Alan Thompson Simulation Route Discussion/speculation Thread

Yes I can understand this if it was their 3rd route, but it's their 1st route. What was Rivet's first route? Yep the Island line.... Badly done with very poor scenery.

 

I'd go as far to say, that they are probably going to be very close in the levels of detail.

 

According to Wikipedia there's a Northern service from Wigan - Alderley Edge where it terminates

Its the new posh name for the driver and conductor isn't it?

 

Tadami Line is over 80 Kilometers or More with huge Scenary?
There TSC Route was a mess.

How many Miles Are missing to Crewe?

 

Ooooh 80 kilometers of mostly rural scenery.... Not hard to do... 25 miles of suburban railway quite asset heavy with the level of detail to match Just Trains. If you don't like the idea of what ATS is doing, DO NOT BUY it.... Your opinion has been heard. Stop repeating yourself.

It's a 20 minute journey from Crewe to Alderley Edge.

 

Are there services from Piccadilly that terminate at Alderley Edge? Crewe would have been better, not a fan of middle of route end points.

 

Quality over quantity for their first route. Don't like it, don't buy it.

 

Same here Steve, bit like ECML, not enjoyable since no terminating points (exclude Newark Northgate)

 

There looks to be an area near Heald Green Station where the planes go right over the tracks - looking forward to that if I end up buying the route.

 

Taking everything into account have to come down on the side that it's just too short. This is on a par with the Bernina Line ending at Ospizio instead of going through to St Moritz. Not really hearing justification for them being a small team or their first project - no doubt this will be going on sale at £30 (maybe £25). In fact as the route is simply recycling the 323 from Glossop and no new rolling stock, then £20 seems a more reasonable price to pitch this at - £10 come sale time.

If you are a commercial developer then you know what you're getting into and should budget the time and resources accordingly - perhaps instead of a main line they should have done something a bit more rural and straightforward. If you can't do a prototype justice, pick something else.

 

Yeah, services that terminate at both Wilmslow and Alderley edge are even represented at Piccadilly in Glossop

 

Presumably there won't be AI trams running out of the airport and also under the line at East Didsbury? Apologies if that's been answered already, but I wondered after seeing them occasionally when around Edinburgh.

 

Hopefully they can get those cars that have driven into the wet concrete out.

 

Sold, realistic signalling is a must for me - nothing much worse than inaccurate approach control etc in train sims, imo.
(and the new UK speed signs are a great touch)

 

Sounds like the Class 390 and EMT Class 158 will be on the route as well? Although earlier before that, the moderator said just the 323 as rolling stock? Still looking forward to this!

 

Of course, I ammmm... disappointed that the route did not reach Crewe, but will follow the further development

 

Odd choice , playability in the long term seems limited

 

All this whinging over the length of the route...

Look, this is ATS first route, give them a bloody chance for God sake. To be honest it's really nice and busy little commuter route and I'm quite glad they've gone for the section of route they have selected as it has alot to offer. Nowt wrong with using the Northern 323 either as its a decent EMU that doesn't get its full potential on Glossop alone. Could it if been longer? Maybe. But for me I'm quite content with the Airport branch potential that has, and the route down to Styal.

The layers that are possible with this route will really bring it to life.

Genuinely looking forward to it, and it'll be a nice change to see a route get the love and detail it needs before release. Good luck to ATS with this and will be a nice addition to TSW.

 

Images look great.

I'm a tad bit disappointed by the lack of a train, I was hoping there would be some collaboration similar to the effect of what JT and DTG did with the Pacer.

Let's see how it goes though. Should still bring a good amount of entertainment.

 

Much higher speeds for what, 10 minutes? It’s still going to get monotonous. At least Manchester will be busy with all the AI though

 

The route not going to Crewe is disappointing, it misses out a logical end point as well as route hopping between here and SOS. If the 390 is there, its quite limited in what you can do as well.

However, quality sells. Quantity doesn't. I'd much rather they produce a good quality route at the expense of its length.

 

That's not all the details - that's a random and confusingly written list of included stuff!

 

That is from Alan Thompsons group on Facebook, where he announced the route, in which his moderator is replying to questions. As you can tell by the way I expressed my thoughts on that post, I am not saying it is 100% true.

 

If you're referring to Hayden, he's one of the developers for TSW content at ATS.

 

It does look good so far

I'm not really bothered about the lack of new rolling stock as a lot of existing stock could cover, especially so if the calendar was moved back just a year or two (so TfW 158s in place of 197s, Sprinters on a number of Northern services too).

The biggest disappointment for me is that it isn't going to Crewe, I understand that the development team is new to the sim and whatnot but I think that being able to run from Manchester to Crewe opens up more opportunities for example 66s could haul freight between the two (even if it starts just outside of Picc P13 instead of the freight yard) as well as 390s getting to stretch their legs a bit. Oh well it is what it is, I'll still get it as I have a vested interest in that line but it might not be a day 1 purchase for me now.

 

So no crewe (I honestly dont know how to feel about that- it is ATS first route for TSW after all) but seriously we are only paying for the route yet no new trains??????? Come on cant we get a class 331, 333, 195, or 769 (or i dunno 319?) for a Northern EMUs??? Even if ATS doesnt make the train surely some other 3rd party developer can help with this issue??? I dont want another Class 323 anymore-

And whats worse, if this is another case where you might be able to (partly) complete the WCML, that means this route is required if u want to get up to Manchester. Which is not a whole lot worth.
The only chance i am seeing myself getting this is that if i dont want the glossip line i can get the northern 323 from this route. But thats it.

 

This was the highlight of the roadmap for me.

The 323 is really good, so it's nice to get another chance to drive it.

It WILL have the suspension update, right?

 

Then don't buy the route.

 

I have no doubt this will be a very well made route. I enjoy the class 323 so I am not concerned about it being used again, I wouldn't have expected a new train to be included.

I know it is their first route but I do feel a bit disappointed that it doesn't go to Crewe, it would have provided a decent run for the Pendolino if it had done. Alderley Edge does seem an odd place to terminate but if it a terminating point then that isn't so bad.

I will likely get it but I would definitely be looking at the timetable before deciding for sure.

 

not an excuse and argument doesnt work.

 

OK you want an arguement, ok then....

Reasons you didn't get a new loco with this route.

1. Very small development team.
2. The team are actively learning UE4 while building this route.
3. Creating a locomotive/unit is extremely hard work, and resource intensive.
4. ATS didn't want to be the new Rivet Games, releasing a half baked unit and a half baked route.
5. It's their first route.

While I get you aren't happy, no one is holding a gun to your head demanding you buy the route. Yes everyone wants something better than is being offered, but this route will be highly detailed, highly accurate and a good first effort. Let me remind you of the Island Line and all the problems after that was released.

 

Yeah Hayden I was referring to. I saw the locos mentioned hence I mentioned them here wondering if they would be included.

 

Looking forward to shots of Stockport Viaduct, that must have taken a bit of dev time, especially if the area is highly detailed. The pyramid better be visible! As a Mancunian resident I'm interested in any route in the area. I'm not sure if Alderley Edge is still a terminating location, I certainly used to be but that was back in the early 2000s. Would have been nice for it to go to Crewe as well, but I'll take them developing both the Stockport and Styal lines over just one of them.

We certainly need a Northern DLC pack at some point. Both this and Glossop need some stock. Even a Northern skinned 158, 142 and 150 will add a nice bit of variety.

 

I did think some (alternating?) trains from Southport to Manchester terminated at Alderley Edge, but it seems that service stopped a few years ago.

 

This service doesn't run anymore.

 

I will be happy to support this route with a purchase, providing the price point is intelligently set.

 

I've seen your thread that was closed and criticism of this route, and I've got to say you are talking a load of old twaddle...

What's wrong with reusing rolling stock that is appropriate for the route? It's accurate. And it gives the 323 a route to stretch its legs. The 323 in the game is really nicely modelled and under utilised on a decent upto date route too. ATS aren't an established developer in TSW (TSC yes) so how you're judging this upcoming content based on a few images is not fair. We've only had a few teasing pictures. The route lengh is short and commuter like, but it has a airport terminal where you'll be able to run full services back to back... and being ATS it'll be very detailed and well made. And the route itself has many AI layer opportunities and is a well picked section of the route for their first add on.

No one is twisting your arm behind your back and forcing you to buy it upon release? I'd understand your criticism more so if this was a TSW5 flagship route, or Rivet with their established reputation, but it's neither. You've not even given them the chance and the route isn't be forced on you, you can take it or leave it.

 

Over the last year I've repeatedly said that the first ATS route "uses rolling stock that's already in-game". It's not been a secret so I'm surprised that people are expecting new traction.

The attitude shown towards some developers is nothing short of puerile.

However, I am getting more than a little fed-up with the London Midland Region obsession. We've had 8 LMR routes and just 1 Eastern Region route in that time. That's not directed at the hard-working developers but at management decisions made within DTG.

With a wage cut on the way, I'm having to make savings so won't be purchasing any future DLC that's not in my area of interest (London/South East/East Anglia). I'll leave others to enjoy the forthcoming Just Trains, ATS and DTG routes up north and in Wales.

 

They go right over Stockport station too on finals.
I've used this route from the very start in real life and seen alot of change over the decades.
Some good some not good.
Wonder if only half the moving floors on the skyway don't work, it'd be a nice touch of realism.
Day one buy for me it's short but a cracking good and busy route.

 

Very excited about this one.

 

Pardon my friend.

Bernina Line was advertised as Tirano - Ospizio. It is roughly a 90 minutes ride. And the route and stock are well crafted for TSW standards. The route was released in a fine state, not even needing a patch.

The MML is not only Leicester - Derby - Nottingham. Where was the outcry there? Hardly anybody repeatedly complained that it should go to Sheffield for example (or to St. Pancras).

TSW is generally not giving you full routes. Not GWML, not ECML, not SPG, not MML, not WCML, not Hagen-Siegen, etc. The fact that track is laid (which is the easiest part of route building, they'll rather lay more track than needed initially before handing the route to the signalling and scenery team, when the scope of the project is not clearly outlined yet - which is all about defining the scope of profitability) till St. Moritz doesn't mean you should be entitled to get the full route for the price you paid.

So when DTG put the line name in front of the DLC it does not mean you get the full end to end route - it is just telling you that the route is a part of said line.

 

Keep your chin up! ATS have got you!

 

I mentioned several times that I thought MML was too short and would have been better going to Sheffield and I wasn't the only one. I moaned about ECML stopping at Doncaster, I complained about WCL and I am sure I bored people to tears with my moaning about Peak Forest!

My main complaint with TSW is with the scope of the routes as sometimes they just don't make sense to me. I realise developers have limits though. This is why network or self contained routes like Cathcart are my favourite as they feel complete, the routes with longer distance lines never quite work for me.

That reminds me I still haven't purchased Berminalinie.

 

Yeah, loads of people complained about that. It's a fun route but it's ludicrously short: only just over 20 minutes end to end for a non-stop run.

 

Oh indeed it was advertised as terminating at Ospizio but I am not the only one who felt this did not represent the best Bernina Line experience. I'm glad, for once, Rivet didn't balls it up but that doesn't detract from it not being the complete route and finishing (or starting) at a rather odd location.

Likewise MML. IMHO it should have gone to Sheffield to provide a more fulfilling experience and sure I said so at the time.

DTG and their third party associates seem to delight in producing these sawn off routes from nowhere to (maybe) somewhere but it gets frustrating compared to what's in TSC.

High time the developers started a bit of project management and work out what they can do to avoid these foreshortened little stubs of route. If JT can do it with WCML over Shap, that's the template and example to follow. If they can't cut it with the workload and what's required, then go back to TSC development.

 

The scope of the routes is based on standard business management formulas. You have to make a product that

a) assures the cost spent on development will be covered by expected revenue
b) you can continue to pay your employees, giving them a safe job
c) you are making enough profit to please the owners and shareholders of your company - else you've been the appointed CEO for the longest time

In general, that means short routes like GOBLIN have a high level of detail (product of route length x assets).

JT, as a 3rd party, are having more freedom and are not depending on immediate revenue from TSW. They can release their route when it's done. DTG and 2nd parties are under much more pressure to constantly fulfil contracts. Skyhook stepped back from route and loco building, TSW is not their main source of income. But remember JustTrains' TSC MML network was also released in full priced sections. (They're now offering a complete 70 pounds MML bundle)

Same with SimTrack, which is likely a very small team doing it as a hobby, having other jobs. Else they'd be bankrupt already.

It's all economics.

What would you say if your boss came to you and said "We'll double the amount of work for you but the product will be sold at the same price - so please your customers and work for free as the modders do." That's ridiculous. People have families to feed, and making train sim products has made nobody a millionaire. In fact, it's getting worse and more difficult to make a living from that.

The whole IT scene is facing its biggest crisis ever, if you believe the words of two top rank ex-Google employees who left the company to warn the public about the consequences of AI.

Modders can do their magic because they have other jobs to pay their bills.

It's a bit ironic, looking at the three new routes. They have massively increased the details if you look closely, even off track - to please us, but now they're facing serious performance issues. The TSW engine has met its limits. WCML has regular perf spikes with audio dropping out, not only on Xbox. Frankfurt has scenery modelled you'll never see from the driver's view (I made a comparison, the textures used for Frankfurt scenery are much higher resolution in TSC though). The TSC Portsmouth Direct Line (Waterloo) was the same - highly detailed - too high. It didn't perform well, but it still looks fantastic.

There is that project of whole London by incrediblehannes - a nice demo, but not usable for the game. Maybe Hannes can port that to UE5 and make a separate London-based FPS game out of it. Still the rule is: only model what the player can see.

 

It probably won't, only the training centre 323 has the new suspension which was released for TSW4.

 

Yes, thanks for the economics lesson. Everyone understands why they do it: because long routes are hard, and the shorter routes still sell well enough. But just because corner-cutting and minimum effort business practices are common, and even rational/efficient from a financial perspective, doesn't mean that consumers are not allowed to complain.

However, routes which are longer and/or self-contained are generally held up as the gold standard (SEHS, BML, etc...). So they are capable of doing it. And if the train sim market were a bit bigger, and there was more competition, I'm willing to bet that we'd see developers making the investment of producing longer routes to gain a reputation of delivering premium products (as you see in e.g. the flight sim space, with a big range of ad-on quality, and the best able to charge large amounts). Unfortunately, the train sim market is quite small, there isn't a lot of competition, and most of us buy most of the routes we're interested in even if we grumble (because, again, there isn't much competition).

 

In fact many many complained about it not going to Sheffield or South to Bedford. Me included.