Excuse For Dtg Not To Produce Longer Routes.

Enough with the binary casual vs hardcore nonsense, I've seen enough of that in other games (WoW for one). I use keyboard and mouse for some things, controller for others, and will be happily playing both the modern WCMLS and WCML over Shap. Goblin is a great route, so is Blackpool branches.

Condescending, much?

 

I mean.. sure it's more handles, but it's not necessarily harder. After a couple of trips you just eventually learn how to use each one, just like you'd do for an EMU or whatever plasti-cab train.

Personally, the choice between keyboard vs Controller doesn't really matter since you can actually play with Keyboard and Controller simultaneously. So basically.. the comfort of a controller, and the flexibility of keybinds of a keyboard.

Pretty much proved his point too, you make it out to be a harder experience when it really isn't that hard.
On paper it's more things, but in game it's just a few little extra things to keep in mind.

Smh

 

i’d rather have 50 miles of interesting driving than 100 miles of bland scenery. not to mention that’d mean half the amount of dlc

 

i agree with a lot of your points above, but i’m wondering that if it’s not a case of choosing the easiest part, why was ecml from peterborough to doncaster, neither of which are regular termini, why does ecw only go to eastbourne and why does wcml only go as far as milton keynes? i mean this in the least confrontational way and i understand the challenges with longer routes, but im just not convinced that the idea of not making the ‘easy bit’ can be applied to every tsw route

 

And sufferers terribly in the scenery department in places, at least SBL and the MBTA route rectify these issues.

If the next DTG US route gets pushed back because of new areas, but still comes out as good as the last 2, then that's fine. Not like DTG has many areas to pick in the US for modern commuter routes.

I mean there is room for smaller DLCs, if DTG does them right. But unfortunately, personally each one DTG has done in the past, they all have had issues.....

-CSX Stealth SD40
Lazy repaint, incorrect number fonts and range, has same issues as CRR SD40.

-ATSF F7
Completely out of era for modern Cajon, and pulls modern freight cars, loco has no passenger air by default.

-Union Pacific Heritage Pack
Terrible reskins of the SD70ACe with numeral glitches errors and such, the most cash grabby thing DTG has produced. (And Skyhook kick DTG's arse with their NS ones which were MILES better than the lame excuse DTG did)

-BNSF SD70ACe
No ISO cab included with these, despite them being not allowed to lead without one, new rolling stock included with it doesn't layer into Cajon.

 

Yes, truly a complicated endeavor lmao. However will i cope with so many functions at once?!

 

Was one of those meant to be something else (played?).

 

You're missing the point. It's multiple functions for the same purpose. The method for braking a 47 versus an Electrostar is exactly the same- the only difference is that with the former you stop using one button and start using the other. Hardly the massive leap in skill level some make it out to be. And as for the independent brake, you'll find in the majority of timetable services and scenarios you never need to use it.

PC players have plenty of valid reasons to wanting to use a controller over a keyboard. They're more comfortable to hold for one thing, or they find it easier from an accessibility point of view.

 

In terms of the ECML, rather then it being done in one go, would it be beyond the realms of impossible to extend it to York or Leeds at a later date like SEHS was extended in TSW3? Or would this be to intensive in terms of scenery and memory?

I think (and is already the case), on larger InterCity routes like the WCML it's about capturing sections that offer a good level of gameplay and variety. The sections chosen by yourself DTG between London Euston to Milton Keynes just about hits all the right spots. Although the Pendolino absolutely flys along the route in about half an hour! Looking forward to the major updates to it which I think will give it the love and detail it always deserved.

Hypothetically would a regional route like Victoria to Dover be possible within the limits of the game? Or Charing Cross to Hastings? Or would a route like that also beyond the games limit. Just as an example routes like that hit a good balance between a full route, but mileage wise it sounds about the upper limit of the game.

(Just to note, all hypothetical examples not a demand of such routes!).

 

You're making assumptions again, or are confusing me with the original commenter lol.
I'm not "touchy", I was agreeing with the original commenter when he said that certain people on this forum get condescending towards modern rolling stock, which they do. "I don't like modern EMUs" isn't what they say.

Again, as I've said. I like all eras, hence why I own every bit of TSW DLC. And no I don't demand everyone likes things equally. People like what they like, which is great. That's what makes this such a varied hobby. But some people are trying to push wedges between people by being condescending for no reason.

 

Hi Matt, thanks for coming in and explaining everything, I have have interpreted the Answer to the Question wrong (I am on the creator of this thread) But I like to get everyone's opinions, I hugely appreciate the information you are giving us with really good explanations, I totally understand why it be a very big ask to get it to Birmingham with all the modelling of the stations on the way as well as the Scenery, I know for sure I will be enjoying WCML South London Euston to Milton Keynes so much more now with the massive approvement! I haven't played any other route than that.

But I do understand the constraints you will have, at end of the day I ain't no developer. I am just a passionate player who loves to play Train Sim World. So thanks for coming in Matt and explaining it!

 

one thing i am going to beg JT to do. They really should've done York to Newcaslte route, basically recreating what the TSC version have. An excuse to FINALLY bring in the Class 91 and Mk4 (class 91 is available for use of refrences at crewe as well, problem is the MK4 and DVT) in which everybody has been wanting for the longest time yet developers refuses to bring them in "c and Class 43 HST with Valenta engine which everybody said that it sounds amazing and so i am curious to hear what does it sound like.

There is one thing i maybe will give Rivet props for is that their train modeling skills are decent (maybe?) anything else is what they should have never touch, sounds, scenery and route. I am fine and I see good potential in other party developers working together to make a route. Like each party developer works on a very specific route all together, one group work on the trains, one group work on the route placement, one group handles the station modeling and another for scenery etc. With this it shouldve been possible to make a decently long route but maybe this is just me. If Rivet's modeling skill isnt as good as the others then i honestly dont see why they arent fired yet for doing so poorly when others can do a much better job, as we have seen up until now.

 

DTG may produce more routes per year, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re good or the community wants them. I’d rather see more time spend on development for a route, if that meant limiting their schedule to either 4 or 5 routes per year then so be it, at least we’d get more value for money.

I hate referring to TSC, but that’s my go to for long sessions now. If I want a quick 30 minute drive on something, than I usually play TSW. It would be nice if both games offered both short and long routes though.

 

In my opinion, releasing extensions (as for SEHS) would solve a lot of problems and disputes, IMO

 

Well the fact that DTG are still in business and are still producing the same sort of routes surely is the answer to your first comment. Presumably if they made five routes a year DTG would have to shrink and people on here, probably including me would moan about lack of content. I like the variety of different styles of routes although their abandonment of older period content like steam has stunted that variety a little.

TSC has the variety but it doesn't look as good as TSW and I have got bored of messing around in the scenario editor. TSW's service mode really is a boon.

 

Yes there are many routes which would be revitalised by extensions.

 

Any chance we can get some more information about which routes/trains are played more and which are not? I would love to know, but I understand why it isn't being published.

 

Why? How?

 

So, we're still doing the "longer routes when?" thing, huh.

 

I would like to see some extensions. Sehs is a good route for this as there are several different lines that converge/connect to eachother.
You can have a lot of milage plus variety. The same route on tsc has both branches to Dover and ramsgate also the Chatham mainline to victoria plus the branch to blackfriars. Personally ,running a stopper from the Kent coast to London is certainly more entertaining than a high speed run from Ashford to St Pancras.

Though I can't help but wonder if the route hop feature is a way for dtg to sway away from extensions.

 

Ah… I was one to call modern EMUs “soulless”, wasn’t I… Sorry about that; I don’t intend to imply that someone is of lesser skill for preferring those.

You make a fair point about modern routes not being soulless at all. SEHS is overflowing with great content. As US-based player with no attachment to any foreign stock, well, that’s the route that really got me into overseas content. And it’s full of “soulless” EMUs like the 465, which is absolutely one of my favorite things to drive in the game. CCL is another one; the 380 timetable proves that great routes can come in small packages.

That said, I empathize with the players who want more and longer BR blue routes. There’s something absolutely primal about ripping around in those old beasts. I just think we’ll be relying on JT for that, for a few reasons, which means we’re going to get some great BR blue content (albeit at a careful pace).

I think it’s a smart play for DTG to continue to flesh out its modern route portfolios; we’re likely to continue to get some pretty busy and fleshed out routes with layers that way.

 

CCL is amazing, one of the most realistic routes we have. Might jump on it later actually

 

During the Preston-Carlisle stream, JT's landscape dev said they set themselves the very ambitious goal of two miles of scenery per week. On a hundred-mile route, that's 50 weeks or a year's work. (P-C was in development for 11 months)

DTG can't afford to do just one route a year.

 

It depends on the individual. I like cargo, so I like long-haul routes.

 

Why does it take so long to develop landscapes? Isn't there a way to automatically get landscapes? Why do landscapes in many games differ so much from reality, given that people refer to maps and copy them into their games?

 

Actually, that's a really good question. I'm sure we've been told before, but I can't think of a reason apart from 'it's not possible to get semi-decent scenery from automated software'.

 

That's it precisely. If you want your scenery to be good, and not simply "something there" (think LGV), it takes work. Handcrafting shows, which is why Blackpool and Niddertal are special.

 

I think msfs uses ai to generate the landscape and to be honest, from 1000 feet in the air it doesn't look to bad. From the ground it looks awful!

I've made a few routes and if you really go into detail placing just the vegetation, it takes several hours per square mile.

 

More time spent developing routes = more cost to DTG, fewer routes per year = less revenue for DTG. That's not a recipe for business survival. Nor would actually making routes the community doesn't want.

Sam posted a couple of top ten lists years ago; a current list would be interesting.

 

Game development should include AI software that can automatically replicate landscapes. Manually placing or creating landscapes takes too long and is not useful in the long run. Manually placed landscapes and houses are too easily reused to be realistic. DTG should develop landscape AI automation technology.

 

Which would resemble realistic landscapes about like ChatGPT resembles realistic conversation

 

Source: The AI chatbot that posted this reply

Nice try robo-comrade, nice try....

 

Love this right here mate! So much stuff we don't know at all and it is so much better when it is handcrafted in my opinion, if their is ever chance to use something that will quicken things up but does quick always mean good quality?

 

Yes it can be assumed that satellite images are used to determine a base, which will then be refined manually. What is done in Fight Simulator is already not so bad close to ground level.
As for "historical" content, I don't know how it is in Great-Britain, but here in France we have the « remonter le temps » function on the IGN website that offers public access from the internet to old aerial photographs from the missions of the national geographical institute. It's incredibly useful, and interesting.

 

I also love the idea of route extensions but I have to ask how DTG can expect to make some additional income from them?
Maybe there’s some way of releasing the extended version to be purchased as an add on to the original.

 

probably as a separate dlc like they did with sehs and lirr commuter. good business idea for the first few times but i suspect people might get annoyed at paying full price every time for route extensions

 

Yeah. I love to new LIRR, but wouldn't want route re-releases to become a thing. Buying a quite crappy route, complaining and sending tickets for years only to be required to buy the full route once again to get the route I originally hoped for does leave a bitter taste in my mouth.

Ideally they should really try working on a proper system that allows for route extensions. I believe route-wise it's not an issue, modders have done route merges years ago, it's mostly just a case of timetable incompatibility. But surely they could come up with some system where route segments could be joined and the timetable services could also join seamlessly by service IDs or something. That way route segments could even work as standalone routes, then work as a full route once combined.

But I imagine coming up with such a system now would be more difficult. This is something that works better when making it from scratch.

 

Okay so I might be trending into dangerous territory here “Attack of the fan boys - my game is better”. I’ll start by saying I enjoying both games, even though I’m drawn to TSC more.

You said TSC doesn’t look as good as TSW, though I’d argue and say it’s the other way around IMO. The base TSC game I’d probably agree with you, but having the AP Powerhouse mods installed changes how the game looks entirely, more natural looking brightness. No over the top gamma which you see on TSW, also skies, shadows and vegetation all look remotely more realistic.

I’ve been asking for brightness settings for years for TSW and it always falls on deaf ears, not sure why DTG haven’t implemented that yet. It would be nice if we could tweak the brightness in-game.

 

I think when it comes to route length, it really depends and boils down to budget, experience, and the amount of stations there are.


For example, take Kassel Wurzburg, a 186km or roughly 110 mile route, the reason DTG were able to make a route such as that is its countryside scenery, and only having 3 stations.

With DTG, in TSW you can either have a 70+ mile route, with not many stations. Or a less than 50 mile route, with loads of stations, that’s just how it works, for now at least.

however, this isn’t always the case. As JT did a 100+ mile British route, with a fair few stations, this is most likely due to the difference in budget they have to DTG. There is also a degree of different experience with the developers.

let’s admit it, JT made an absolute bank load with Blackpool Branches, and rightfully so, so they had plenty of money to do this, and plus, their experience with Blackpool branches, and their devs getting used to the editor made the process go a lot faster. I mean, they were working an absolutely bonkers 2 miles a week for Preston Carlisle.



so yeah, it really depends who the devs are, what the experience is like, and the amount of money and budget they have.

 

Last time I checked, National Library of Scotland (NLS) held a fairly comprehensive collection of large scale maps covering most of the UK and different eras too. For commercial use it would probably need a paid licence to use though. Although the project ended up binned, I did assemble a full track plan for Weymouth including the Quay branch in the 1950’s with the intention of doing a model railway layout in Trainz. The data was surprisingly accurate even down to showing individual sidings and crossovers.

There’s a similar feature on the official (southern) Irish mapping website where you can get into a large scale historical map and explore delights like the Hill Of Howth tramway or the Shillelagh branch, again sadly neither of which came to fruition.

 

Well, but if modding TSC is fair game... it's not like there are no visual mods available for TSW.

 

Sorry to tag you in DTG Matt but I have a question for you. When you mentioned numbers of players have played a route, does this include non-driving? I spend most of my time spawning on foot and travelling as a passenger, I would hate to think that those hours I put in are not shown in your stats, and example is NTP, I enjoy a good thrash along the pennines but I do spend most of my time in the MK2 behind the diesel with my head out of the window or enjoying the view from the 1st class compartment.

 

Surely it's stations and operations that make a route interesting, not overall length? Crewe-Liverpool and the route through Matlock and Buxton are best -lots of stations, sidings, good yards and complex signalling. Many modern routes LGV etc just don't have that.

You also need to ensure the scenery and performance are consistent throughout. PS2 quality scenery, stuttering, low frame rates and the frequent failure to load objects (Watford junction every time on PS4) have dogged the franchise from the start

My suspicion is that DTG have moved away from historic routes partly because of the cost of researching those more complex track layouts and operations. They also create performance issues for a game engine that is what one might politely call "very limited". Yet those routes are the very ones that make the game interesting for me - and why I've not bought much recently.

 

There’s no evidence that Blackpool Branches sold better in relation to how well other DLC sell. It is good quality and was well received critically but it is still a BR blue route so not to everyone’s taste. We have to believe DTG when they us this era isn’t as popular as modern content and if you think about how a younger player base wants content depicting the trains they know rather than trains from before they were born then that makes sense. No reason to not believe DTG on that score.

The difference for JT will come not from how much they make from bigger sales (because there aren’t bigger sales) but how much less it costs them to develop their content. I very much doubt they are paying for everything by the hour in the same way DTG have to. They don’t need as big a profit margin to pay shareholders either. They will be operating in a different commercial environment to DTG or other third party creators like Rivet which allows them to make bigger routes in more detail in a less popular era and it still be worth doing. I am confident in saying that if DTG made WCMLoS to the same scope and standard as JT have done then they would make a loss just down to the hourly cost of the development of it. Maybe not a loss but it wouldn’t meet the profit margin they require. That’s what Matt’s talking about when he talks of longer detailed routes being out of scope. They are out of scope for a purely commercial company with shareholders like DTG who have high development costs and have to meet certain commercial goals. Business.

So how well will this new route from JT sell? Not as well as DTG’s ECML or LGV but it’ll do okay.

Some will buy it because it is long.
Some will buy it because it is fairly high speed.
Some will buy it because it is their era (hello dads and grandads).
Some will buy it because it is well made (this is likely to have the least impact if we are honest).

It’ll do well, probably better than Blackpool Branches did due to the length and speed, and those who do buy it will like it a lot. It’ll be critically acclaimed. Nobody at Just Trains will be ordering a new sports car from the proceeds of it. It’s still a niche era of interest they are covering and it’s clear they aren’t just looking at the biggest profit margins but what they want to have in the game. Enthusiasts. Great people. Not entirely paid by the hour. That’s how they can do it. Their skill and dedication is how they can do it so well.

 

A gamer after everyone’s heart. I wish this were the case but the buying habits are the reason, thankfully what i’ve seen recently from the likes of JetWash and our ever wonderful londonmidland (sorry for the tag spam) it’s worth looking into V5; but I haven’t played TSW since version 2 as I refuse to plough my money into fodder…. Not when GPUs and CPUs are now able to handle such pressures. Just seems this platform is hindered by console technology, or lack their of technology.

 

I certainly am becoming more picky and choosy with this 5th iteration of TSW. To begin with it was all new and I picked up all the content, some in sales of course. But I am becoming one handled EMU'd out to a certain extent. There are so many that drive the same, in the case of modern Germany there are so many that look the same. Now I'm starting to discipline myself to only picking those up if they are local to me in London, or if they are DMU's and freight from any country, or especially if they are vintage, be that BR blue period or the Crocodile loco from Austria for example. But I do applaud this expansion to DTG and 3rd parties philosophy and I will be buying routes in new countries regardless of the rolling stock included. Long may it continue because limiting the game to just 3 nations seems pointless now so much has been done.
So those are my buying plans from now on as the franchise is growing every month and we can't simply buy everything anymore. I suppose in time as the quality (for the most part excepting maybe one 3rd party) improves, then I guess old dlc will start to be uninstalled. However I do see a market for old dlc routes to be upgraded and especially lengthened, I'm sure this would do very well. Or even just a remaster by the talented Liam would bring them back to life.