Routes Without New Rolling Stock: A No-go?

With the recent discussions about the Manchester Airport route by Alan Thompson and the speculations about the Pfälzische Ludwigsbahn by DTG, the thought about routes with no new rolling stock is a new concern within the community.

While having new rolling stock per route is seen as a requirement for new DLCs by some people and the habit of DTG and third parties to provide one for new routes in the past, demanding a new loco per route also could mean the risk to get a new route into Train Sim World, either because the route itself does not offer rolling stock in real life which is new to TSW or the developer (mainly focused on third party) has not the ressources, capacities or knowledge to build them on their own.

For both cases and to make the project happen, they're using rolling stock which is already in game.

Now on the other hand, the financial outcome of a project also has to even out the costs and efforts creating it. And these efforts and costs might be even high, even if no new loco has been buil for it, because maybe it all went therefore to enhance the scenery to perfectionsm or providing other overwhelming gameplay elements like an astonishing complex timetable or more scenarios than usual.

How are your feelings about this?

Do you think it is okay to reuse rolling stock for new routes?
Is it okay to keep the price for a route DLC equal to regular one, when the balance of quality is better for other criterias of the route?
Is it a No-Go for you to pay a DLC of the same price as a regular?

 

If the trains run there, why not. I think the eventually there's going to be a point where they have to reuse rolling stock if all the trains have been made already either in other routes or as loco dlc

 

IMO only acceptable if there is no new stock to create.

 

If we have a train that runs on that route in reality already in TSW, it doesn't make sense not to include it.

 

I'd like to point out Dresden to Riesa had no new stock at launch and that is regarded as one of the best DE routes in the game. To me it doesn't really matter as long as the route is ace. The Class 323 isn't something I particularly enjoy driving as much but it's still getting new content like guard mode and suspension to make up for it on ATS's new route. It really depends on a lot of variables.

I don't expect ATS's new route to be anything less than the usual route price and i'm content with that as long as the route itself is well made.

 

Without new rolling stock, we'd eventually struggle for new Scottish routes, and where would we be without them?

 

I would be okay with it in certain circumstances. For example, I think Dover would be good route:

But the class 375 and 395 already exist and DTG won't do anything that isn't modern, so there's not really any other rolling stock that could be included in the route. I would pay full price just for the interesting scenery, regardless of whether it comes with new rolling stock or not.

For an average route though with no particularly interesting elements, I would probably avoid it, even at a lower price.

I think routes should come with new rolling stock by default, unless there is something particularly interesting about the route to make up for it, or it is a lot cheaper

 

Well DRA gave the 143 a HUGE upgrade over the old RSN variant.

Older vehicles are fine in new routes, IF they are updated to the standards (or better) of new vehicles.

 

Well as I mentioned in the ATS thread I would have taken a route that made use of one or more of the under utilised BR Classic Diesels, such as the 20, 31, 33 or 52. However if the route is piggybacking on existing trains I would expect the price to be lower - £25 for a longish main line or £20 for a short commuter line like the ATS one is. Voted acoordingly.

Where a grey area occurs is whether the train DLC (or a route that includes it) has to be owned as a prerequisite or whether the train is included with the route as part of the package. So although the developer hasn't incurred the cost of making the loco or unit, you are still maybe getting a train that would otherwise have cost £12 as a DLC.

 

Do you therefore believe that if a loco that was only recently released gets reused (so that there isn't really anything to change on it) that the route should not be made (such as the Glossop Line)?

Just checking, no threats intended.

 

I don’t mind if the existing stock used is appropriate for the route in question, as in Manchester Airport. In this example the 323 is a really decent unit so that helps - if it was a new route with no original stock that used the 150 for example, then that would be a much harder sell.

 

Think it depends on whether or not anything new was done with the stock.

For example we have 2 versions of the MP36, but the Metrolink one is alot newer and worth being a reused loco for a route, because it's technically not a new loco.

 

I doesn't matter to me. We have the southeastern routes that are likely to get extended at some point. If they did dover (as mentioned) or the Chatham mainline etc, no new trains are needed.
Even if they did London Bridge via Abbey Wood and didn't include the 376. I would still buy it.

 

I think that the future of TSW in this situation where the route trains are already existing, would be to have a route built during the renewal of the equipment, by putting a timetable with the "new" trains already present, and a new train “old” (or the other way around)

 

Depends really if the reused stock is updated like what was done with the class 47 and 08 in BPO by JT I would have no issues. If it didn't get changed and had issues like it did in NTP I would complain like hell and not buy the route.

 

In my opinion, I'd like to see a few more newer routes without any new rolling stock because TSW already has a lot of great rolling stock already, plus some are already not used nearly enough anyway. For example, I'd love to see more routes and mileage if it means a lot more dedicated DB BR 101, DB BR 218, DB BR 628, Class 465 or Class 700 services etc.

Plus, think about it logically too. There's a lot of iconic routes in the real world, why can't they be featured in TSW if the main rolling stock already exists in-game?

Finally, one last argument is if a route already features rolling stock that already exists in TSW, surely that's a win-win? I'd rather have busier routes with lots of existing and variety of rolling stock than just one new train with an empty timetable.

 

If the stock runs on the route and there aren't any huge gaping holes in the timetable due to an important train being missing, then I don't mind if it solely re-uses stock. It doesn't happen that often so I don't see what the issue is. If it started happening with nearly every add-on and we rarely got new trains to drive then that would be a different matter.

This is ATS's first route so I wouldn't have expected a new train with it. They have explained the why's and wherefores.

 

It's not a no-go, no, but it's better to avoid it.

Glossop Line was a fine example of it. It brought Manchester and Northern to the game, reusing the 323 - a short 'filler' route in the release schedule which offered something new.

The Manchester Airport one, if it were a DTG route, would not be a good example.

But, as it's an ATS product (more to the point - their first one), it's fine. Let them get up to speed and then go from there.


As someone mentioned previously, you'd quickly run out of new ScotRail routes if you followed this rule - the same is probably true for a large portion of the Southeastern and Southern networks.

I think DTG's 'rule' of one new train / release is fine, though. It gives you something new virtually every time, keeps it balanced from route to route, and means routes are more than just new track for existing trains.

If we get to a stage of that being the case, though, then I'd think we can consider TSW in a premature state of death.

 

I couldn't care less. Using the new ATS route as an example for this, I couldn't care less about the route not including new rolling, aslong as the rolling stock being reused is appropriate for the line.

There is a small exception, if there are older and newer variants of a particular type of rolling stock being used on a route, then always reuse the newer variant (like how the East Coast way used an older model of the 377, where as Brighton Mainline used a updated variation with better sounds, small changes, and updated PIS destination boards)

 

I´d be okay with it, if there was more Loco DLC packs like in the past and new routes without rolling stock would utilize them.

 

There is only so much new rolling stock in existence for them to create so if a route can be made with existing rolling stock then I don't see a problem with that.

 

Dresden Riesa is a great route, but it was also a bundled package part of the Rush Hour offering which included Boston Providence and the Brighton Mainline, two very highly anticipated and well done routes. It would be interesting to see the percentage break down between the amount of people who bought it individually vs the package itself.


This brings us to the question of what is considered good value. Someone who started playing this game late (ie. TSW5 being their first purchase), the Manchester Airport route would be a very appealing DLC for them since they don't own Cross City or the Glossop Line. From what I've personally seen, this route seems like a much better route than the Glossop, and if I had a choice, I would certainly pick it over that. However, as someone who owns both of those routes already, this route is solidly locked in as a discount only purchase.


I can only speak for myself, as I don't know how the rest of their customer base spends their money, but there is this dilemma where they are losing customers who would normally purchase routes on day 1 because of no new stock, when this could have been entirely avoided by going with something like a 331 which is something we haven't seen in the game yet and also runs along the route they are doing.

 

Doesn't matter to me either way.

If a route is good, it's good. Or, to put it another way, adding 6 crappy trains to a route won't make it better than it was before.

I'd hope they'd make improvements to existing stock, where appropriate.

 

I don't mind if it doesn't have any new locos. However, it would be nice to see different variants of locos included if it were possible. (E.g a class 377 with different headlight clusters)

 

For me not having at least a new freight wagon or a new loco its just a nogo.

In theory im totally fine with a longer route or some more branchlines instead of rolling stock. Or a very ultra rich timetable.

But unfurtunately i know DTG too well. "Better quality" is a wasted discussion and pure philosophy.
For the price increase of 15 bucks backthen there wasnt constant good quality either. Yes some dlcs were good, but others just cant even come up to the bare minimum standard. Bugs and missing scenery (speedsigns) allover and never getting fixed.
With Tsw5 i had proof dtg wants to drop the german brake system feature (pgr) too, which crossed my line for even going with Tsw.

Since ill buy 99% only on heavy sale, i dont care. My time as "loyal" customer are over anyway.

 

Don't really care, but.......my only concern is if a route is release with no new loco and we then get a new loco DLC pack a month later, helping to push up income.

New loco route and new loco DLC, again, no problem (like Fife).

 

A strange poll. Any normal person understands that new rolling stock cannot be released with each new route. The longer the franchise exists, the less new rolling stock we will receive in the future. We must be prepared for this and stop hysterics on this issue. After all, the number of possible routes will always be higher than the number of possible rolling stock that can be used on it. It is stupid to say that you will not purchase a new route just because it does not have new rolling stock! What remains important is the availability of the necessary (authentic) rolling stock on the route, even if it is not new.

 

Cant the hinted at older dostos be used on the Ludwigsbahn?

 

As others have said if it’s a train that already runs in that area I’m mostly fine with that, but where I have more of a problem is when it’s the same copy of a train used multiple times. Take the 146.2 for example, how many times has that loco been repackaged since MSB? If we’re gonna keep reusing the same loco why not give us another variant like the 146.1, a 377 with different headlight clusters and interiors or in future give us the 465/0 instead of reusing the /9?

I know there’s a lot that goes into deciding what trains to make but it just gets repetitive and boring after a while, you can have a good route but what’s the point if it comes with a train everybody’s sick of and missed opportunities for something new?

 

Having new stock doesn’t mean it will be good, or that the route will be good & we have a few examples of that in TSW.

I think that the vast majority of popular routes are usually made up of mostly reused rolling stock.

It’s not that I don’t get excited for a new train, admittedly it’s usually the first thing I look at when a new DLC is announced, but there is little point in new trains that have little gameplay. The best example I have for this is MML. It’s not a question of quality (anymore), but the route has very little scope & makes it hard to enjoy what are 2 relatively great trains.

That also leads me to my next point, we have so many great trains in TSW, but very little to do with most of them. We need things like the 166, 465, 218, DBAG101, EMT HST etc to have headline experiences. Not just one route wonders, or odd layers that have little impact as a first person experience.

So yeah, I don’t care overall. There’s more to a route in TSW than the new train it came with. if FTF only had the ICE-T then I don’t think it would be a very popular route, whereas had it released with all the existing layers & no ICE-T, it would probably just see suggestions asking for it to be a loco DLC.

Of course there is also the point that eventually you will just run out of trains to add.

 

If it's a common-sense and much requested add-on then I'm fine with it. For example, if we got the much requested Kings Cross to Peterborough main line DTG could easily fill it with existing traction and it would be fine. Classes 313, 387, 700, IET and HSTs would set it in a period before 717s were introduced. Obviously a 91 Mk4 DVT set, a 365 and a 717 would be brilliant but this DLC could release without new traction and there would be few complaints.Perhaps with the Class 91 packaged with a deluxe version or a later add-on would also be okay for me.

The Glossop Line was at the other end of the scale. More AI at the Manchester end and perhaps a Class 305 to represent older traction on the line would have made this far better. Not a route I've played more than once despite the 323 being a nice train to drive.

 

I voted for only if the price is lower. Even if it's just a couple of quid, that'll do me.

Would it be nice to have a new Loco/Multiple Unit with every release? Yeah, but if it's a route that a previously released Loco/Multiple Unit is the main form of traction on than it's not a deal breaker for me.

 

Actually I wouldn't mind if there is no "new" rolling stock on a new route. So my priorities would be:
1) Interesting route (what ever that means depends )
2) Outstanding quality (Foliage, minor Bugs, acurate signals, acurate landmarks, explorable areas)
3) Interesting and acurate locos

 

Not having new rolling stock with a new route is ok for me, as long as the signaling and scenery are bug-free and well made (same level of detail as the Suffragette Line or Blackpool-Preston).

 

I would prefer new rolling stock, but any cheap DLC is a must considering the prices compared to the TSW 2020 / 2 era.
Especially when you consider layers are possible… meaning you can reuse old stock and gives us new stock, but sadly this is DTG… -_- so we can all drive 66’s and 377’s.

 

If it's a highly requested route, or one that would be well received (ACL/380, WCML north/390, new MML section/HST/158 etc), and is of good enough quality, then I don't see why not

 

I can think of some very good trains which I would love to see released again with a new route. The 166, 380 and 465 being three of them.

 

Can't really understand why this would be an issue in the first place.
I mean, red dostos with a BR146 in the other end probably runs all across Germany, and we have both in game already.
So if it's a route that uses them in real life ...

My only problem here is that there is no plain "Yes" vote for me to cast in this poll.
The ones that say Yes are linked to either greater quality than normal or a lower price.
The "I don't care" alternative sounds like I don't care about the question at all. So:
Is it okay to create new routes without new rolling stock? Yes!

 

The only option in the poll that reflects my views that it is okay for a route to only use existing trains and doesn’t require a “but only if…” condition attached is “I don’t care” but that would give the impression that I don’t care when I do care quite a bit, so yet another poll that doesn’t have an option I can choose. There really should be an option to answer the question with a simple yes.

A route that only uses existing trains is fine and does not have to be significantly better quality or cheaper than a route that has a new train. It just has to be something I’m interested in having and will be judged on what it offers as a whole, nothing more and nothing less.

 

Which is why DTG and the associates need a more coherent route DLC plan, rather than just jumping from one isolated stretch of line to another. By now SHG should be announcing MML 2.0, adding the section from Derby to Sheffield or maybe down towards Bedford from Leicester. Or for something different across from Grantham to Skegness. The first two options would give a much better run with the excellent VP185 HST. Rivet, for all its flaws, should have been pushing further east towards Plymouth and maybe adding the rest of the branches to WCL. But instead we get these one shot, quickly forgotten stretches of route that are quickly forgotten by the project planners.

 

Totally agree OldVern .
The only areas that are slowly becoming a network is around Manchester and Lancashire, Brighton and also the middle belt of Scotland.
Everything else seems to be a bit random. I would be happy for them to perhaps slowly build networks in a particular area of each of the BR Regions rather than focus on one area though (see my many rants about TSW5 bringing 3 more LMR routes).

But yes, just random little patches of coverage across Britain seems really uncoordinated. There's currently no ability to travel across an interesting part of the country using 2 or 3 different routes (Milton Keynes to Eastbourne with a bit missing in West London seems to be the closest to a long continuous journey in TSW using multiple routes).

 

Thanks for the constructive feedback.

The poll now has a "Yes. If I like the route, I will buy it." option added.

I thought about to include it initially, but I thought the feedback would not be in this regard. That's why I missed it in the first place.

Users who already casted a vote, should be able to change it.

 

Cheers, have voted for that one now.

 

I would prefer new rolling stock as we are missing alot and the rate of new stock getting added is rather slow. Im fine with re-used stock when its appropriate. My preferred option if they are re-using stock is making different subclasses. if we ever see southern or southeastern with no new stock I would love some more electrostar variants to use or different liveries for other stock. Re-using old stock with no changes/minimal changes should be the last resort. Even the ATS route could use with a 331/195 (all tho the reason why they are absent is fair)

 

If we ever get more electrostars can we please get more sub-variants

I would really like to see the other light cluster variant, the 3 coach /3 for East Coastway mainly and the 5 car /7 to supplement onto the WCML and BML. However I mainly want to see the lights

 

How about a route with no route

 

"We are proud to announce the Somerset and Dorset Railway set in 2002 is coming to TSW. Instead of driving the train, you can walk over where the tracks once were."

 

Isn't that what the Training Centre is? You can't really go anywhere on it, but it is still great to drive in.

 

If you own holiday express you can get the full off road experience.

 

For a specific route like an airport or docks or something that would have a specific car or unit yes

But that usually seems covered by a livery not a whole new model

Theres plenty of rolling stock to spread across routes i feel

Not to mention it seems that most people just play high speed elec commuters anyway......(shots fired)


just get some liveries and its all good