistency. It can’t be acceptable that on the one hand a route can look like this, but then for the TSW5 launch we get a route that looks like the worst example of lighting the game has ever seen.

 

I cannot and do not want to use Just trains as a comparison for DTG routes. I don't even expect DTG to deliver exactly the same quality. DLCs from DTG doesn't have to be of the same quality as Just Trains. Just Trains has built a route so far and they had plenty of time to do it and could take care of every single object until the route was finished. DTG can't afford such time intensive work, I understand that very well. If the game received routes at the same interval as the Just Trains tracks, the whole game would already be dead.

As a player, I simply expect that there is at least a consistent quality. First comes a route from DTG that's okay, while the next route after that looks like they've forgotten everything they've already done in other DLC. Unfortunately, it doesn't always help to just add new rolling stock and say that's why players are buying it all. In my opinion, the quality of the routes has to be right first. I've never played Goblin, but according to player feedback it was a pretty good route visually. Unfortunately, you can't see any of that in the WCML.

I wanted to give DTG and TSW5 a chance and had pre-ordered the deluxe version, but after the new route dropped I unfortunately had to request a refund. To date, TSW5 is unfortunately dead for me.

 

I have decided not to buy TSW5 but instead take the free core update. I love the WCML South but I want to wait and see if DTG can improve the obvious faults I and many others saw on the stream. My biggest gripe is the timetable for the LO 710 , the devs do not seem to have responded to this criticism which makes me believe that the fast turnaround of these services is actually being relegated to a paltry train every 90 minutes. The regular sight of the Overground services when driving other trains on this line is part of the real experience. Relegating Overground services to to a bit part is not right.
The silence from DTG on the many criticisms is deafening. It seems that they have made a huge error subcontracting this flagship route out to an untrustworthy company, though I cannot be certain of that. I have not even addressed the poor lighting especially at night which knocks for 6 the nighttime timetable and the vanishing act of 350 8 car units. The Pendo's lack of track I could live with if everything else was right. I shall buy in the future either when they fix these significant problems or when it falls to a price I that I consider I'm not overpaying.
I'm not interested in the other routes as I primarily drive UK routes and US freight in the game. Perhaps in future sales.

 

I think it’s time for the community to take a stand. Maybe use the free core update but don’t buy the main game or routes until there’s a significant upgrade in quality.

It’s the only way. People need to stop worrying that by holding back they will kill the game - that definitely won’t happen, but it will make the money men sit up.

 

DTG are always watching the forums and I say they have realised that the player base is not happy with TSW 4, so they have decided to give us what Matt pretty much called an updated and they admitted they need to repackage it as a new game to get new players. Second reason for the free update is there are no large improvements in the TSW 5 (TSW 4.1) that would warrant charging for it, if DTG charged they would just annoy the already annoyed players. There are rumours flying around on here that DTG subcontracted the route out to another developer, do we have actual proof? If DTG did, what have they being up to or has previous commitments /DLCs caused this?

 

That's where I'm at - I'm grateful for the free update, but I can't be doing with the fact that the lighting is still so inconsistent and the suspension has been handled so poorly. I work in software development - there's absolutely no way we'd do a show and tell showing features that had been outstanding for a year, and a week later, go back to (some of) those stakeholders saying, "oh yeah, wasn't ready after all" and not have any other comms about it - as a Head of Delivery, I'd be getting a right going over.

Base update plus the JT route in the future will be fine for me I think.

 

I don't think the "community" will do that. I don't even see a reason for me to do so far. I personally don't see the big fuzz with WMCL. But I do get why people from the UK are upset. They know the route, know how busy it is. That's why I want a route in my backyard so I can complain about everything that is wrong with it whilst UK players would call it the best route ever made in TSW and I would comment that it would be so much better if this and that was done this or that way.

This doesn't look like NYC Trenton in the preview. That route I even could spot the mistakes when first shown. WMCL just looks like I would a UK route to look like because of the lack of knowledge of the route. I guess for non UK players there is not much reason to take a stand at the moment

 

That’s not even remotely the case. The issues are largely nothing to do with it being a UK route.

 

I don't think it is fair to compare JT and DTG. JT's routes are wonderful but they obviously can take much more time over their route.

If DTG made one or two routes a year it would be just as good and they would be bankrupt!

 

Think about that statement for a second.

If that’s the case (and I don’t think it is, which is my opinion) then dare I say DTG’s costs are too high, probably because they have too many people not actually contributing to making computer games. If JT, a small and very niche studio, is able to make quality content and make a profit at the same time where DTG can’t as producer, then by definition there is something very wrong with DTG’s business model. Remember that as producer, DTG will also take a cut of JT and every other 3rd parties income. I don’t believe this is actually an issue anyway. On the whole DTG’s content is generally much better now than it has been, problems with the core aside. I don’t think DTG really have a massive quality problem. There is, however, one 3rd party studio that is falling short and dragging the game down. Ultimately that is the issue here.

A lot of things get said on this forum that are passed off as fact with absolutely no proof at all to back it up. Where is the evidence to say that if DTG were to produce less, higher quality content they would go bankrupt?

 

Mate don't be getting your hopes up on the US route, cars and traffic are awful as is usually the scenery on those routes. Imagine flying past dozens of ropey looking cars with no shadows and poor road markings? Complete immersion breaker.

 

By definition if you can make the PC version desirable to play from the vanilla (because it was absolutely horrific without your lighting) and you are doing it as a hobby, a development studio should easily be able to fulfil it.

 

I thought about it long enough thank you.

DTG produce far more content than JT as they need to appeal to a wider audience and of course they are have a much larger wage bill!

If anyone reads any posts on here as anything more than an opinion then that is their problem, unless a statement is made backing something up or staying something as a fact.

 

There you go again. You make that as a statement of fact when it’s simply an opinion.

 

I would say that is the problem - DTG make too much content way to fast. They seriously need to slow down and concentrate more on quality. When they did do a short route, the 13 miles of the LO Suffragette Line they smashed it out of the park, which shows if they apply themselves they can build good routes. But somebody involved, I don't know if it's the higher ups at DTG or Focus, forced them to turf DLC out like some fast factory production line regardless of cutting corners. This results in lots of money coming in quickly from them, but ever increasing disgruntlement of the player base, which has reached a crescendo with WCML. It's not good enough to charge 10 quid more than TSC for a generally shorter route with less rolling stock on it, both drivable and ai. Something needs to change because a lot of us are going to change our buying habits I think. We want quality over quantity.

 

They've reduced the London Overground 15 minute service to one every 90 minutes. They've waved their magic wand and turned all LNWR 350 services in to just 4 car units, they've turned off the lights in London and the suburbs at night, surely you don't have to live in the UK to see that this is unacceptable? I mean the LO one is glaringly obvious as it's a metro type line, those don't run every 90 minutes!

 

Well if you look at the amount of DLC the two produce what conclusion do you come to?

DTG have routes from several different countries, JT have made routes for one country.

Why do you suspect DTG don't have a higher wage bill, I've seen figures of over 100 employees quoted, how many do you think JT have?

You are just being contrary now and frankly there is no point trying to have a discussion on these lines.

 

Maybe they do. But their content has been a lot better for the last couple of years. Routes like Rosenheim, Semmeringbahn and content like the 380 are very good.

 

The conclusion I come to is that DTG churn out too many routes, too fast, and that their quality suffers because of it.

 

Well that is likely true and is an obvious conclusion to come to.

 

San Bernardino is not on my watchlist. I don't have any hopes it will be up my ally. Frankfurt is what I'm looking forward the most. I'm also not going to base my impressions on those of the German player base as they will react the same as the UK player base does on UK routes.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying everyone is wrong and WMCL is the best route I ever seen. I just don't have the knowledge about the route that would highlight all the shortcomings with that route.

 

I will get TSW5 on game pass then download the 390 separately hopefully the WCML is in a better condition than the preview stream

 

The problem is the yearly releases, Matt says each route is 25-30 devs working for 4 months. For TSW3 DTG themselves made the 3 core routes plus 6 route add-ons throughout the year. For TSW4 they again made 3 core routes, although only 5 route add-ons - I suspect the LIRR problems are the only reason there weren't 6 as San Bernadino was probably meant for TSW4 and then MBTA Commuter as the TSW5 core route, which would explain why MBTA is near release but not in time for TSW5's launch.

So overall they have the staff levels to make 3 routes every 4 months.

The problem with the annual release is there is very little wiggle room in there, the only way for a dev team to spend longer on a route is to only deliver 2 routes in a year instead of 3. That is quite a drop in income for DTG, so instead they do whatever they can within their set 4 month window, even if it means quality falls short.

 

Just my five cents: Over the last two years, at least the people here on the forum who bought the Rush Hour Package, should now know: Do not buy any DTG product in advance. Think about it: When were we really satisfied with the product from launch? I can't think of one.
Besides that. I wasn't sold on WCML from the start because of its length. Guys, the want to sell an extra high speed train with it and the route doesn't even give it a chance to strech its legs. Btw: The reason of its length was its complex London part. That would have been the result with ECML if it started in London. But both routes, in my opinion are because of that unattractive.
And unfortunately we still have no option to link routes, so we will get more short routes until that is solved (if ever).
My hopes are on the german routes, but again: I get the Upgrade and wait until I think the route is worthy my money.

 

Ok guys. There are some gaps in the timetable. The 90-minute gap in the 710 timetable stands out. Has anyone ever seriously looked into why this gap exists at all? I mean, if someone wants to write a book the old-fashioned way by hand, will they just turn blank pages at some point and say the book is finished at the end? My Book has 350 pages but only 270 are filled with text. What are the readers supposed to think?

What I'm getting at is, imagine you're creating this timetable right now. Why would you have a gap of 90 minutes in there? Just like that? Was it laziness? Did they think no one will notice this? Did you just finish work and forget where you left off the next day? How can something so obvious happen? You create 17 identical trains every 15 minutes, but on the 18th train you create a gap of 90 minutes. I just don't understand that. Maybe there really is a good reason for it, but I haven't found it yet.