Dear dovetail I understand having limited routes on a base copy of a game, but to still have it limited with DLC 5 games in is very farfetched. There are only so many times I can go to and from Milton Keynes. I was excited to get the Avanti add on only to find out I can still only go as far as Milton Keynes. It is already monotonous. If you're going to charge me for a dlc, at least put the effort in to I don't know making the line longer, put some effort into maybe building up Manchester Piccadilly or Crewe or Warrington, Wigan.
So for example, how would you like to see this fixed? I read the forum as a player of the game with a lot of time in. How could you imagine they do better? Look at what we have from a small team of developers. Do you expect that tomorrow they can just produce a route you like??? Just send your thoughts in the suggestion section I would think.
The longer a route, the more time and resources needed to make it. Then you've got to consider how well it'd sell so that you can make a profit. Also, the more complex the trackwork, the more time it takes. Also, the section of WCML might be small for the Pendolino, but there's plenty to do for commuter services. Plus with all the complexity of the Euston end, having the route end at Milton Keynes makes sense.
And, I don’t want to pile on here with a second comment, but I guess I will, did you have the impression that buying the 390 would give you a longer route?? If so, it was VERY clearly laid out that the locomotive itself was the add-on, not an additional route length. I am of the opinion, they while it does seem annoying to some that the fixes here should have been in TSW4, the free TSW5 option was EXACTLY that. I can’t imagine how people still want more, as this is hundreds/thousands of hours of work. Should they be free? Needless to say, enjoy the game which we are kind of lucky to have, or don’t. But at least read and understand what comes with the product before buying and then saying something different afterwards. Just my two cents!
I'll be honest I do love the work that has been put into this but it's been rushed with the timetable and with saying the route should be longer I do think that dovetail should have extended the line to Rugby with the Northampton loop there's a lot of potential with this especially with the terminus of London Euston dovetail could eventually extend extend but we know there's limitations with this but there could be a lot of route hopping in future for further destinations but we do need to make some good use of the 390 to get a good 150+ miles of gameplay would have been more appropriate and for filled our gameplay needs!
No doubt in my mind WCMLS should have been longer even if that was at the expense of starting at Watford rather than Euston. I did a run with the Pendolino last night from MKC to Euston. Basically 18 minutes with speed set at 120 MPH from MKC to just north of Watford Tunnel, reset to 110 MPH from there to Wembley then light braking down Camden Bank into Euston. All over in half an hour. Going to Rugby or maybe along the Trent Valley would have offered a bit more of a run and a challenge. The only redeeming point was I hit the sweet spot to see more than one train plying its trade on the DC Line.
The length was the dealbreaker for me not considering any of the packs offered for TSW5. Quite like last year besides the upgrade costs. If you offer a route and charge for an additional highspeed train, then the route be better so long, that this train can strech its legs. And yes, I can see the reasoning behind the length, especially after the discussion about ECML why it is not from London. But the learning for WCML should have been making the route longer, perhaps more expensive, and not making it shorter. Sometimes, DTG, making a compromise out of financial reasons is not a good choice. But that is just me.
The topic of route length has been discussed many times over the years. Everyone would love longer routes, but obviously time and resource constrains are a thing. But at least there is progress. Recent routes tend to be longer than earlier ones.
Personally I would have liked a longer run in the Pendolino but not at the expense of the rest. I don't like routes which start and finish in the middle of a journey, well not unless they are major stations. Euston to Rugby would have ensured a good run in the Pendolino whilst keeping the busyness (if modelled correctly) at the southern end. Although Rugby isn't that major a station.
In my opinion, the route length and variety is perfect for the included traction (Class 350, 377, 66). What is outrageous is that the Pendolino DLC costs a lot for 19 minutes along this route. Maybe it would have been better if the Pendolino came with an extension of the route, even if the cost of the DLC was slightly higher. But I guess they had to rush it to market, for the TSW5 launch. UPDATE: Having been corrected about the length of Pendolino services on this route, I hereby change my opinion and will say that the DLC is on par with other similar loco DLCs.
Although it is out of time, I look forward to running the Pendo on the Preston to Carlisle route in Free Mode. Also, if you don’t mind about authenticity (or lack of it), you could try it on electric high speed routes such as SEHS, TGV or Kassel-Wurzbuug if you have them.
Exactly! Prior to TSW4, loco DLCs had a warning that said "such-and-such-route is required, as a separate purchase, in order to utilise the content featured in this add-on". From TSW4 onward, the loco DLCs have a different warning: "For the full experience, we recommend you own such-and-such-route which is available as a separate purchase." Because with the Free Roam functionality, a loco is no longer "married" to a route.
Personally I'm the same with route's not having 2 end to end mainline stations However I know that it would probably require insane amount of time to get this done to Birmingham which is my preference for it to finish at. But tbh even having this at Coventry or Rugby would have been great and use with the Daventry freight terminal but we would had a bit more gameplay from Rugby especially having the Northampton loop it would've essentially added a new waypoint in the game for players who have purchased the 390 to get more content out of it. However this could be a learning curve for dtg in future who knows but you never know they could just extend and extend the route in different dlcs and have route hopping for now who knows in the future they could possibly stitch them up but I have no idea how this could be done but oh well another suggestion thrown in the air lol
Sorry, I misread OldVern's post. But then what are we complaining about? It's not too short, it's similar to TGV run on LGV, or 395 to Ashford, isn't it? Could it have been longer? Sure. We can say that of any route, particularly with High Speed trains.
Yes sorry, it’s about 30 minutes non stop from MKC to Euston and that was not bothering to go back up from 110 to 125 from Bushey to Wembley.
Yeah personally I think it’s fine, it’s not the longest run, but it’s not the shortest either, especially when you consider the route was made for the 40-70 minute runs in the 350.
It does have the advantage if you use the Pendolino, you can usually do it in one sitting. And 125 MPH is fast enough not to notice some of the shonky route building!
This is the thing really, I’m not against a longer WCML at all in theory, but look what they did with 50 miles. If you pushed this to 70+ miles I think it would have been a fully rigged disaster.
IMO (I don’t own it yet) the WCMLS is undoubtedly too short for the Pendolino but ok for the 350 and the few 710 services. As the Pendo was being sold with a big fanfare then they should have stretched the route a bit further to Rugby. The dlc is not cheap. For this reason I will wait until it goes on deep sale.
DTG could make longer routes. Question is, would you pay more for a longer route, given the additional developments costs ? Riviera Route would be a classic example....... 30 miles Paignton to Exeter £29.99 40 miles Paignton to Exeter + Exeter to Exmouth £35.99 Are players willing to pay more, for more?
In regards to WCML, 30 mins is enough for a completely barren and empty track with extremely limited AI, any longer and I'd fall into a coma.
I don't mind shorter routes if they are from terminal to terminal. Like Niddertal or WSR. At least give us a logical end, fx. a typical crewchange station. Yes - if the route is qualitywise good I would pay more. Infact I've paid for the expansion pack for Köln Aachen wich activated the S-Bahn route. Besides: If you publish a "new" game, highlighting a high speed train with a route short as a thumb, I'm not convinced to spend any money. WCML should have been a banger, a firework of what TSW5 is capable of. But sadly it isn't.
Which is near average for TSW to be fair. The stated goal has always been to give "quick" drives not "long" ones. That's what TSC is for.
No, they are not. We've been over this in the 6 or 7 threads that already exist about "we need longer routes" and the same debate that happens every time.... The most common TSW complaints are: "We want longer routes!" "We want more trains!" "We want to pay less!" And those don't go together at all, especially the third one. It boils down to "I want more and don't want to pay for it."
DTG tell us multiple times, that the majority of the player base play for 30-45mins. So there's some disparity here. Not sure about the wanting to pay less, I haven't seen that as a huge blowup concern.
No, to be clear it's not the MAJORITY demanding longer routes. It's a loud minority on the forum demanding that (and paying less and more locos.) The majority are actually just quietly playing the game....on console... on modern routes... with EMUs according to DTG. The majority are getting what they want.
Had to throw that vague "out" on the end I see. "Everything it could possibly offer".... what does that mean EXACTLY? "Everything" is pretty broad, leaving wiggle room for you to say "well this tiny thing wasn't included so I won't pay NOW!" Again, it's what we in the military used to call "mission creep" or "feature evolution." Everyone agreed...BUT bit by bit one thing after another "had to be added or it's a failure!" Well it's a "masterpiece"... except it needs to be longer... and with these locos.... and it's too expensive... and it needs to go here... and now here... and now here... and now that it goes here, you need this branding, this loco and this OTHER branch to here...." That's not how you treat a "masterpiece." That's just "seeing what else I can get for free." "Can I get a Mona Lisa... and can you throw in that Monet too for free? I mean they're practically a paired set so it's not TOO much trouble...." If there's a small, specific bug or feature or add on that you can support extensively and isn't unreasonable, that's one thing. "The line needs to be 1 mile longer to include this station because that's where most trains stop and you can route hop from this to that line".... that's one small, specific request. Just saying "it's too short, it's too expensive and there aren't enough trains".... those are all vague to the point of meaningless and don't seek to improve the route with minimal investment. They are vague and excessive demands for personal selfishness. A tip from business: When asking for something, phrase it so the OTHER person sees the value added for them. What do THEY get out of it? They're far more likely to listen and respond favorably if you show them how THEY benefit. "You can add a feature here that people will pay for and open up a new route to sell"- good "Do it because I want it and I don't care if it'll cost you more work to do it"- bad Imagine you are the other person, the creator and you're TAKING the criticism. You also have a staff with families to pay. What form of feedback would YOU like to see from someone else?
It's a shame that steam is dead in the water because I would definitely pay for Kingswear to Exeter in the 50s. I'll just have to stick with the TSC version. Exeter to Exmouth is still a nice route though.
I seem to remember when the first long high speed route come out, people complained because it was boring! After complaining routes was too short. I would rather 100 miles spread over a few branch lines, rather than 100 mile a to be runs personally.
This. It's a matter of "different strokes for different folks" I suppose. You can't run an HST without a long, straight track... but then again those same long lines tend to be boring and linear. Like in real life. Personally I don't see the advantage in playability of having a train twice as fast on twice the rails. It takes the same amount of time so it's not really "longer." A 120mph train in the standard 40 minutes of play time just goes 80 miles instead of 30-40. But it's still 40 minutes. I get it. Everyone is different. I get it. People were salivating over the 390 for some reason. However, make a CASE for wherever they want it to go. The 50 miles of the WCML still gives you a 30 minute drive (without stops) and longer if there's stops. If you want all 100 miles, then make a SOLID case for why the route should be that long (because it COULD be extended like SESH, but you need to CONVINCE them since it's at the outer edge for a detailed route. Kassel for example is longer but MUCH of it is empty space, no stops, bridge and tunnels.) The 100 miles from London to Birmingham WOULD be a cool route, I'm WITH you (even if the 390 isn't my thing) but it'd require a lot of work, and if TWICE the time is put in (it'd be adding 60 miles, not just a couple miles) so then it should cost TWICE as much as the WCML we now have right? To be fair? If people are REALLY interested, then I'd suggest an "extended version" that isn't mandatory or "free" but that people can buy for $60-$80 PREORDER. If it gets a certain number of preorders, people are locked in and it's made. People with the existing WCML can keep that or upgrade for the additional cost ($30-$40), maybe a 10% discount if you have the 390? However, a preorder makes it less risky for the company and really can gauge support in the community for it FIRST. It'd be a win for players and a win for DTG. That sounds fair to me. Making the case for Birmingham, it's a major hub. You can connect to 1 existing route with it, and Birmingham should be a spoke to other locations/routes in the future. It's a natural for routes from there to Preston, Liverpool, and up north to Glasgow. Again, sell DTG on increased potential value from more sales. There would be a continued market for 390 owners of the route for the REST of the route up to Preston...where it would CONNECT WITH THE NEW JT ROUTE AND BLACKPOOL thereby multiplying the value there. Note...not saying the whole THING is a new route... just that if you had a 100 mile route to Birmingham, then the Birmingham-Preston route would make a similar sized 94 mile route linking BPO and the Carlisle route, making it even MORE valuable. This would be bonus added to bonus synergy, which would be good for players and DTG too. I'm not advocating anything beyond what DTG has proven they can do with ECML/SEHS/Kassel, but I'm saying you need to SELL IT and let DTG know what's in it FOR THEM too. I know I'd preorder a WCML that went all the way from London to Birmingham. I'd definitely pay the extra $30-$40. I WOULD put my money down and PROVE it's a wanted route. I don't demand anything for free. Words are cheap. Money is better. Who else would lay down cash for a London-Birmingham extension? Birmingham-Preston?
I think maybe dtg might do it in stages (possibly) so the next stage would be mk to b'ham. Hopefully If such a thing materialises it will be a extension and not stop at mk and route hop. Who knows. I would pay more money for full length lines. But like you say, it's each to their own. Not everyone is gonna wanna spend that amount on a single route. And dtg aren't going to make it if it isn't going to sell. Looking at the timetable on wcml and other routes, dtg don't even want to put in the work on the shorter routes by the looks of it. No offence towards matt but I would have looked at wcml and said to the team, is this really how it's being released! I would like to think that's what was going thru he's mind when he was playing it.
I'm definitely with this however I'd prefer to do this is one simple run rather than route hopping but I understand destinations further than Birmingham is way too much to ask for but it'd be amazing to route hop from Birmingham new st! Id 100% pay more for this content to happen
Hi, I was thinking of getting the Class 390 Pendolino this week, but I want to wait for the Preston-Carlisle WCML route. Can the Class 390 be used on any other routes besides the Euston-MK route in the meantime?
My suggestion would be that it's a PAID extension of the WCML to Birmingham making it one complete route (for those that want it) that goes from London to Birmingham. That's plenty long enough for one route (it's almost 100 miles.) It's right at the edge of what's achievable and proven in game. It's a bit more populated than something like Kassel, so that's why I'm okay with it costing twice as much (for those that don't have the original route) Unlike Kassel which is pretty linear and boring, there'd be lots more stops and scenery from what I gather. I'm definitely not a native of the area, but just looking at a map that's a lot more detailed route with at the very least more traffic and stations. It seems to be from playing the southern existing part (and seeing it on TSC) that it'd be a lot of work making the part from Milton-Keyes to Birmingham (especially near Birmingham) so it seems right to me that it'd be just as much work as they put in for the WCML.
Yeah as long as they'd put the Northampton loop for use of the 350 we could do full runs essentially on the 350 which I'd absolutely geek out for and pre-order it for sure this would be insane extension to the line and I'm sure people would definitely pay the extra to run the 390 down it. Also the local lines to Coventry and Northampton would be great to play as well
After reading this I think we should start a new thread titled “NEVER ENOUGH” Not trying to pick on you at all but starting off a reply with “Yeah as long as they’d put….” Is the classic starting sentence for feature creep. So no matter what a company decides to do it will be NEVER ENOUGH for some. I do think it would be a great topic for a new thread
Not necessarily it just comes hand in hand with the WCML as I've travelled on both routes via Northampton and look and the 390 but hey extra dlc content would be fantastic to add for the route in future - but hey this is all inspiration so that we get better content in the future we can't have everything but things should be a be bit more balanced so that we get fair amount of gameplay in one run
Agreed. That's why I said you have to sell it... not just demand more free stuff. Not all ideas are bad. There is a huge difference between whining and constructive suggestions however. Saying "I want" means nothing to the other person. Saying "We could both benefit by...." makes it worth looking into. It's a valid point to suggest where the "paid extension" would go to or include since it's all speculation and suggestion at this point. "It completes the 350 service" (I don't know it that's true or not) would be a possible selling point for advertising and a logical "end point." That's why I brought up the 390 earlier. If you look at the real life route of the 390 and how many people are BUYING the 390, then that's additional follow-on sales. It's not "I want this" (because I really don't like the 390 honestly), but more "this is an expansion of an existing market with proven customers." No, nothing DTG does will ever be ENOUGH for some people. That's human nature. However, couching it in things in the company's interest does increase the chance that they might actually happen. Rather than "gimme gimme gimme!"
I think it was boring, not because of the length but because…. well, it was boring. The idea of multiple branches is a good one as well. I would certainly pay extra for, say, an upgraded GWE with the branches included (Greenford, Windsor, Marlow, Henley and possibly Heathrow Express) together with the appropriate trains.
The route has fairly clearly been advertised as "West Coast Mainline South: London Euston - Milton Keynes" "South" suggests that it's the southern section of the line (which it is) "London Euston - Milton Keynes" - to me, at least, would suggest that London - MK is the extent of the route. If you assume that the route (or with the 390, for whatever reason) is longer than it is, that doesn't mean it has to be. It just means you thought wrong.
The Pendolino is the biggest disappointment for me on the WCML and I regret buying the deluxe edition for it. The commuter services with the other rolling stock is what makes this route shine for me. Pendolino runs are better on the TSC anyways since it’s 125 mile in length to Birmingham.
