Rivet Shouldn't Be Blamed For Routes

We are all probably thinking Rivet should never do a route again. Well, I think it is fair to say that they have done a decent job for some routes including IOW 22. The thing that can be a cause to issues is timing. For TSW in particular, they have a deadline to meet with. Depending on the route, timing can be affected and therefore things can not be completed. Lets take for example West Cornwall Local. The 150 for a starter, some locos are unable to get a sound copied because either license or implication to accessing the sounds. We all have to agree their modelling is superb, but implications like time, cost and space are all factors of issues we have seen and have to understand.

 

I don't agree with the headline as I don't see who else can be blamed for a rivet route other than rivet? The same way any 3rd party dev takes responsibility for their route. We don't praise DTG for Blackpool Branches we praise JT and rightly so, it works both ways.
A lot of the other excuses you give are just fluff and apply to all 3rd party devs, and DTG themselves for this game. How is it rivet always seem to get the lions share of critique? No smoke without fire.
I will say that like you say their IOW 22 was a nice route, but hardly complex to build. I also enjoyed their Bernina Line aside from it being a bit shorter than it should have been, but not a problem localised to them.

 

Rivet have become the forum whipping boys so it seems. They have become an unhealthy obsession for some.

They are inconsistent with their content but have been innovative and have produced content that no one else has.

However the class 150 has the correct sounds, but the sounds and the physics seem to be poorly implemented. Skyhook did a good job the 158 which is a similar unit.

The 150 and WCL are Rivets low point for me.

 

I think we all know that rivets strong points are short routes. When I think of any route, the factor I want to see is quality over quantity. I think Edinburgh Glasgow was just beyond the best as it is a long route.

 

Without coming across as horrible or nasty, Rivet do need serious improvement. As you said, their modelling is superb and I can agree with that. Modelling from Rivet is some of the best we have in TSW, but the general state of their addons upon release and even after a patch or two is quite frankly appalling. The amount of bugs, errors or stupid amount of small mistakes all pile up and can leave people with quite a negative experience. Edinburgh - Glasgow, a route I have travelled on many times and love in reality is easily my worst TSW DLC for this very reason. Even after nearly two years, the route and Class 385 still have pretty significant issues. I won't rant on about what's wrong with the route or train as I feel I'd be beating a dead horse at this point.

In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if Rivet had some major internal issues with communication, management or a mix of the two. It seems to be the only logical explanation for their generally poor quality addons and their unwillingness to continue patching their addons after release.

 

It's got nothing to do with the routes.
They've made little effort to patch or update their work, even when there's glaring issues.
Fife is much better now, and shows they can do a good job.
Wcml, we've not been privileged to know what went on with that, apart from it wasn't finished at the point of release.
They do make well moddled trains and stations.
Sound design and implementation is definitely not their strength.
Either physics tied to modelling of emu/locomotive, related to suspension, must be a black art It's something that could be addressed.
Were just about to get the 350 with suspension for example.
Love Fife, it still needs a bit of love.
Skyhook might be what's missing, won't know till the 158 plus timetable additions.
WCML is a upcoming refresh.And I have to say I've done more hours on this route than anything else.I'm a big fan of the West Coast Really looking forward to seeing the refresh.
Short answer no,but let's see the Sunday lunch from them, instead of Mondays warm-ups.

 

They’ve been with TSW for years now, they’ve had ample time to get to know the community and what our expectations are (that goes for every developer btw). The communities reactions to their products is a result of their own actions. Now obviously comments wishing Rivet stopped working with TSW or personal attacks on individuals are extreme and unappreciated but I think but you have to understand it’s hard to not get frustrated when constructive feedback seems to fall on deaf ears more than half the time and no substantial changes have been made.

All we want is for them to get better

 

This.

Rivet are the ones who make their content, they are responsible for it. Rivet have been working on TSW a lot longer than Just Trains, yet the JT dropped their first critically acclaimed route in Blackpool and are set to release what looks to be the TSW franchise's absolute best route in WCML Shap. On paper, Rivet should be well acquainted with the tools now and producing high quality DLC, but the quality of their content still gives me a "my first route" vibe.

Meanwhile, Rivet's Fife Circle feels like something from TSW2. If you removed TOD4, it really won't look out of place whatsoever. Using what look to be old outdated assets, that mud brown ballast, train physics/sounds feeling off. Fife should be on par quality-wise with the Cathcart remaster at a minimum, there's really no excuse for it.

The Leven Branch update could've been Rivet's chance to give the route a full-on refresh. Skyhook did it with MML, now that's one of the best UK routes in TSW. Rivet really missed their chance to turn things around, the update didn't really do anything to improve perception of their Fife route.

The worse thing for here in my opinion is that whatever Rivet makes, that is TSW's definitive version of that route/train... I call this Rivet Roulette.

West Cornwall Local, I don't see us getting a proper representation of that route now until the day we see TSW's successor. The one we have is a hodge-podge of inaccurate scenery, buildings and a made up timetable. We also lose out on a good Fife route as DTG were going to make their own, before giving Rivet the go ahead to make it... That should be seen as a big mistake in retrospect.

All that being said, DTG aren't helping themselves as a poor quality Rivet product will have a negative effect on TSW's image as a whole.

They really should be stepping up and saying to Rivet something along the lines of: "This content doesn't meet quality standards, we can't put it out in this state."

TSG made the stunning Niddertalbahn, Just Trains spoiled us with Blackpool, Skyhook also stepped up with the MML and have been dropped great freight expansions for it. We've got Union Workshops and ATS soon bringing their first routes to the table, and both look to be lovingly and carefully handcrafted.

As more of these quality third parties come forward, it makes it harder to overlook the standard of Rivet's output now...

 

All I'm going to say is, their routes aren't as bad as some would make you believe.

Out of those I've bought, I've enjoyed them all (except WCL, I use that purely for the wagons layers on other routes).

Some things aren't like they should be, but to say their routes are trash is hyperbolic a lot of the time.

 

I don't understand why people keep bashing Rivet. I quite like their Bernina Linie.

 

Rivets latest update on Fife Circle includes this at Haymarket depot.




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Of course, chopping a class 170 in half with a roller-shutter door is a normal everyday occurrence.

But let's not blame Rivet Games for making rush-job and broken routes, eh?

 

I imagine if this train tries to move you’ll get “your train has derailed” message even if you are not driving it?

 

This is a baseless argument. Just look at what Just Trains have been able to achieve with a team of the same or even smaller size. Passion and attention to detail are what Rivet is lacking...

 

First of all I also want to disagree with the statement provided in the title as blame (perhaps responsibility is a better word to use) should absolutely be on Rivet if they have made a balls up in their route, in the same way DTG holds responsibility for balls ups on their routes, etc. Yes, there are some issues with every developers' routes which can be put on issues with the core, primarily the 'classic' TSW stutter, but ultimately things such as AI generated timetables, dodgy scenery, etc fall on the dev.

I must admit I haven't given the redone Fife Circle a go, but I haven't seen any scathing reviews yet and so I hope they have corrected most of the key issues that the route had. In actual fact, this proves that the responsibility of this route, as per others they have made, is on them as they have had to go back and make their own corrections and it seems to have turned the route from below par to somewhere of a much more acceptable standard. Similarly it were Skyhook's responsibility to go back and completely refresh MML, which they received due praise for.

My thoughts on praise and critique are that they are both given when they are due and this is maintained no matter the dev. I do think everyone (well I am sure they'll be one awkward sod who won't though!) can agree Rivet have deserved their fair share of criticism over their time as a dev here, as they have not been as good as they could, or should, be at points throughout their existence in TSW. However with them now sticking to their words on the Fife improvements and delivering them with only minor hiccups, from what I have read, they also deserve their fair share of praise. I do really hope they take this positivity into their next route whatever it may be as it is of no benefit to anyone, including themselves, if they deliver another sub-par route.

 

I would argue that a very large number of forum members have a biased attitude towards Rivet. I understand why such sentiments exist. But I am sure of one thing, we should not humiliate the team that has done so much for TSW and continues its hard work.
There is already a situation where DTG is starting to hide Rivet's participation in subcontracting for fear of receiving a sea of premature criticism. And we created this situation.
Personally, I cannot say that any of the Rivet routes are terrible. Each of them has its advantages and disadvantages, like many other routes released in the franchise. But it is unfair to criticize only Rivet's work.
I get a lot of pleasure on the routes of Arosa, Bernina, Fife, Glasgow, Cornwall, White Isle, Cathcart Circle, West Coast, I like each in its own way. I like their Ge 4/4, 150 and 170. There is room for improvement and change. I hope that sooner or later this will happen.
I urge everyone who allows themselves to say - "Rivet should stop modeling routes or rolling stock" - stop, and do not allow yourself to say this anymore.
I want to note that we do not know a lot about where, how, in what conditions and what the team is working on. What can be the cause of errors and shortcomings. Sometimes we cannot be objective in our claims.
Rivet I wish you good luck and look forward to new content from you!!!

 

"And we created this situation"

For real? We, the community, made Rivet's reputation in TSW so bad that DTG hides their subcontracting participation? We did that?

That's some next-level gaslighting.

I think we'd all agree that personal attacks on Rivet devs (or anyone really) are wrong, but you're going way too far IMO.

 

How did WE create this situation? When Rivet originally jumped on the TSW bandwagon, everyone was really excited, because they had a great reputation from TSC. Sadly, they kind of deserve the current reputation they have after the products they have released.

That being said, I won't say they shouldn't be allowed to make content again. I find most of their ideas really interesting, and for the most part their add-ons are not bad, just often flawed and there is always just something ruining it. They should just work more on polish and post-release improvements.

After all, their bad reputation mostly comes from the lack of fixes and sometimes even ruining already released products. And sorry, but that is clearly deserved. Only they can change this, but they "easily" could, if they were to take more care and time with quality control.

So once again, I wouldn't say they should step aside. I love seeing their unique work. But they need to improve on their quality control and I wish them the best of luck for it.

 

Nearly every speed sign on the route is wrong. Someone gave them a complete list of locations and correct numbers and they plain refuse to fix it. That is what is wrong with them.. no fixes after sales.

otherwise i don't have any problems with them

 

So Rivet have never provided a patch after the release of some content?

I agree that there are deficiencies and they are certainly not as good a developer in terms of support as others, but hyperbole doesn't make an argument stronger.

 

blaming rivet? or constructive criticism.


constructive criticism in which they HAVENT followed. if you cant take constructive criticism, acknowledge it, and fix the pressing issues and simply move on making the same mistakes over and over again with every other route you make, then don't even bother.

while the leven branch did see some areas improved, there were still areas with basic, barebones scenery. in which NEEDS to be improved.

rivet have dug themselves into a deep deep hole, they cant get out of. their lack of incompetence and willingness to accept their flaws, have basically killed this third party.

it didnt have to be this way, rivet could have made the better choices, they could have improved, and fixed the issues in their routes, and communicated more with the community. they were given plenty of chances to do just that.

the fall of rivet games, has been a tragic roller coaster. and it was sad watching it happen.

 

The question to be posed maybe should be - who sells the product and where does the direct revenue go (ignoring the steam element of revenue) - if it is DTG (as it seems to be), then they are primarily responsible for the product and should be held to account. Doubly so since they own the platform - who makes the product, whether Rivet or Skyhook, is irrelevant, since they are sub-contractors. It is DTG who must step up and take prime responsibility and get issues fixed - we users need to keep the heat on DTG and not get distracted bashing the supply chain. You will note that JT have their own sales outlet in addition to Steam etc and it shows in their attention to customer relations.

 

Only very minor things, except for fife, which had a large amount of people complaining.

 

(Sorry for long post, but I wanted to make a point and move on!)

Worth pointing out that when MML came out, Skyhook were lambasted for what was an awful route full of mistakes, bad scenery and flawed rolling stock. I was one of those complaining.
But they listened, worked on that route and made it so much better.
It went from a route I didn't want to touch, to a route I now consider in my top five and play often. They improved it so much that I would welcome an extension to it.
We all make mistakes but Skyhook's response was the right one and I thank them for listening.

I've done a lot of Quality Control work in my lifetime, even some in train sims back in the days of MSTS. There's no way that some of the things I have seen in Fife Circle should have ever got past the testing stage.
I can't say who it was for as signed an NDA which is still valid but I once caused a game release to be delayed because I found a number of flaws in a game. It caused a ****storm at the developer - as delays cost money - but ultimately it was the other testers who ended up being replaced because none of them had found any faults (some later admitted to the developer they had just wanted to play the game early).

Fife Circle could have been one of the crown jewels of TSW, yet it isn't.
But that should not be the end of the story. There's still time to fix it.

Maybe the problem lies with quality control. As a former route builder in MSTS, I know mistakes can be made, as I made some. But I'm grateful I had good testers who gave up their time because it was a route they wanted (it was freeware so I couldn't pay them).

It won't happen, but here's what I would like to see be done. And not just at Rivet, but other developers too where it's still possible to edit the route.
Bring in NEW testers from the community who can be trusted to go through all of a developer's routes and see what still needs to be fixed.
And then work through those lists, either ticking off a few things at a time, released through a patch, or go the whole way and do a route remaster.

The only way to ever repair a bad reputation is to acknowledge you got it wrong and work to make it better.
Good reputations in TSW lead to more sales, bad ones make people wary of buying future content.

I want Fife Circle to be in my favourites but when you see missing/incorrect scenery, signals without an aspect, incorrect speed limits, floating trees, missing OHLE and so on, it kills the enjoyment.

All it will take is the commitment to put it right and Fife Circle will be up there with the best, which is where I so desperately want it to be.

 

Rivet aren't sub contractors they are an independent studio. TSW is a franchise. Perhaps now as rivet have such an awful reputation the responsibility does lie with DTG to only give contracts to trustworthy route builders and relegate rivet to just a supporting role and not actually 3rd party devs who build complete routes inhouse. Rivet have had more than enough time and more than enough constructive criticism which they basically ignore, whilst hoping to rake in our money. It's not a business model that should be tolerated without harming the brand.

 

That is a very good point. Skyhook took onboard all the constructive criticism levelled at them by their customer base. In return they fixed everything to a very high standard and have gone on to become a respected 3rd party dev. They engaged with us on this forum gladly and took it on the chin. Their routes and dlc are now trusted.
Now compare this to rivet who have a single tactic, namely to go deaf and ignore every rightful criticism once they have banked our cash.
They even closed their forum to avoid having to deal with fixes. They ignore every constructive criticism to fix things which they then continue to repeat on their next route, continuously digging an ever deeper hole for themselves. Now they are rightly shunned by a lot of the customer base. They cannot be trusted.
The people who defend them wouldn't be so keen if a tradesman attending a problem in their home conducted their business in such a way..

 

EXACTLY! Skyhook communicated with the community, and now look at MML, 100x better than it was at release.



then rivet just go completely deaf, and ignore constructive feedback. And look at their reputation, in tatters.

 

What I've always said is that Rivet have to have a good release for it to be worth getting because their post release support isn't good enough IMO. They don't take accountability in the way SHG did with MML.

But even then I'd just not feel great about buying Rivet content. The only point of buying WCL is for the wagons to layer into JT content IMO. But I like the fact we can use the 142 or the 101 instead of that horrific 150.

For me personally it's just not worth the risk with Rivet.

 

Rivet Games are either:

1: Inexperienced, lacking skill and doing the best they can.
2: Sloppy and Lazy and carefree with the mentality of "do the least for the best return".

Ultimately it's DTG who give each DLC the green light and publish it.
The buck stops with someone at DTG.

It's pretty easy to have the conversation ""Rivet, we'd like to see you do x,y,z before we publish this"".....
BUT its easier to just accept sloppy and send it out to customers.

 

The thin with Rivet is: They always experiment rather than focus on the basics. On one hand, this means announcements, elevators, and Swiss routes- which all turned out quite nice!
But on the other hand they have less time for the basic stuff that makes modern routes the standard they are nowadays!
My biggest problem with Rivet (and I think not only mine) is the big lack of communication and bug fixes. Most routes being released are in some way broken- some more and some less. The same fits for Rivet: Bernina had almost no major bugs- but the ones it has have never been fixed. I have made tons of messages, dms and pings and never really got an answer regarding them! (In one thread someone even made a list of every speed sign on Bernina that was wrong: It’s a table with how they should look and where they are- a real present for every developer!!! Still it has never been fixed..)
But the difference is: DTG takes their time to fix most things. Personally I guess most people would have been happier if the time that went into leven branche would have went into bug fixes on the other routes.
And apart from this: There is still the fact of so many missing opportunities! The Swiss railways are much appreciated and Bernina was loved throughout the community- even though it was not the whole route. Instead of then focusing on Swiss routes to use this blank space in the Add-onn market, they do British routes!
I mean: Just imagine an 20€ extension pack for Bernina, bringing in the missing kilometres, Bernina coaches and the Abe4/4 III???

But yeah, I don’t want to only say negative things. E.g. the Ge4/4 II 622 “Hakone”. You remember it had the wrong front colour? I had a chat with Rivet and the RhB and after Rivet saw they made a mistake, it was fixed! This was also the case when Arosa released! They took a look at the feedback and changed a lot of things! But then one day, out of nowhere- this all vanished and the communication, as well as many bug fixes went missing…
In the end, as many have already said, it’s just worthless to insult Rivet for their work. The make something and if you don’t like it, you don’t have to buy it! But yes, Rivet reeeeeally has to take their time with new routes and put their attention to something not as ordinary: Swiss routes.
I really love Bernina and even Arosa so I keep my hopes to get a December surprise with a new RhB route!

Cheers!

 

Me too!
I think Bernina isn't as popular as Fife and as such gets no attention anymore.

 

Fundamentally disagree with the OP and most of the arguments for the prosecution have already been made.

Yes some of their work is just about tolerable - I quite like Arosa but personally find IOW2022 with the poor signalling setup and the Class 484 that accelerates like a cruise missile and sounds nothing like a DC electric unit quite appalling.

With regard to Bernina, they chose to do half the route, starting (or finishing) at an obscure wayside station.

Their sound mixing for the trains they release is appalling, the Class 150/2 on West Cornwall remains the low point of their career in TSW to date.

As others have said, the biggest problem is they either don't listen to or even get aggressive in the face of constructive criticism.

However I also consider DTG and whoever signs off on their content to go in the store, be that the EP or someone else, equally culpable for allowing the low quality to pass through checking. DTG know quite nicely the reputation Rivet have garnered for themselves in their TSW career and should be reading the riot act, not meekly accepting another piece of half finished, poor quality content to grab their bit of sales commission on.

 

A couple of words that I seem to be saying more often everywhere these days....

TAKE RESPONSIBILITY

 

When i see Arosa mentioned. I mean i bough Bernina and i truly love it. But Arosa must be the rock bottom in TSW for all aspects. I mean RSN and MSB just run circles around it. Horrible scenery that make its counterpart in TSC laugh checked!, horrible physics for trains checked!,horrendous sounds checked!
I don't think that there is any other route in TSW that does not have one single redeeming factor for it.
Everything else that Rivet released i eventually bought and wasn't sorry for that , some mods, some tweaks, its fine. But Arosa, i would not get it for free because i feel its an insult to TSW, Unreal engine and the entire Switzerland.

 

We'll never know (and rightly so) what the internal relationship between DTG and Rivet is, but I can't imagine DTG are at all happy having to remaster WCMLS almost immediately after release.

The bottom line for me now is:

• I won't buy a Rivet route until a preview stream establishes whether the route is as bad on release as Fife Circle or WCMLS
• I won't buy a DTG route until a preview stream establishes whether Rivet have had a hand in it
• I will absolutely buy any Just Trains route on release if they maintain the standard of Blackpool Branches and WCMLOS

 

The first point you made. Ideally you should be watching Preview Streams for EVERY route before release anyway whether it’s JT, TSG or Rivet. Not just Rivet routes surely ???. I don’t think I’ve ever bought a single route for TSW without checking out the preview of the full route first.

 

In a stream they show you the best of the route, not the parts where it is obvious stuff is missing

 

For me, Rivet are very hit and miss. When they get stuff right, it's absolutely fantastic. When they get it wrong...it's really wrong. It's also frustrating that they either forget about routes or ignore people's concerns.

The 150 still being unable to couple up to other units such as the 158 and 170 is frustrating.

That being said, the two IoW DLCs are fantastic, the 170 model is incredible (even if the sound is dodgy at the moment).

 

No if i remember rightly they have been their since the previous rivet update.

 

Exactly. Someone says earlier up the thread about taking responsibility. Well that applies to people buying DLC presumably unseen and then moaning about it. There is no excuse as apart from the preview streams there are ambassador streams and then the "independent" streams. And then on top of all that there are these forums which give a commentary on every release good or bad.

I didn't buy FCL or Edinburgh to Glasgow straight away as I wasn't happy with how they were released. And I apply that to every release, if I like what I see and the developer has done a good job I will purchase it straight away, if I don't I wait for them to improve it or wait for a sale.

For all the people who are moaning incessantly about Rivet, from what I can see it is down to three reasons.

1) they didn't do any research and just pressed the purchase button and then started to moan
2) they did some research but bought it anyway, and then started to moan
3) they don't own the content but have decided to jump on the bandwagon

It isn't part of the core game, you don't have to buy a Rivet route. I don't buy every route or piece of DLC.

 

TBF as customers paying a not insignificant amount of money for each dlc we shouldn’t have to run scared of dodgy dlc should we?
By now rivet should have got their act together and engaged with the community in the same way Skyhook did with MML. Instead they refuse to even acknowledge their many faults whilst adopting a somewhat aggressive approach to any criticism.
As someone higher up the thread said; would you like this sort of behaviour from a tradesman in your own home? No you wouldn’t you’d rightly have a moan.

 

Exactly this. Which is why, despite the sale price, I refuse to buy Fife Circle or Edinburgh to Glasgow and put any more money in Rivet’s pocket. WCMLS being a slight exception as it was marketed as a DTG core route which only came to light as being a Rivet sub contract job fairly late on.

 

And in which DTG are basically having to rebuild it including timetable from the ground up.

 

No but I wouldn't employ a tradesperson with so many bad reviews! I wouldn't pay any money for some DLC I thought was so poorly made. That is the point I was making, all these people who have bought content and then get angry about it, that is down to the individual.

 

Burn the witch, burn the witch!

 

You know they're not obliged to so this right? Nor is it really our business to know whether they've helped with a route or not.

 

In which case there is something to hide.

 

So, they're hiding something because they're not revealing their business arrangements to their customers, when their customers don't have a right to know? That's ridiculous.

There's no law or anything anywhere which dictates a company must reveal working arrangements to their customers.

They're not hiding anything, to say they are just because they're not doing what they don't have to is ridiculous.

 

Keeping details of an online only business hidden from customers is not a good business model. One asks why?
Funny thing is once those customers saw the route they knew rivet were involved didn’t they?
Perhaps that’s why.

 

I'd put a bet at Paddy Power that if you give me 2 separate routes, and didn't tell me anything about them. I'd be able to tell you within 5 minutes which one was the Rivet route and which one wasn't!

For god sake, look at the WCMLS, me and most of the community guessed it was a Rivet product just from watching the preview alone... (Dovetail kept their involvement very quiet until the community called it out. And even then I think they built the whole route minus the 390 which is quite obviously a DTG product). That tells you a lot about how obviously bad they are. People are welcome to defend Rivet if they are happy with their products. That's their choice and I and no one else should try and convince them differently.

But equally don't try and convince us otherwise for calling out Rivers poor work, and labelling us Rivet bashers and giving the impression we are doing it just for the sake of it.

Rivets products are like that cheap processed frozen southern fried chicken you see at supermarkets that tries to imitate KFC, you could blindfold taste which one was which!

 

WCMLS was a number of 3rd parties working on it not just Rivet.
The thing here is if you dont like the look of a route or DLC (whether its Rivet, JT, Skyhook or DTG) then simply just do not buy it. That is all there is to it. Rivet have made some great models / routes etc but sometimes they dont bother with the updates or not concenrned enough to do them. Whether they learn from this when people eventually decide not to buy their stuff then who knows.

Personally I am frustrated with them because One route / DLC is good, then next one is well rubbish. They need to be consitant in what they do and to be frank they arent. I am not bashing them as I know how hard it is to create stuff and I couldnt do it with the help of a bargepole.

Hentis