Please Take Time To Write Suggestions!!

Hey Everyone, this might Sound a Little Angry, but anyway;
To those people only writing: “I want Route whatever“ and then ending the suggestion, stop that nonsense. You really think someone from Dovetail is gonna read that and say: „Oh, we only know the route name and that you like it. Let’s do that route.“ No, Literally no one wants to read that. Especially that one guy with the db 1440 in his Profile picture, I’m sure you’ve seen one of his threads. Ok, now that I’m finished, here’s

How to improve your Suggestions:
-Give atleast some Kind of Information about Route length, trains, famous landmarks etc.
-Provide some Pictures of trains and/or the route.
And if that’s too much effort for you to possibly get your dream route, then just read suggestions and don’t write any.

Thank you for reading this and have a great day

 

This 100%... I was thinking the same the other day. No developer ever has read a post "I want this route" and thought: "oh okay, I´ll start building it right now".

 

The only merit I could see is that DTG would know that there is anticipation for the route. Having a more detailed suggestion would help DTG fill the other bits of LAMPOIL, though.

I'm on the fence. I do understand that having higher quality suggestions is better (and they read more professional), but the amount of research and English required might mean fewer suggestions are made, possibly affecting the anticipation part.

 

most suggestions border on the impossible, requiring discovery of new territory, finding qualified developers who actually know their stuff, needing years of development and above all, those pesky licenses from overseas aren't easy to acquire.

 

In today's time with AI it's abolutely no problem at all to write your text in your native language and let it auto-translate it into english. As this is no scientific paper, a book or anything in that way, there is no harm in doing so.

 

Oh I didn't consider that. I always automatically discount AI and translation tools as an option. It isn't something I should do, but there has been enough negative press about AI that the positives get overshadowed. I'm still waiting for the AI hype to die down before accepting it fully.

That's the English barrier sorted then (as long as there is some clear indication that AI was used to help).

 

Can I also add that people need to look to see if a similar suggestion has been made before making their own. There are countless suggestions that are very much the same. Helps keep things tidier.

It is possible to post a suggestion the same time as someone else, but I'm seeing suggestions for the same route appear days apart. Is it really necessary?

 

Those are the ones that actually stand a chance beeing considered by DTG... if they see the same thing pop up over and over, they will do it. Same with ECML and WCML.

 

That's a thought, yeah. Didn't consider that.

 

This is probably true, but it begs the question of whether DTG consider the mood of the forums based on the number of posts made about a particular type of route, or if they consider what responses a suggestion gets.

Then again, those may not be mutually exclusive... Maybe they do both!

 

Actually, I asked this question for the July roadmap, about the Anticipation part of the LAMPOIL process in deciding new routes, and whether quantity of suggestion threads (i.e. lots of people making their own threads on a route) or quality (depth of conversation) was more important. Matt's answer was that they don't look at stats but do look at how much a thread is discussed and the detail on why a route is anticipated.

So on that basis, lots of little suggestion threads likely won't have the same impact as a megathread with lots of discussion and enthusiasm.

 

Well, there's the answer!

Well remembered - I thought I recalled something on the roadmap streams, but wasn't sure.

 

As a minimum, route or traction suggestions should be accompanied by a suitable Wikipedia link plus an attempt to evaluate against LAMPOIL.

Though IMHO some of the less structured or unlikely suggestions are partly down to DTG for not having a stickied guideline at the top of the sub. This should include a definition of LAMPOIL, which even I can’t recall off the top of my head each category plus a list of what is unlikely to be considered - steam traction or steam era routes and North American freight, which the latter still gets spammed regularly. Guidelines updated as necessary. The mods should also be merging multiple suggestions for the same item into one mega thread which, as noted, might stand out more than the same topic getting spammed every few days.

 

What is LAMPOIL? I’ve seen several mentions of this in this and other threads but nothing to indicate what it means.

 

LAMPOIL is the process of selecting routes or locos.

In the TSW4 July 2024 roadmap article were an elaborate explanation about it. Sorry if the formatting doesn't come well. Just did copy and paste it here.



Inside Development - How We Use Suggestions (LAMPOIL Explained)

In this month’s Inside Development, we wanted to take another chance to talk about how we use community suggestions within our development process, and how we go about choosing the routes that we develop, as it’s a question we often see players wanting more insight on.

Back in our April 2023 Roadmap, we gave a detailed explanation about the “LAMP” process from our Senior Producer Steve, which incorporated Licensing, Anticipation, Mix and Prominence into the selection process. Since that time, we’ve actually grown our acronym to “LAMPOIL”, which adds three new categories for us to consider: Opportunity, Intelligence, Limitation, which we’ll talk about in more detail.

Generally, when choosing a new route to develop, this begins with a proposal from either a staff member, or from community suggestions we’ve seen. We then take this idea through our LAMPOIL process to understand how viable and feasible the route will be for our teams to create, and to help determine if we should move forward with this idea.
So, here’s a breakdown for the full LAMPOIL process:

L - Licensing

Licensing covers our legal obligations and is a good starting point to answer questions such as whether we have licenses or agreements in place to ensure we can represent the route appropriately with the trains that are seen on the route in the real world, for the time period proposed? Do we need to consider additional licenses to bring in to develop the route? This then informs our Licensing and Contracts Team on where they need to focus their resources.

A - Anticipation

Anticipation is about how we expect the players to perceive the route, and the included content. This probably is the most subjective area of the evaluation as we’re essentially evaluating how well players will receive the route in its proposed form. We look closely at reviews and comments from similar routes we released previously, as well as any community thoughts and concerns raised on proposals from suggestions. We need to answer if players will find the content boring, or just a duplication of a previously released route? If there is strong support for a route, where is it in the hierarchy?

M - Mix

Mix looks at the gameplay element in greater detail. Is there enough gameplay provided in the route to keep players occupied and engaged? Does the value of the included content and gameplay align with the intended pricing? Does the gameplay volume align with previously released content? Are there any unique elements in the gameplay that we can leverage to improve the gameplay offering (new industry elements or interactive components that can enhance the experience)?

P - Prominence

Prominence looks at the global commercial appeal of the route – are the locations represented known globally or is the route known only to locals? Are there prominent landmarks which are required to properly represent the route? Do the included locos have appropriate appeal to the players? Is there any prominence to the locos (are they famous)? Routes that have greater global appeal and have strong landmark features, with trains that are likely to engage the players are more likely to move forward to approval.

O – Opportunity

Opportunity is the first of our new categories we’ve added to this definition, and it looks at the potential to alter the design of a proposed add-on to increase the appeal for players. This could be including a famous location, landmark, train, service or coach name. It could also look at the chances to create additional related add-ons, seasonal spin-offs or layers that may link to the route and the content included.

I – Intelligence
Intelligence refers to aligning a release with real world events that may elevate the add-on if completed by a specific milestone, such as birthdays and festivals, or released at a certain time of year. These can help support the add-on success by giving our Community, Marketing and PR teams areas to highlight, such as historic events or locations.

L – Limitation
The final area, Limitation, is our last check to understand if we need to consider anything that would work against us for creating a specific add-on. Outside of licensing issues with operators, we also need to consider legal constraints such as a copyright landmark where there may be a fee. We would also use this step as a chance to ensure there is sufficient relevant content to make the add-on feel alive, and if the scope of the project is something we’re able to support to give the best version of the add-on to players.

So that’s the full process as we have it now, I hope this insight helps you understand where your suggestions come into the picture and explain the challenges our teams face before picking the perfect route. Keep giving us your community suggestions for new add-ons, and make sure to submit these ideas to our Suggestion Forums.

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As Alex mentioned above, here is the original LAMP process explanation from the April 2023 roadmap article, by senior producer Steve.


Inside Development – How we pick our routes

It’s one of the questions we get asked all the time: How do we select the routes we develop within our games?

Well, it’s a pretty intricate process, and we’ve instilled Steve, one of our Senior Producers (and owner of the LAMP process – more on this below!), to provide the details.

Choosing a route is a particularly complex process and generally begins with an outline proposal, either from an internal (staff member) or external (community) source. It is particularly important for us to understand what it is we’re trying to achieve and that anything we proceed with is of value not just to us but to our players too. Understanding where a route fits in with the entire catalogue of content, whilst providing value and entertainment for players is critical. When we evaluate a proposal, we look at four major areas, what we refer to as the LAMP process: Licensing, Anticipation, Mix and Prominence.

L - Licensing
Licensing covers our legal obligations and answers questions such as do we have licenses or agreements in place to ensure we can represent the route appropriately with the trains that are seen on the route in the real world, for the time period proposed? Are there any additional licenses we need to bring in to develop the route? This then informs our Licensing and Contracts Team on where they need to focus their resources.

A - Anticipation
Anticipation is about how our players perceive the route, and the included content. This probably is the most subjective area of the evaluation as we’re essentially evaluating how well players will receive the route in its proposed form. We spend a great deal of time looking at the reviews and comments from similarly based routes that we released previously as well as any thoughts and concerns raised on any proposals that have been submitted by players. Are players going to find the content boring or just a duplication of a previously released route? If there is strong support for a route, where is it in the hierarchy?

M - Mix
Mix looks at the gameplay element in greater detail. Is there enough gameplay provided in the route to keep players occupied and engaged? Does the value of the included content and gameplay align with the intended pricing? Does the gameplay volume align with previously released content? Are there any unique elements in the gameplay that we can leverage to improve the gameplay offering (new industry elements or interactive components that can enhance the experience)?

P - Prominence
Prominence looks at the global commercial appeal of the route – are the locations represented known globally or is the route known only to locals? Are there prominent landmarks which are required to properly represent the route? Do the included locos have appropriate appeal to the players? Is there any prominence to the locos (are they famous)? Routes that have greater global appeal and have strong landmark features, with trains that are likely to engage the players are more likely to move forward to approval.
Once all the above areas are evaluated, we then use traffic lights to score each segment: Red – No Go. Yellow – Concerns. Green – Go. Recommendations are then made for any areas marked Red or Yellow and placed in a fifth section called Recommendations/Opportunities. Recommendations are those which highlight where the proposal can be modified to improve the overall score. Opportunities are those areas which enable us to “push the envelope” or raise the bar by adding additional content or including key elements not factored in the proposal such as a yard which could add switching/shunting opportunities or a key landmark which will help to improve global appeal.

As an example, on reviewing the proposal submitted for the Boston – Providence route, it was identified that a key aspect was required to maximise the route’s potential in terms of gameplay and prominence – this was of course Amtrak’s Acela®. We highlighted that it is more likely that Amtrak’s Acela® was perhaps known internationally due to tourism in New York, as well as nationally and locally, due to its prominence as America’s only High-Speed Train service. This was also cross-compared with proposals submitted by players who also confirmed to us it was a highly demanded train and we recommended it should be prioritised for development.

 

Robert has posted but this is exactly why it should be stickied at the top of the Suggestions sub forum. Sorry for ping dtg_jan but as I think you are the head forum “guru” would it be possible to place an appropriate Sticky in Suggestions detailing LAMPOIL.

 

We used to have a pinned thread on the suggestions thread to help people create better suggestions, but it got removed due to well reasons to say the least.

 

LAMPOIL when it comes to writing suggestions is a load of nonsense and doesn't achieve what a suggestion post is really for: Selling a route to people, which can drum up a bit of support and maybe, if you're lucky, show up on DTG's radar.

Here's why it doesn't work:

L - Licensing
You don't know this. You can take a guess based on what we have/don't have in game, but then it's not really a suggestion you want but more a pick from a list of options.

A - Anticipation
Again, you don't know this.
There's some obvious ones - WCML, ECML, NEC, etc. which will sell like hotcakes.

If you're interested in an obscure route, let's say the Newcastle - Carlisle Line, then you'll hardly know how many people want it.

The suggestion will actually help you find this out - don't make a suggestion of what is popular.

M - Mix
Okay, you can think of this one.

If you suggest a route from, say, Munich, you'll be able to look at the variety in trains around Munich, the ICEs, International Trains, RB, S-Bahn, etc.

This can be simplified to: Will the route be interesting for you? If yes, go ahead. If no, maybe pick another.

P - Prominence
This one solely serves Dovetail's marketing so they can focus on "iconic" features. The Union Pacific railroad is a famous one so it's quite easy for them to market.
The fame of a route, location, operator, whatever, doesn't impact it's quality as a route and you shouldn't really consider this, tbh. (If you do, it'll be subconsciously most likely, as you'll know the fame before you think of the suggestion.)


My suggestions emphasise the "here's why you should like it" aspect, rather than the "here's why Dovetail should make it."

A suggestion of an unheard route, with one like and two comments, focusing on LAMP isn't going to catch Dovetail's eye.

A suggestion with 30 likes, 15 comments or so probably could.

A suggestion with 100+ likes will, most likely.


So, what do I think about?
1. Interest/Fun/Variety
This is the 'mix' idea but more from a "will I get bored of the route?" perspective.

2. The Route
I like a route in the 30-50 mile range, with exception to a high-speed route or a network route.

I also tend to consider scenery - if it's visually appealing or not. Bernina Line is a good example of how scenery can do some heavy lifting for a route.

3. Trains
I tend to suggest a new train be included, but also aim to have reused/modified stock for maximum variety.

4. Timetable
Again, back to the mix, I tend to pick routes which have a busy yet varied and interesting timetable.

I don't follow this like a checklist, it's just things I think about.

I'll give a few examples:
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/schnellfahrstrecke-frankfurt-köln.85298/

1. Interest/Fun/Variety
The route is interesting/fun to me because I like ICE routes. I don't, however, like Kassel-Würzburg because it's quite dull, and too long for it's number of stations.

This route is of a similar length to KWG, but with more stations, and two huge stations at either end (Köln and Frankfurt, both in-game), as well as an offering of S-Bahn and Regional action at the Köln end.

2. The Route
It's long, but the type of long I like.

It would include Köln/Bonn Airport, giving variety in stopping patterns for Regional and S-Bahn services.

3. Trains
The trains are obvious. Stock exists for the Frankfurt and Köln ends, while the ICE offering is a bit more limited due to the route's gradient.

4. Timetable
In the suggestion I'd made up a little diagram of ICE Stopping patterns, so you can see the variety.

The S-Bahn services are the same as those on SKA - and (I forgot to mention this) SKA's ICE services go to/from Frankfurt, so this route ties in perfectly with that.

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/wcml-north-carlisle-glasgow-1980s.85790/

1. Interest/Fun/Variety
This route doubles as an InterCity / WCML route, with the long, open stretch between Carlisle and Carstairs, before turning into a bit of a chaotic suburban route north of Motherwell, with branches here, there, and everywhere.

2. The Route
The route is long, but the branch lines are compact while the open section is very sparse and don't spread out all that much. It's also a reduced version from today's lines, so it could be doable for a developer.

It also plays into the Preston - Carlisle route and would, with routehopping, make a run from Preston (or Blackpool) to Glasgow possible.

3. Trains
Bringing the 303 in as the new train, but making use of the 314, 101, and other existing BR Stock for a varied experience.

4. Timetable
Plenty of frequent suburban action, as well as the WCML - with some unique services from Carlisle to Coatbridge, bound for the north, which don't exist anymore.


I won't keep going, but you get the point.


Suggest what you want, not what you think Dovetail will want.
Disregard LAMP - just make a reasonably detailed suggestion, showing the route/loco to people but also explaining why you think it should be in the game.

Sell the people the route/loco you want to see, so to speak.

I'm intentionally ignoring my old Suggestions Guide, which I still get tagged with today, because it's outdated and I don't follow it anymore. I think it takes too much of an objective approach and doesn't really do the "but why this route?" bit well enough. Still works if you don't care about that side of things, though.

 

Thank you very much Matt for clarifying all of this

 

Or a RMB buffet car...

I'll get my coat!

 

I used to have a pinned thread in the suggestion parts that gave insight on what one should do for a suggestion, but then someone said something about it being a reason for other forum member using it to call out other posts and stuff, and now that thread is buried in the past....

 

Could do worse than post this as a sticky in the Suggestions sub-forum!

 

I like the idea of routes with branches rather than just linear routes, so like Blackpool branches and the Cardiff City network for example. A good one would be the South London Network as seen in TSC, then the new unit could be the Overground 378.

 

Or the LSE route in MSTS! Though IIRC it was a bit fudged in terms of gradients, when you eventually reached the Oxted Lines they were pretty much flat as opposed to the up and down gradients in reality.

 

Another thought from meownself, don’t always keep suggesting - or in the case of DTG themselves building - routes that already exist in TSC. Obviously there are exceptions and on paper at least the route comes with more than the handful of scenarios a TSC one does, but spread the wings a little. This new MBTA is a case in point. Already exists in TSC plus is twice the length of the TSW version going all the way to Springfield and set (to me) in a much more interesting era.

 

Yes I’d like to see more vintage US routes, I believe CR is the only one? If everything is done modern it tends to get a bit same after a while.

 

Another thing is when people do the opposite of a single sentence suggestion...or even use the title as the suggestion and the content is simply, "as the title suggests, I want this route," or something along those lines...and include a gigantic list of rolling stock separated by commas.

I see those, and get the same eye roll reaction of, "would be nice, but this is another of those 'I want everything' posts.'"

Nothing about gameplay, nothing about what makes the route appealing. Almost like it was taken from Wikipedia; the condensed lite version.

 

Or, the suggestion is super long and has the smallest of details included, to the point where you lose interest as it basically becomes a history of the route rather than a suggestion.

 

Can we get a list of licencsed carriers you have. I have a few thoughts for suggestions but I don't want to bother if there is no license in place.

 

But haven't you talked to a few that are a sure no go?

Pretty sure you mentioned awhile ago The Genesee and Wyoming, who own a lot of shortlines in the US, as well as railroads in other countries, were a no go.

 

I would be joyously amazed and very surprised if a JR license could be attained.

 

Not sure if Ongakukan have exclusive rights there, for their "Drive the video clip" games. Which are very good, but a tad limited and currently uninstalled here due to the massive HD footprint. Don't know whether Matt can confirm if this is the case.

Oh I get that Matt, in fact I'm positively salivating over the prospects for the 24 hour timetable on Shappie as opposed to the handful of scenarios we got on the TSC version.

 

Also, some of us (like me), have never played TSC and have no intention of playing TSC, so I wouldn't know what's already been done. As a TSW owner it's irrelevant to me whether or not it's been done before, and this will inevitably apply to other simmers out there.

 

Also, thinking about it, there are lines in TSC which would be absolute classics - regardless of era - if brought into TSW. Riviera Line for one, Exeter to Paignton along with a walkable sea wall. Woodhead mentioned in Suggestions fairly regularly too and North Wales Coast to name just two others. So I really must recant what I posted previously…

 

What I am getting here, is that only those with a university degree can submit a suggestion

The way Matt wants the suggestion to be written is like a university document, so those of us that do not have such degree are basically excluded

 

Say what?

 

You can of course post any suggestion you want. This is just about raising your chances. You must sell your idea.

Imagine you're presenting your route idea to DTG's boss. He is then asking you, "How can I be sure this is a good idea? The development will cost my company about £500,000. What makes you think it will sell well enough to cover the cost plus make profit? Convince me and I'll have my employees start on that project. The sole fact that you might want it is not enough for me to risk a financial failure."

 

The most useless thing is "suggestions or opinions" because they are unlikely to be adopted. So DTG, do whatever you want. If the DLC you develop suits my taste, I will buy it.

 

I

 

hows this for a suggestion
accurate detail with photos
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...engine-and-lbscr-compartment-carriages.86446/

 

That’s what I would call a really good suggestion, sounds really interesting

 

yes that does sound interesting

 

just hope DTG can get the SNCF licence back


definitely a good train dispite the duplex now replacing the class 373

 

some of my suggestions:
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...s-bahnhof-tulln-an-der-donau-st-polten.82813/
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/rex6-ostbahn.82609/
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...wolfsthal-the-rest-of-the-stammstrecke.82568/
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/rex8-marchegger-ostbahn.82607/

and most personal:
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/western-slovakia-triangle-bratislava-trnava-galanta.85935/

I am always taking special care to present the route and rolling stock and all in a compelling way, to what degree I am successful, you be the judge ... as a passenger, I am not particularly rich (but not destitute either ), so I use commuter/regional trains in almost all cases when I travel... and for me as a person and railfan, it would be immensely cool if I could drive one of those routes, and I am hoping others would find em nice and interesting too... I am lucky in the way that where I live, operate, or exist in general are areas with good and interesting railway coverage and nice rolling stock (plus making regular and frequent trips to Vienna where I can see some of my fav trains/locos/EMUs/DMUs)

 

It doesn't take a university degree to write a bit more, and more specifically, than "I want (X-route / X-loco) in the game."

The example is ridiculously simple, but there are many threads that read exactly like that. No reasons why it'd be cool, no explanation of what kind of dynamic route it would be, or what appealing points of the route are there to be had.

As a reader and an Average Joe player of TSW, who is familiar with and enthused by US and Japanese trains, only familiar with the routes rolling stock that I have experienced first hand or are nearby where I live...for example if someone suggests a route in Spain with such little explanation, I just think of whatever train they are suggesting, and a perfectly straight line through a grass field that runs for 130 kilometers. I, the consumer, haven't been sold on anything, even though I could be, and have no visual idea of what this route entails.

It doesn't need to be a 5 point parallel thesis statement either. Just an average thorough explanation for the average reader.