Wcml South - Not Good Enough

Absolutely.

 

I liked how someone asked if the route goes to Clapham Junction. That would have been cool to be honest and would give us something new to do with the Class 377 and LO.
It says something about questions from the stream... I think they are not to be adressing stuff from the forum. That would explain why none of the concerns here have been adressed.
I think the big problem here is, that DTG always underwhelms players... DTG used to be good at delivering more than expected in the past with TSC routes. Just like others have said: the route to Birmingham in TSC or even stuff like the Leipzig extension in TSC including the S-Bahn City tunnel.
I really think DTG need to start doing this with TSW.... take some more time, heck, even make the route more expensive and take it to Rugby (including Northampton Loop) and maybe even to to Clapham Junction. Same goes for Frankfurt-Fulda. It´s a solid announcement, but looking closer it´s also the bare minimum. No S-Bahn tunnels, no diverging route via Frankfurt-Ost, no Frankfurt Airport.
Why can´t they suprise players and create some "wow" effect? At least with the flagships routes? I guess someone from DTG might answer: "it´s too much work, we can´t do it". Well, that´s back to old question we have discussed in the past: why even start a new franchise, that seems to be so complicated, that most devolpers struggle to build long routes or proper networks with it?

 

Again players still can't get their head around the idea that an individual is not the company, they may act as its representative, but that's it. Alex & Matt seem to be a really nice, but they are not your personal friend, they are just an employee working for DTG as nice as they are. They will not take offence if you complaining about TSW, it is just a job, pays the bills or not.

 

Definitely seems like the TSW business model is treading towards the TSC model where they let third parties handle the ultra-realistic routes and trains while they just pump out average to below average DLC along with a new "game" every year. I would like to see the timetable overhauled on WCMLS though. The community complained about New York-Trenton long enough that DTG eventually gave in and contracted Joe to do a proper realistic timetable. This was despite DTG saying there were no plans to change the timetable in the months after initial release. So persistency can pay off. The overwhelmingly negative review rating on Steam probably also helped.

I wouldn’t be surprised if TSW5 sales go down compared to TSW4 because the core update is free now. I guess DTG think getting all past TSW players on the new platform is going to improve future DLC sales? Personally, I'll probably pickup the deluxe bundle when it inevitably is 80% off in next years Steam summer sale like every other TSW core bundle has been.

 

I knew well from Alex's statement when he used the word "if" in the something might be done before launch sentence, nothing was going to be done, told everybody on here. So, basically in true DTG fashion, the new version of TSW will arrive this autumn a hot mess as it did last year and still is. AND PLAYERS ARE EXPECTED TO BUY IT...WHY? I AM CONFUSED?

 

All I can say is congratulations to DTG / Rivet / whoever was involved in throwing together this route.
You've managed to take all the hype and praise from the UK playerbase that came from the Direct and completely turn it upside down. May God help you if the other routes turn out similarly.

 

Likely wouldn't work on the older consoles that have a reduced timetable anyway but shouldn't be a problem for current gen.

 

Desperation, boredom, half baked timetables.

CHOOSE YOUR BUNDLE!

 

DTG are the same company that did TSC so why would TSW be different. The WCML South for TSC came out with some big issues. Deja vu anyone?

 

Probably because the old franchise couldn't be put on consoles.

 

Aligning with the DTG model for a moment, consider the following..

Lighting upgrade DLC
Timetable enhancement DLC
Better Bushes DLC
Passenger Announcements DLC
Better Tunnels DLC
Reverb Enhancements DLC
Better Audio DLC

Edit-
Better Cars DLC
Better Shadows DLC

Etc etc
The funny thing is, I'd probably buy a few of those..

 

Poor route building = rivet games? Dtg also have routes where they have poor route building.

 

But here's the issue for me, it shouldn't be a post release update any more than the Suspension update coming after release, the PIS is standard now, has been for a while. That it's still being missed is LOVE.

 

My advice, save your money and wait until the updates are out, it took almost a year for Suspension to be added to TSW4 stock.

 

Regarding pis, how come dtg can't put the actual destination, yet a mod for bml has Thameslink services showing Luton etc...

 

Oh Decisions...Decisions, spoilt for choice which do I choose???

 

If you actually analyse the routes recently, the majority in TSW are formulaic. usually single in length, with one new loco and usually inheriting or bundled with previous locos. It's all done to minimise the outlay.

Look at Semmeringbahn and Rosenheim/Salzburg, in essence nearly identical in formula, its just one has a mountainous pass, but they are both roughly the same length (68vs89km) have one new loco and both use rehashed stock from earlier routes.

What's happened to branching? It's either a long, slightly boring route or a very short commuter one. Lirr was probably the most interesting but is not very consumer friendly with its constant stop start safety measures.

 

People here constantly gloss over this, just take a look at London-Brighton!

 

Because they're incapable of showing even a micron of respect to the community.

 

This does not inspire much confidence tbh.
After much hesitation, I pre-ordered the deluxe edition a couple of days ago, with the hope things would be improved before release.
If this is not the case, I'm cancelling my pre-order until the notoriously flimsy promise of "post launch improvements" actually comes to fruition.

Delay the game and sort yourselves out. Come back when the half-arsed Rivet route is actually up to DTG standards.

 

Yes, there is a trend developing here, can you guess what it is? The new norm now is for DTG is to deliver TSW in sub par state and BECAUSE PLAYERS KEEP pre ordered the game, DTG will keep doing it, simple.

 

With no disrespect to Alex or JD the response is really still quite inadequate. They know quite nicely where the issues and concerns lie, in fact they walked in with eyes open by giving a green light to releasing in that state.

Sorry to be cynical but really just more PR "mindspeak" to try and contain those who might be wavering about cancelling the preorder or not bothering with it.

 

A simple yes/no question for the DTG team (Matt would be best as the Exec Producer putting his name to this, but also JD or Alex, given they speak on behalf of DTG as a whole):

Do you think WCML is in a fit state ready for release?

 

The carefully well worded response from DTG delivered by Alex, JD, John or Mary or whoever (again representatives of the company DTG NOT an individuals) This statement probably took DTG several inhouse meetings to arrive at what they came back with and it basically states they have no answer to the problems this side of launch, if DTG made a space shuttle would you get on it? They assume they could pedal their unfinished producted, bull their way through the TSW player base as they always seem to and get away with it as they do every year, but well done to everyone who spotted the problems. Now the shoe is on the other foot, rather than us blindly handing over our money to find out DTG what a mess TSW is in and then we have to wait months for THEM to fix it. NOW WE CAN HOLD ON TO OUR MONEY AND MAKE DTG WAIT TILL THE GAME IS PATCHED... AND THAT ARRANGEMENT THEY WON'T LIKE!!!!

 

I think you already know the answer to that.

 

My interpretation of the fact it's not in the FAQ is that it's one of the things they're currently looking at. The OG services are after all one of the selling points of the route; to put in a half-baked timetable would not be a commercially sound idea.

 

I hope so, it is the main reason I wanted wcml.

 

I think DTG can see if they make false statements or false promises regarding the WCML it will backfire so badly their reputation will be as bad as Rivets and I'm sure, that secretly, behind closed doors they do not want that badge either. As I've said it's not ideal to have noticable errors in a game that no one has even set hands on yet, but I'm hoping next week's statement will be reassuring and I'm willing to give DTG the benefit of the doubt at the moment, as for me personally I've never really felt let down by their products in the past. (I speak for myself but I think the suspension improvements were well intended but they didn't anticipate how tricky it would be to master and made a promise they lived to regret). The only exceptions I've felt deflated with DTGs products is with them creating routes that have so much potential but lack the AI necessary to bring it to life, such as Glossop or Birmingham Cross City...

They've read the vast amount of completely valid criticism and errors in this thread, and its begining to sound like a broken record now, so for me I'm going sit back and see what next week brings and go from there. It sounds like a statement specific to the criticism will be made. So for now I'm on the fence until I see what that brings.

 

More 350s DLC
More London Overground services DLC

 

I know that I'm probably in the minority as I am used to the cost of flight simulator add-ons but I would 100% spend the same amount for the deluxe pre-order for just the WCML if the WCML was that long and obviously included all the 350 variants.

 

Exactly, when DTG gave the convenient excuse for not putting a 700 timetable on BML they used the "it'll crash and blow up", yet not long after we go a very busy 700 timetable by a modder and it runs as smooth as a baby's bottom. So treat excuses with caution, what they probably mean to say is "it'll cost us too much time and money". Treat what they say as politician speak.

 

I have to wonder if even Gen 9 consoles are holding things back with their RAM situation, Gen 8 for sure is and should've been dropped by now, they were underpowered in 2013 and its just ridiculous that DTG are insistent on supporting them in 2024. Most PC gamers have at least 16GB of system RAM and 8GB of VRAM, The Series X and PS5 after their OSs are taken into account have around 12-13.5GB of total RAM to work with.

 

Jesus, stop giving them ideas, they're bad enough

 

Treat what DTG say as a politician? You mean they lie [Removed insult - DTGHarry]

 

Yep Rockstar stopped last gen consoles for GTA 5 but DTG won't do that they said they will continue to support last gen which is ridiculous

 

The only thing culled from the Gen 8 timetable is freight services, there is no way with double the RAM that Gen 9 can't handle a full timetable. Besides the minimum spec for TSW is 8GB of RAM and 2GB of VRAM, sure it won't look pretty, but that's considerably less RAM than Gen 9.

The reality is timetables in TSW take a lot of work, adding more and more trains in and then resolving issues as they crop up, I suspect they added stuff in until they hit some dispatcher issues relating to the 'choke point' outside Euston station, and rather than put in the time to make it work they just stopped adding in the rest of the services.

Sadly DTGs definition of 'good enough' is a considerably lower benchmark than that of their customers.

 

Money talks, even gen 8 money.

 

I’ve just had a look back at part of the WCML preview stream and it’s interesting that at 44:40, Matt says that there is “quite” an extensive timetable for the 710. It remains to be seen what that actually means.

 

When DTG drops 8th gen consoles you will see a lof of PC gamers on here complain because their systems won't be supported anymore as well.

 

That's evolution, in TSC world where everything is heavily modified on my install there is no way I could run it on my PC 10 years ago, despite it basically being a updated version of the same core game.

 

Yes I agree, I don't think we will see much at all if before release but I am sure they will improve the route after. They have done so in the past, I remember the anger over the fencing and ballast on SEHS.

They clearly know what the feeling of the forums is and they won't ignore it and aren't ignoring it.

 

I built my current pc for the demands of specific games back when..
I'll build my next pc pretty soon to meet the requirements of 1 specific title, but with some others in mind. TSWx will easily fall into its capabilities because at no point will it become next gen dependant, the only caveat being specific hardware efficiencies.
Upgrading hardware is just a part of life for dedicated gamers or simmers.

 

Sure but I first need to see a TSW version that matches my expectations of a true PS5 console game. Why would a PC version be held back by consoles? There is no law that says you can't build a higher end version for PC. On console we are used to see the same games perform way better on PC because of an optimised version for PC.

 

My series x runs fine with a full timetable

 

Going to the questions of F & Q.

Bla, Bla, Bla, Bla, Bla, Bla nonsense. To make this even bizarre, most of the questions there were asked in the stream funny enough. I generally feel for Matt, Alex and possibly JD as well, I wouldn't think it's in their nature to let us down being they're doing the best they could, but someone clearly higher than them wants this to happen regardless.

 

I guess all we can do now is wait until next week. We've made our points abundantly clear.

 

I think all of the questions that Alex addressed were from chat field in the WCML Stream video.

I saw no reference to the valid points being made in this made in this thread.

As if by pure coincidence I had a Blu-ray arrive this morning that I picked up about the WCML and the 390 from the drivers eye. I compared it with the Stream and the first thing I will say is that Euston, once off the platform and it's surrounding building are a lot dirtier and a lot darker than seen in the DTG version. Even in day light, the video was set on a sunny day with light cloud at 12.30pm. DTG's WCML, It is too bright during the day, and way too dark at night, you would think London has no street lighting and what it does have are stark crisp spot lamps. A couple of the guys commenting from Train Sim Community commented here about the lighting. There needs to be some hidden flares in the scenery with softer light. The sky should not be black, light pollution is everywhere in London.

The stations on route are not right. I will check again.

 

I've long thought and sometimes said that it would be nice to see a pc only version that really let rip with the possibilities..

 

One every hour instead of 90 minutes?

 

Yeah I'd agree. The TSW5 launch trailer was really nice, very professionally done. Whoever is responsible for that is a DTG asset. It must be frustrating and not a little disheartening to see that effort and excellent work undone by a very poor follow up reveal for the WCML route.
Accountability where its due, likewise credit.