Why Is The Heavy Freight Being Forgotten?

The "Santa Fe" Gameplay pack is supposed to be a 1990's era pack. The F7 fits nowhere into that catagory.

I speculated what it should include here....
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...k-speculations-predictions.81454/#post-841596

 

There was an excellent TSW3 mod- made obsolete and never updated sadly - which gave the Santa Fe F7 a consist of Clinchfield rolling stock reskinned (very well) in old Santa Fe livery. Not only did it look great, but the consist weight was now realistic for what an F7 lashup could drag over Cajon, rather than expecting one to so a GEVO's job.

However, my understanding is that the gameplay pack will be set later, just before the Burlington merger, and use some combo of SD-40s, C40-8s and maybe AC4400s.

 

ATSF never owned AC44's only Dash 9's.

 

Ah. Hence the "maybe"....?

 

Yeah, that mod was great. But my issue was that all the other trains around you were still modern BNSF stuff, so your old Santa Fe style train still looked really out of place.

True, but still fits into it better than it does into the modern BNFS timetable we have now. At least it would be around trains with similar branding and paintjobs. Though it's possible that the Santa Fe pack won't include the F7, but still, it will be something retro which I am always happy to see.

 

C44d9w s are similar to ac4400 cw just dont have AC traction motors ..they could use c40 8 w too think santa fe had some in warbonnet..

 

they could do blue and yellow santa fe SD40 2 and GP38 2 ..i doubt they would do any new loco s like a GP60M B40 8w SD75 etc but a GP60M would prob help make the pak more successful in sales if its decenly done ..but still think they will just re skins etc of existing TSW stuff ..but who knows be nice to be pleasantly surprised

 

ATSF only had like 11 GP38-2's which they acquired from another railroad.

Only locos that would be applicable that are close to the GP38-2 would be either the GP38u or GP39-2.

 

i didnt know they had that small of a GP38 2 roster

 

What does "heavy freight" mean to you?
Do you include freight on UK/German routes?
They have been working quite a bit on Vectron-pulled freight on Frankfurt for example, and there is 66 freight on WCML.
So the German/UK freight is still being worked on.

It you mean North American freight... there's already a thread about that in specific.
It's just not clear in the OP that this was a separate discussion or the same one on a new thread.

To be honest, while the 66 isn't bad I wouldn't call it "heavy freight" on UK routes being mostly single pulls, and I don't include the German stuff myself because I prefer diesel traction.

However, everyone has different perspectives.

 

I played the TSW 2 US Route (forget what it is called) twice. Would have been around the time it was released and never touched it since. Variety is the spice of life and all that and more power to you if you enjoy it but it was the most tediously boring driving experience I could imagine. I'm no train buff, I have no idea what the sounds should be or what the route should look like so that was irrelvent to me.

I'm the most casual of casual player, I wouldn't like to speak on behalf of anyone else but it wouldn't surprise me at all if US Freight didn't sell well because (and only my opinion) it is the driving equivalent of watching paint dry.

 

Would be Great to see a Tehachapi Route that you can route hop between antelope valley and cajon

 

Tehachapi is mostly A-B runs with a notch 8 slugfest on each end, with some flat running near Bakersfield and Mojave. Only way it would be interesting would be the addition of locals at Edison, Monolith, and the Branchlines to a cement plant west of Mojave and the interchange with the Trona Railroad.

Also the route wouldn't connect with AVL, which ends in Landcaster.

 

I think the key to a successful US freight route is industrial services, pickups and dropoffs. What people are finding tedious I think is nonstop A-B runs, whether slow or fast (Sherman Hill is a fairly fast route). That's why I still think Clinchfield is the best US freight route to date, and if some fairly minor flaws were corrected it would be stellar- but I get that some people don't like mountains, and others don't like vintage.

 

But then you "potentially" run into the part that it wont sell because its not a well known area or railroad, something that IMO, partially hurt CRR, because it wasn't one of the well known Class 1 railroads.

Though on the side note, I think DTG should revisit that old plan of the Canadian National Ore trains, that could of been interesting, since the old DMIR lines still see regular freight, on top of the ore operations.

 

Marias Pass would be a great route to do if it weren't for the length, really good variety in scenery and track profile, and it has plenty of yards and industries. Unfortunately unless some third parties want to do it and are willing to sink in a year or two of development I can't imagine that ever coming without being massively cut down.

 

Kind of like how Frankfurt is pretty but boring as hell?
*shrugs*
To each their own.

 

Yes, freight without any pickup/drop offs is just like passenger routes that don't have any passenger stops.

 

It's worth another try, with alot of effort, variety of tasks and side industries, I think it might just be able to pull people in. Frankly, it's better than just never attempting US freight again.

 

This and pitch the price right, particularly if using existing or reskinned locos.

 

Three things:

1- I still say project polls and preorders are the way to go for these sorts of projects. Something to show actual interest by a large number of people that makes the investment worth it and less of a gamble.

2- In addition, something like "enhancement packs" with more involved scenarios (and not just more of the same A-B) would be a less intensive test bed for DTG or a third party developer.

They don't have to be super complicated, but even something like adding a "weekly round up run" to an existing route. Just go down the route, collecting empties or dropping off freight cars on specific sidings. More complicated would be a combination of both.

I don't think they have the same level of detail that others like Railroader does with specific car numbers to select, but I know from Oakville and WSR that they can identify cars to move by highlighting them.

There's a lot of existing possibilities on the routes we have that just isn't being used. Empty sidings all over. A ton of lost opportunities.

While "new" stuff is nice..."new" that doesn't expand the gameplay beyond the narrow scope that exists isn't really an improvement...just more of the same.

3- Is there an "end goal" beyond just the trip itself? I know there's XP earned, but that doesn't really DO anything. Maybe some freight-specific goals on freight maps instead of just mileage? Deliver 100 coal cars or service this destination 10 times, etc?

Or maybe meaningless bling/decorations you can "spend" in-game xp/cash on? I know you can't build tracks, there's nothing to "unlock" it's just unrelated trips on the same map from A-B at present which on some maps can be relaxing just for the drive itself, but does anyone want anything more?

At present I can do that on a couple other games, but people that don't have PC don't really have anything else. *shrugs*

Anyway, like I said... freight at present is just A-B like a passenger run without any stops. It just feels incompete. It's just PART of an actual freight run, so no matter how cool the engines look or sound, it's still not "immersive" in that way. If the passenger folks can complain about the passengers not being "realistic" enough... well freight is far behind that. There's not even any multiple stops for those. It's like a "passenger run" that has no stops, let alone no door opening or passengers.

It's just woefully incomplete... but has so much possibility.
It's like having it 90% there and then.... be out of reach.

 

Because passenger routes and whizzy trains sell better. Simple as that. Same with steam.

 

Speaking of heavy freight: the TSC Woodhead Line route was always very interesting. Massive coal hauls using a unique 1500v DC electrified line and the Class 76 and 77 locomotives.

 

All this is absolutely true. I remember a person on this forum who had identified all the sidings and industries on the roads already available and it is obvious that there is a way to add local type tasks.

Also, if you have tried Toronto Commuter 2024 Timetable Enhancement Pack V1.2 , there is an Aldershot Turn task that seems very realistic to me and that perfectly represents the type of activity that should be on a freight route.

 

Then why does it apparently do so much better in TSC? More likely there are other causes...

 

Absolutely dude, 100% agree with this. There's way too many add-ons right now on the store page that are way more expensive than they actually should be.

 

On my post, I was referring to both issues.
First I mentioned about US freights and then compares about the time required to drive them.

 

The truth is that most of the population lives in urban areas and sees commuter trains more. People tend to enjoy things they are familiar with. Especially true with console players, who are at least 80% of the TSW playerbase.
There's only so many rural people who grew up around freight trains.
I'd suspect the playerbase is related in some fashion to the representation of content in the game too, but that I'm not so sure about (so you'd see UK/German players more often and they'd be more focused again on urban/suburban areas as European rail is a lot more passenger focused)

 

Does it take more time to drive them?
Seems to be similar given that passenger stops are more often so they both take quite a while to complete.
Maybe you mean it feels to you to take longer because you don't enjoy it? The constant starting and stopping in passenger routes and sitting around the platform waiting is quite boring for me too since I don't really enjoy it.

 

Different player base I think. The freight people migrated to there (or stayed there instead of going to TSW) in large part, meaning the player bases are skewed. If you have players demanding something on your platform, you tend to fill that demand, which means more people with similar taste keep coming... it becomes a loop. Freight is on TSC because more freight players are there.

 

Why is it more true for console players than others? What's your source on that? And what is the source on the 80%? The last "official" number we got was around 66% from Sam back in the day.

 

I don't recall what thread. It was roughly 80% being console sales vs steam sales. (Not sure if it was number of sales or total amount of sales) Now some players might have both of course, but it makes sense because TSW was launched with the intent to bring console players into sim rail games since they couldn't play basically anything else.

As for console players, it's just a hunch based on social trends. Console players tend to be younger, more mobile and urban. PC players tend to be more older, "stationary", established, and in some cases more disposable income (generally going with the being older) It's just based on trends, not an absolute or anything. However, given that younger people tend to play consoles, are more urban, and people tend to be familiar with their "era".... then it just makes sense that young people on console would want modern, urban rolling stock.

On average.

There are always exceptions, but a game made for console players is going to attract more console players by it's very nature.
The PC players are going to populate the PC only games too, and in lesser numbers because they have other options.
When you have basically ONE "rail sim" on console (TSW).... then where else are console players going to go?
Meanwhile PC players can split their numbers even further away from TSW into any of up to a dozen other "sims" and "near sims."

Summary: That's why it doesn't surprise me that there are so few hard core freight fans on TSW. Nor does it surprise me that the marketing and sales cater to young, urban commuter players on consoles.

It just makes sense.

It's not right or wrong, good or bad... it just is.

 

I have never believed the idea that people who buy train sims are mainly interested in stuff they know, and I've never seen any evidence.

 

Okay.
That's a fine belief.
Let's test it.
So DTG is making mostly urban passenger routes because there's a huge market of rural freight that they don't want to spend their money?
Seems illogical.
Or we just believe when DTG people say that urban/suburban passenger routes sell better so that's why they make them.
Which makes more sense.

You are free to believe what you want of course.
However, that should be followed by an examination of why what you think should be the case, and why real observations don't fit that model. You would presumably have to explain why DTG is working against their own interests in that case.

 

I don't think there's going to be any evidence for it unless someone makes a survey or poll at some point.

However, it does actually make sorta sense. German train simmers tend to stick with German routes, Scandinavian Railfans tend to request for Scandinavian routes quite alot. Same goes for American train simmers often going for American routes.
Obviously, this isn't a 100% must case and people do eventually explore other countries. But, in general it's a trend that does make logical sense when you think about it.
I mean hypothetically, why would someone, who had no prior knowledge or interest In older trains suddenly decide to pick up a Penn Central route?
Of course, you will have quite a few people just jumping in, seeing something they like, buy it and then enjoy it.

Me personally, I picked up TSW and only played German routes and trains because it was the most familiar thing for me. Later on, I began to explore other routes from other countries.

However, then again, this would likely mean nothing to you as it isn't conclusive evidence.

 

Matt's been pretty clear on the reasons for back-seating freight, and it's not sales.

Regarding familiarity, I'm sure that's a big factor, but I'm sure the novelty of something new is as well. Giant locomotives pulling giant trains is familiar to me, and I love getting to drive them myself. But I also enjoy the completely unfamiliar experience of driving a European train at 300 kph, which has no parallel here.

 

For starters, you assume that the cost of production of all routes is identical.

DTG has never displayed the slightest compunction about rushing out shoddy workmanship if they think it'll make them money.

 

I never said all routes were identical.

 

I believe you are misunderstanding my point. I didn't say you said all routes are identical.

 

Would be cool to see it like the old MSTS version that connected to Barstow so you can inlcude trona interchange and route hop to cajon. They could also add both BNSF and UP yards and a lot of switching and industries around bakersfield including the SJVR. That would add a lot of stuff to that route other than A-B Hill running

 

Would DTG even put in the effort to do that though? Mojave to Barstow is about 70 miles, which is the length of a new route alone, on top of the lines branches for the Borax mine and Edwards AFB.

And the SJVR is a no go, their main locos these days are KLW locos, which DTG would probably never get access to. Not to mention the SJVR is owned by the G&W, which I believe Matt stated are a no go.....

This is why I still believe the Orange County Line/Pacific Surfliner line between LA and Oceanside is still the best "West Coast" option for Freight ATM. Most of that line between Redondo Junction and Fullerton is BNSF Mainline shared with Metrolink and Pacific Surfliner. There is at least 2-3 BNSF yards in that stretch, on top of multiple rail served industries on the line.

Passenger fans still get their Commuter and Intercity rail route, while freight fans at least get some more mainline action (More than AVL or SBL) on top of various industries and yards.

 

I got into TSW on console for US freight tsw 2 Sand Patch ,at that time i thought cool a train sim game that has US freight routes..did passenger too ..at first i ignored the UK German content but eventualy warmed up to playing it.i alsolike playing freight trains on those routes ..the UK routes could use more freight also at least DTG has upped the ante with the cargo.paks which i have purchased ..They need to consider looking into doing stuff like this for US freight too .The German routes have the best balance of passenger and freight services i think US needs more balance that means doing routes that have a good mix of passenger and freight not all major US cities have a huge commuter passenger operation. I live near a major southeastern US city 6 plus million and growing passenger trains are not much just the Amtrak Crescent each day and a heavy rail transit system called MARTA and their elevated right of way along CSX NS freight lines

 

It was Oakville for me back in TSW2020 days before SPG finally came to consoles. I didn’t get into (my native) German content until some time later.

 

I first saw SPG on pc and thought then that would be great if they could bring TSW SPG to consoles . I was told a bit later that its coming to consoles soon ,As soon as i it did instant buy

 

Same for me. I saw SPG for PC and really wanted to have that, but it wasn't available on consoles at the time. When Oakville came out, that was appealing enough for me to try TSW out, and I was overjoyed when SPG finally made the jump later.

 

While I see that everyone remains passionate about trucking, the future of heavy-duty trucking in the United States is full of uncertainty, but I remain confident that we will turn things around.

 

Trucking, does that not involve a road? I may have got the wrong end of the stick here, but I feel like you have got the wrong end of the stick.

 

Do you think this has something to do with the really short length and absent passenger services compared to tsc?

 

Yes!
Due to they are really heavy, due to its length and total weight.
They usually have 3 ,4 (or even more) big 6 axle diesel locomotives at front!.
But also most of the times it also have "distributed power", with some locomotives at the back end too!.

Of course another important issue to consider, is if if you are driving on a flat route, or you have some hills or even mountains to climb.

For example the first ever route of TSW was CSX Sand Patch grade.
If you are going downhill it will be faster. But if you have to climb the grade, it will requires much more time..

 

Furthermore, please notice I have most of the US freight routes:
Sand Patch Grade (CSX) as mentioned, but also Sherman Hil (UP), Cajon Pass (BNSF), and Horseshoe Curve (NS).

Also you can drive some freights on Sand Bernardino line (BNSF), or Antelope Line (UP) too.