I think my issue with this whole debacle is that we know it can be done better. By DTG and even to some degree by Rivet. Like TSW4 was a fairly solid addition and we got some decent routes albeit smaller ones but goblin was of generally good quality and we know that when they try they can put together a phenomenal timetable. I'm not sure if it was time limits or outsourcing to other developers but it's clear something has gone really wrong somewhere. But this constructive criticism has been given so much over the last iterations of the game and it feels like the gap between the community and the developers is getting far too wide. Genuine constructive criticism is being met with defensive statements and construed as personal attacks? Like come on. We know you can make a phenomenal piece of content. We know in TSW that it's possible to make phenomenal content (TSG, JT) and more importantly we know it's possible to fix a bad piece of content with the Support and feedback of the community (MML and the wonderful work of Adam and the rest of their team). Also Edit: Community team I think you do a great job with the absolute car crash you guys have been thrown in too and I appreciate it's a tough job with all of the pressure from above so thankyou!
I just wonder if the pulling off the branding happened after demoing route to a license holders... Or it is totally unrelated
After giving it all some thought, i really just have one question for DTG: Why? Why is this the best that can be offered? Why aren't any improvements planned? Why is this route missing so many key services, when last years flagship UK route was practically a 1:1 representation and completely full of life? i'm not being sarcastic or facetious, i genuinely want to know why this timetable is the way it is. Is this a sign of things to come, because i was genuinely looking forward to the Cardiff City Network, but given that this latest WCML south offering has such a reduced timetable, then maybe this is the way things are going to be from DTG going forward. So when it comes to the WCML timetable offering, knowing this is the 'final' timetable as stated by DTG themselves, I really do want to know: why are we missing so much of the timetable on such a hugely anticipated and busy UK route?
What’s also quite funny with this current bad feeling about the route is that no one has actually played it yet . I know quite a few issues have been pointed out from the preview , but until we actually play it we don’t know for sure . However , it does surprise me that DTG didn’t make this route purely themselves , given that it has been so highly requested . You would think this would have have been the one route they would not want to risk getting wrong.
We must not forget that the most disappointed of all is Focus Entertainment, which is a serious company that has to answer to investors. It is very likely that Focus will take things in hand (from a human, technical and marketing point of view) because a profitable franchise in the long term needs quality and standardized finished products.
To be fair, Rivet have done some good things working with DTG. Unfortunately, route building ain’t one of them.
This gap is also existing between my wallet and the "buy now" button on my steam basket, thats for sure! They hyped the uk route in a good way, but all those downsides discussed about the new wcml, are discussed past years in this forum. And the ones were follollowing the topics here in that time know, dtg ignored big pieces of the feedback. - the thing with the incomplete and bare timetables had its debacle already on peak forest and ny-trenton. So its time to repeat this on a uk flagship route? - especially when a route is outsourced to a 2nd party dev, quality control has to happen. I changed to a strict "nobuy" because i can see an overhyped spirit to rush products out in an unfinished state, instead of doimg them properly. Im ok with that, but going to buy at 80% sale which is fair. Also because the new german route layers in an old version of the timber wagon roos-t, while there is an updated version since tsw 3, just unbelievable..
After the last debacle with the TSW4 launch, I think the mindset of players need to change to ensure they get the best experience from their TSW is to wait at least 6 months otherwise they are nothing more than paying beta testers. A lot of players including myself have tried to advice or guide players not to buy an unfinished product and after going through the list DTG posted yesterday. There is not a hope in hell all that is wrong with wcml is going to get fixed in one patch, this is going to take several patches and as there is usually a good period of time between each patch you can easily be talking after Christmas and beyond (Easter). I would love for DTG to make a liar out of me, but you know I am right. Also bear in mind this is a product DTG says is ready and they are launching come what may. I know a lot fewer players will be buying TSW this time around and DTG have only themselves to blame for that. I do not know what is going on in DTG, maybe it would help to understand the reasoning as to why this keeps happening? ___________________________________________ Dear Paying Beta Tester, Thank you for sacrificing your time and money, I know you won't get to enjoy much of ecml as you will be too busy reporting bugs, remember the guard mode tends to crash as well, probably along with the rest of the game. Remember we are with you in spirit as there is no multiplayer Many thanks
I’ve slept on it, and my money is still firmly staying in my wallet. The response from DTG was lukewarm and the use of drone footage was pretty ridiculous to try and defend the indefensible when it comes to night lighting. Everyone needs to remember Rivet are intrinsically linked to DTG, being that some of the leaders in that gang are ex-DTG employees. The link is always going to be there. I’m afraid to say I have zero sympathy with DTG when it comes to backlash around this route. They’ve totally brought it upon themselves and let’s hope it’s fixed asap.
Cancelling my TSW5 preorder is turning-out to be the best gaming decision I've made all year. Think I'm going to stay firmly with 1980s routes from now on, so long as Just Trains is creating them.
Not sure what their involvement is with some of the Swiss routes in TSC. I was playing Surselva yesterday evening and it looks gorgeous. But the Ge4/4 loco seems to suffer from the same snatchy, almost instant acceleration when you notch up the speed setter/throttle. That’s a classic one from the Rivet motive power in TSW, too. Out of curiosity, I’m wondering who built the WCMLS train sets - the 350 and 390. Was that Rivet or done in house by DTG themselves?
Well I have to say that's a good chunk of condescending word vomit, don't get me wrong fully respect your opinions on the game and company behind it, but trying to frame you and the those of the same opinion as some sort of hero trying to save everyone is so patheticly cringe worthy I'm struggling to breathe as I'm howling with laughter at it. God I love humanity it's truly amazing and insane at the same time
This modern fad of multi million pound businesses hiding their failures beyond their "employees feelings" needs to end. By being coerced into withholding legitimate criticism you're not "being kind", you're letting yourselves be emotionally manipulated while businesses, who don't care one iota about you beyond the contents of your wallet, laugh all the way to the bank. Buying goods is a transaction, NOT a relationship - despite every game's social forum and "community" trying to pretend otherwise.
This, 100%. Worth quoting in full. I am unhappy that some DLC is released incomplete or with bad traction sounds or lame timetables. And when something is released in a suboptimal condition, then yes, call it out, ask for better. Let's see what is released first shall we? Whenever DLC is released DTG open a thread for "Feedback" and at that point the stage is all yours. Just keep it to facts rather than attacks, yeah?
This is really off topic about WCML. But I will answer it; you are over-reacting, this has nothing to do with unions more consumers rights. There is strong evidence that this product is broken. If your neighbour complained about his new lawn mower not working I bet you'd say "complain and take it back" wouldn't you? This is no different. I don't believe anyone here has even said don't buy a product, the most that has been said is boycott rivet. re. their work on the WCML. We are all allowed under free speech to voice our opinions along those lines and encourage others to do the same, for the benefit of all, in others words to fight back against this shoddy product collectively. Besides we are all adults not vulnerable people who cannot make up their own mind. You are behaving like the nanny state.
Yes agreed. Some posters appear to be trying to shame people into not making a purchase by trying to take some moral high ground. Frankly it's puerile behaviour. I am not happy with the timetable, in fact very disappointed so am on the fence currently and will decide this evening. However if I was ever minded to not buy something in a moment of camaraderie, comments like many on this thread would stop me.
Everyone on here could be said to be imposing their views on others it's a forum where people give their views. I don't feel anyone should be trying to persuade others how to spend their money, but carry on if you feel it is right, you might find it has the opposite affect. I didn't say we shouldn't come together to complain, I was referring to persuading to not purchase it which is what I thought you were aiming at, maybe I misread it. I started a thread on the timetable which seemed to die a death, that could have been used to drive the point home about the timetable, instead we ended up with a long laborious thread which got locked as inevitably disagreements ensued, which I am guilty of too. Divisive comments are never going to be a driver for change Some of the comments on this thread alone (not yours as you are always reasonable) would not persuade me to join in in any boycott. You might find some will end up pushing back against it. I don't lean towards DTG. When something bothers me I complain, when something doesn't, I don't. Overall I enjoy TSW despite it's faults and am a glass half full person. However operations and timetables not being realistically portrayed are the issues there bother me most. Sounds are another. I can live with a bit of shonky lighting. We all have things which bother us differently. I am not behaving like the nanny state, that is something in real life I'm very against. Trying to rail others into doing as you wish could also be considered to imposing a nanny state attitude.
Sorry but now you are just on your soapbox inventing things to suit your agenda. Nobody has degenerated anybody passively or otherwise. What has actually happened is many of us have voiced our collective opinions about a broken product that had it been physical would have been returned to the shop. I think the strongest thing that has been said is "boycott rivet". Nobody has said don't buy DTG products. We are perfectly in our rights to say things like that as paying customers in an attempt to gain traction to enable this virtual mess to be fixed. Funny thing is that people like you will benefit too. I have higher standards about a product than you obviously. Every argument on these two threads have been by people getting aggressive about others who have the right to complain and I don't really understand why when such an obviously poor product as WCML is being passed off as acceptable for a core route. So please don't invent sentences and statements to give try and give yourself the false moral high ground. There really is no problem. Adults will buy what they want. Have a good day.
If people want to spend their hard earned money on mediocre content at best, that’s entirely up to them. I can’t pretend to understand it, but that’s life. I know I’ll be keeping my money locked away until WCML is fixed. I’m not even going to buy it discounted in its current form because in my view, it’s just insulting to players to even release what they’ve shown us.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and I respect that. I think the win win for everybody would be this potentially glorious route being given the priority treatment it deserves to fix it. I have no beef with DTG other than the fact that they have been caught out twice recently being too trusting and taking the flak as a result, both with rivet and LNWR licensing. I haven't seen those other comments you refer to, could you direct them to me please. I hope everyone has been nice and respected the topic.
Just from the above conversation, my view here is that most people agree DTG have been on the up & up in terms of their content. The issue (at least my issue) with DTG is that they made a very poor choice in who they have entrusted with this route. That issue has been further exasperated by DTG’s lacklustre response to making improvements. This route needs much more than minor tweaks and the timetable is a non-starter.
While it keeps flying into off topic territory, there's not been any personal insults thrown at other users. Moderation takes time - time that I usually have. But right before launch, it gets significantly busier for the team. The forum rules are there to keep discussion healthy. Opinions, regardless of whether they are negative or positive? We need them, we want them and we understand them. I review this thread constantly - it's always open on my desktop and if any new feedback comes up, it gets logged. I just ask, as JD did on Friday on the previous thread, that we focus on the main topic.
Buy our game, we will be your best friend. People sadly fall for this, businesses are just putting a face on their company to be more appealing to players, people get sucked in.
No one has told the organist or Fred or whoever DO NOT BUY TSW5, no one at all. All that's been suggested is that if you want things to improve moving forwards, financials is the only currency that the people in charge take notice of. If you just keep buying it regardless of content nothing will ever change because they frankly don't care. I mean it's pretty basic innit? If you want to buy it, do it but don't expect things to change moving forward.
I agree I think they have dropped the ball with this route, which is a shame as their content has been very good in the past couple of years and this should be a flagship route. I am not going to quote individual comments, partly as I'm on my phone, but comments suggesting people are only looking after their own interests and another I saw referring to people as mugs are clearly in my opinion trying to create a narrative. There have been comments suggesting people are letting the side down, it particularly started with the Fife Circle release. I am clearly not the only one who feels this. Anyway I shall say no more as I don't want to see the thread locked.
Perhaps one way to look at it, is disregard WCML, treat it as a free bonus item and we are paying £54 for SBD, the German route and Flixtrain - at full price would be £72. More if you factor the 390 as a standalone. And after a couple of evenings on and off in Run 8, where the idea of scenery is 2D trees and bushes alongside the track and little nut bare terrain beyond, it does put things in perspective. Even Rivet's interpretation of the WCML looks somewhat better. So there are no absolutes in this and has to be a personal decision.
Yup, I’ll be watching the Frankfurt stream & going from there. Whilst I’m not overly into German routes atm (fatigue from the similarities of them all), there is certainly scope there for this to be something quite special. SB is a full on write off for me so I’d remove that from any value calculation regardless of WCML issues. WCML has the scope to be great & generally, when the criticism has been this loud previously (for DTG products) they have took significant action. The genuine only worry I’m having there is the ‘final’ stance DTG have on the timetable. Ultimately how you work out which piece of content is worth how much within the bundle price is up to the individual, but I think it still remains cheaper than usual DLC costs. I do feel it’s important though to make sure DTG are aware that what weve seen of TSW 5 is wholly unacceptable. They can do better than this. They really need to sort out getting a thorough development checklist in place, along with addressing development timescales that are clearly too thin.
Spot on. Buy it if you want to, don’t buy it if you don’t want to. I don’t know about anyone else but I’m just really tired of this circus. All I want is a route (and game frankly) that is up to the standard of previous content. As it’s a ‘new game’ it would also be nice to have some new features to go with it that aren’t half-arsed and not fully ready (track shadows, map labels, suspension (still!) and conductor mode fall straight into that category). Going back and forth about who will and who won’t buy is pointless. I think it’s fair to say that the proportion of people who are fully content with what they’ve seen so far is very small. We need to be collectively making sure that DTG understand that this isn’t good enough, not bickering like children. Every time it feels like things have genuinely improved with TSW the ball gets dropped again. Time and again they say they are listening but I don’t think they ever hear to be honest. Rivet’s consistently poor standard of work reflects badly on DTG. Like it or not it is DTG’s (and Focus’) name on this product and it is them and the game that ultimately suffers. I wish you could see that if this route had even hit the standards of ECML then no one would be sat here complaining. Clearly WCMLS in its current state is like a greatest hits of everything that has ever been wrong with the game. How that was ever allowed to happen mystifies me and at this point, if it were my company, whoever was responsible for the setting of unachievable deadlines, the lack of oversight and clear breakdown in communication would be relieved of their duties. You have to ask, how many more times is this going to happen?
I know what you mean and listen you don't have to justify your decision to me, I just want players to be aware that TSW isnt finished, DTG are a long way from fixing it, DTG are on a money grab. The model DTG operate is they want your money while they try and patch a so called finished product and make the players wait.
Yeah I understand the situation at the moment, they are essentially releasing an unfinished product and will fix it later which isnt the point as it should be ready now, however I would like to claim the Deluxe edition before the 10% discount ends on the 17th Sept. I like this because it has the WCML, 390 and the German content which I am interested in and £54 isnt a bad price for it all. I could wait for a sale and buy the routes individually but that could take a while and im getting bored now and need something new to do on this game.
It is what it is. No matter how much we moan or abuse eachother, it's not gonna change the fact tsw5 is launching as is! I've not cancelled my pre order. I will see for myself once it's downloaded. Probably on official launch day!
Just to think if this route was being released as a finished product that should of been in Mint condition this wouldn't be happening :/ So I respect everyone's opinions. I am very excited still for tomorrow especially with WCML, I just hope the Scenery is appealing compared to ECML atrocious scenery. But For such a requested route it is shameful that it is being released in the state as it is. Bored on TSW 4 now so I ain't refunding my pre-order. I trust DTG will come with improvements.
That's kind of where I am at, I buy all the routes and all the locos, how soon and for what price depends on previews, forum discussions etc. There is no such thing as a route that I'm not interested in playing, but how much I am willing to pay depends on quality above anything else. Most routes I pick up a few months later in their first sale, typically 30% off and the most critical bugs are ironed out by then too. Had these all been released as seperate DLCs then I would have spent approx £51 on San Bernadino, Frankfurt and the Flixtrain, making the 390 a pocket change pick up at £3, I'll follow your lead and consider the WCML route itself free! Of course that value perception depends entirely on the quality of tonight's Frankfurt stream, if it's also missing half the timetable and the lighting has been built to match drone footage rather than what the human eye would actually see, then the whole package will be waiting for a deep discount.
The difference between NYT and WCMLS is a certain third party known for putting out sub-par quality and subsequently ignoring feedback was involved in the latter. Make of that what you will, but I personally will not be spending a penny on anything to do with this route until meaningful improvements are made, which I still doubt despite what DTG have said.
Doesn't mean they compiled the timetable and even if they did doesn't mean DTG can't amend it. I haven't made a decision either way yet. I will see what Frankfurt is like, San Bernardino looked decent although it's the sort of route I'd only normally buy in a sale.
The missing services and inconsistencies of the timings of intermediate stops are typically hallmarks of a Rivet timetable. Regardless, it appears that the timetable isn't even a priority for them anyway, DTG have said so.
I've been off the forums for a while till the past couple of days where I've been catching up on the soon to be released TSW5 and especially this route as I'm only interested in UK routes. I see the poor timetable has been highlighted a number of times so out of interested when compared to other UK routes we already have, how busy should this route be and what would it's counterpart be (BML,etc...)? I've watched the stream now and was surprised on how poor some of the areas were shown which has been highlighted quite significantly in this post so I won't dwell on that. My gut was saying to pre-order however after the responses I've seen from DTG I'll be going for the starter pack and waiting to see if any improvements come.
There is absolutely no excuse for a cut down OG timetable, except perhaps for Gen 8/Series S. Just about any modern PC could deal with the full-fat traffic on the route, not sure about Gen 9 consoles mind you, but they probably could. In any case, no reason to penalise PC players with lacklustre timetables.
I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions and should be allowed to express those opinions. What I detest are the calls to change mindsets or telling others what to do with respect to their buying decisions. State why you don’t like the product, make your purchasing decisions as you wish, but do not be condescending toward others that don’t follow your convictions. What you find “immersion” breaking might not be a factor in how another uses the “simulation” . Statements such as “why people want to spend money on a mediocre product is beyond me” are not needed. It could be because they do not rate the product as mediocre. Finally remember Train simulation is a pastime people participate in for a pleasurable diversion from the rigors of everyday life. Let’s keep that in mind when posting in the forums.
