The WCML Preston – Carlisle add-on with the Class 87 hauled trains make for a very interesting and challenging drive. The layout of the Class 87 cab makes driving without the HUD simple without the need to guess how the controls are set as you can easily see them respond to your inputs. If however you are driving with the HUD there is definitely still a need to learn the route as the HUD does not prepare you for gradient changes or give you any warning that you need to run down. I propose that we use this thread to help each other learn how to drive this train and route in an enjoyable manner. The basic rules for driving the Class 87 are: You should always run down the taps before shutting shutting off the tap control lever You should plan avoid braking when passing a neutral section with the locomotive to prevent some nasty jolts caused by the rheostatic braking interruption You have to know about gradient changes ahead so as to give sufficient time to change the taps; for instance so that you don't go over a summit and find yourself descending with lots of tractive effort applied as the taps run down You should have the taps run down before planned braking; in cases of adverse signalling or emergency you may have to shut off suddenly I've made a start on listing reference points on the route from a track maps book and the modern sectional appendix so you are welcome to copy stuff and adjust it to your needs. Let's see if we can master this route and train together. How do you workout your run down and braking points?
Two of the biggest challenges… Departing Carlisle you are barely out of the 20MPH area before hitting the Upperby neutral section. When you get the 75 indication in the HUD don’t start running up the tap as you will not have time to run down. About the most awkward place the (real) OHLE designers could have placed it as on a rising gradient. Obviously this doesn’t apply to diesel hauled trains! Approaching Lancaster on the Down you are suddenly into a 1 in 90 downgrade. If not paying attention this can completely mess up your carefully planned braking, particularly if routed into the platform where a 15 MPH speed limit applies.
I wonder how particular drivers were back then with speed limits, especially in these tricky neutral sections!?
Interesting thread, and great work on the maps. I try to learn to drive routes HUDless whenever I can. Whether I ever achieve it fully tends to depend on the complexity of the route, and my level of enthusiasm for it. I got Preston - Blackpool pretty quickly. North Transpennine I managed, but it took a long time, and I only got there because I love the route. Carlisle-Preston is particularly difficult, but I’m going to give it a go because it’s such a good route. People have different ways of route learning. My method is to write down the bare minimum things I need to know to drive it, and drive HUDless, trying to make as few references to my notes as I can (I only look at them when I can’t remember what happens next, and over time I find I look less and less, until I don’t need them at all). I find the best way to learn a long route like this is to learn one direction at a time, so at the moment, I’m only learning Southbound. With most routes, you only need to learn braking points for stations and speed reductions, because the speed increases are clearly marked. With Preston-Carlisle, with the high speeds and very difficult-to-spot BR speed signs, you need to learn speed increases as well. Because of this and the length of the route with multiple line speed changes, this is the longest set of notes I’ve ever had (Preston - Blackpool was about 4 lines!) At the moment, I’m working to this: Carlisle - 20, then 90 after neutral section. - Ease at Motorway underbridge for 85. - Once onto straight after LH curve, up to 110. - After neutral section advance warning, brake when signal comes into sight, for Penrith/80. Penrith - Accelerate not too hard to 100. - After red mill on right, shut off at green overbridge then brake for 80 (Thrimby) - After LH curve under long overridge, accelerate to 95. - At quarry chimneys ease off for 90. - Once over Shap summit, up to 105. - After Dillicar neutral section brake for 100. - Then coast to 90, then brake to 80. - At Grayrigg loops accelerate to 85. - Up to 90 at reverse curves and underbridge. - After the 3 overbridges, brake for Oxenholme. Oxenholme - After Oxenhome, up to 100. - At high overbridge with cottage on right, up to 110. - At Hest Bank LC shut off for 100 and neutral section. Then brake for: - If non-stop, 75 through Lancaster. If stopping, 30 approach Control. Lancaster - 10 out of loop. - Once clear of 75 curve, up to 110. - After Barton down Loop, shut off. - Brake at start of Oxheys up loop for 95, 80, 35 (at last signal), 25. Preston
I remember when I used to time trains on the WCML, the HSTs - despite having a worse power:weight ratio - could always achieve the best times on Carlisle-Penrith because they gained so much from being able to accelerate as soon as they were clear of the 20mph out of Carlisle. The electrics lost a load of time having to wait until after the neutral section to accelerate. This was particularly the case with a DVT leading, as was usual, because that effectively moved the neutral section 200m or so further south (as the loco, and therefore pantograph, was at the rear). The fact the Driver had to guess when to shut off before the loco, 200m behind, reached the neutral section also exaggerated the effect! On all the other sections an 110mph electric-hauled set had the edge over the HST. Incidentally, the 90s usually achieved slightly better times than the 87s overall because it was easier for the Driver to control the power with precision, even though the 87s’ maximum rate of acceleration, in ideal conditions, always seemed a bit quicker than the 90s’.
I suspect a few liberties might have been taken, but even though this was before the days of OTMR/Qtron in the cab there was always the chance a Traction Inspector might be lineside with a radar gun. And knowing a couple of TI’s during my railway career, they knew exactly which locations to stake out. 10 MPH level crossings on the Central Wales line were a particular favourite of the Wales and West Chief Driver Manager. A two hour drive there and back to check one train!
It pays to "feel" the gradients by tapping up or down single notches. I usually keep the thing between notch 25-30 to maintain a constant speed on a flat section of track. If I feel the train start to slow down or speed-up, due to hitting a gradient, I will slowly tap up or down one notch at a time to compensate, say maximum 5 notches in either direction. Always avoid the urge to panic and go straight into "run up" or "run down" as you'll end-up overcompensating, and make yourself bigger problems.
One of the stories my uncle likes to tell is that one Sunday at some point in the late 1970s he was on a delayed train from Nottingham to Leicester, the driver was clearly wanting to get home as he had full power on from Nottingham to Leicester and the journey across Trent Junction was bumpy to say the least but they got into Leicester on time. He wrote a letter to BR Midland to thank the driver for getting him back to Leicester on time. They sent a reply thanking him for the details and that they'd give the driver a disciplinary for driving at excess speeds....oops
Real life drivers know what they're doing, why would you assume they must've sped in these situations? As has been mentioned, traction inspectors were always out and about with the radar gun, or travelling on the cushions. I was dispatched from Carnforth on quite a few occasions (when DVTs were introduced), to shove an electrically stranded Up Euston service to Lancaster. On occasion, the flyers were held a stop at Morecambe South Junction to let a service ex Morecambe out in front. As the 86, 87 or 90 was on the rear, the driver in the DVT had to be careful to carry enough speed to get out of the OHNS at the rear, whilst stopping at the control signal. On some occasions they didn't, and a shove with a 31 to Lancaster was called for. Fun times!
Well, to echo what some of the other replies have been, I suppose it was leniency with how much the speed limit was enforced, maverick drivers taking matters in to their own hands (at their own risk) and then like you’ve mentioned - guesswork with the risk of stalling and needing a shove. This was a time before health & safety ‘went mad’ after all.
I love when people use that excuse about health and safety going mad. Health and Safety has been around for decades, centuries even. Rolling stock that wasn't steam had to have yellow ends put on because of Health and safety and that was the early 1960s
Indeed. Health and Safety is there for a reason. Just go back and read “Red For Danger” where numerous accidents were caused by excessive speed. Just because you can go “10% over + 2MPH” or whatever it used to be in your car and get away with it, doesn’t mean the same leniency applies to railway operations.
Slightly off topic: How do DVT's and Class 87's TDM system work together? The DVT's have a stepped throttle and the Class 87 has a tap changer. I've wondered how the system world work, how would you reset the Class 87 if it tripped, and if the DVT can operate the locomotive with a simpler stepped throttle why wouldn't that also be retrofitted to the Class 87 cab?
I've updated my PDF a little so please discard the one I started this thread with. I've updated the journey Preston – Carlisle to have some actions and improved reference points. I'll update Carlisle – Preston in a couple of days hopefully and will checkout lcyrrjp's notes in post #4 . I think it will be a long while before I'm ready to make some videos and this is actually taking me away from some other train simulator stuff I need to finish; a TSC scenario "The Full Tilt Rail Tour" which I made a video about, and videos and route learning guides in the area I set out to cover, although part of that of the delay there is that the route I really want to cover is the infamous Fife Circle which isn't in a great state with signalling and suicides. If anyone wants to use any of my guide to make some route learning videos themselves then please feel welcome to do so and put a link in this thread so that we can all enjoy. **old PDF deleted from post: a new version is available near the end of this thread**
There’s a different Neutral Section on the ups and downs between Penrith and Oxenholme? Tebay on the Down, and Great Strickland on the Up?
The Great Strickland one if from the modern Sectional Appendix bit doesn’t seem to be there in 1986 so I’ve changes stuff round on the Preston to Carlisle journey. I’ll fix the other journey in a couple of days when I have time to go through it. Ignore the Carlisle to Preston journey for now.
Ah okay. That had me worried for a moment. It must be the same one that the JT dev asked about in the forums a few days ago then!
Excellent route learning document, really enhnaces the experience. I remember a real train driver created a document for the classic South West Wales route (created by a real driver as well) for TSC, really made the driving experince more immersive. Great days for the classic sim back then, when UKTrainsim was in full flow, with the excellent Wales and Borders route, Cresston etc etc.....
Well this one is heavy withouth notes . Blackpool branches, TVL and northern trans pennine i can drive by my head. Really enjoyable to drive from ormskirk to blackpool south in complete darkness and being on time with stopping on all stations.
I like that route too. The issue with JT releasing stuff around November is that the dynamic weather means lots of low visibility; most of my Blackpool Branches route learning videos are in such conditions and I chose to stick with them to demonstrate why you need references close to the track. On the Penzance to St Austel I use audible reference points too mostly the level crossing sounds. I think we need tunnel and cutaway audio reverb added to the old routes to help us too.
If memory serves; - When you selected a throttle position, it would put the loco in run-up until it reached the tap appropriate for the selection (setting throttle to off would set the loco to off, not run down). Drivers had to be careful though as no ammeters were provided in the DVTs. - I believe a Pan Up/Reset button is provided - Money, probably. A system like that was fitted to the unique 87101, but that was a trial for the technology which eventually went into the Class 90 and 91. The improved performance of 87101 meant it became the only 87 not dedicated to Intercity upon sectorisation; it went to Railfreight and subsequently EWS.
Great post. I prefer to drive HUD less too. My hint list is barely half a page long, though not as precise as yours. I find all these town and road names meaningless for me and prefer combining 2 or 3 reference points in 1-2 miles distance from action point together, like "Neutral Section sign. First S turn from Preston, then before second overline bridge" or "105. You were driving through the valley towards a large hill. Now you skirting it on the right. Sign is there." ))
My guides do have a lot more information than you need to keep out of trouble. I put everything in from the Sectional Appendix and the Track Maps books as a real life driver would need to know all those details; on my Blackpool Branches guide I spent a lot of time on learning how to identify the level crossings for this reason alone. Often I take my detailed guide then make myself some simpler instructions to help with the initial route learning, and that is the best way in my opinion as constantly looking at details on a piece of paper is actually not conducive to learning by driving the route. I also make a point to use signage as an additional reminder only for example a Morpeth board can easily be stolen, or a speed roundel can be painted over. There was mention by JT that the Neutral Section Boards were not up in 1986 so I’ve been deliberate to ignore them. I can’t find details about when they first appeared though so can’t verify any claims. I was finding Preston - Carlisle frustrating initially as I can’t yet drive it to the standard of a route I know well. I took a little break and setup a Class 87 + 9MkII, MkI Brake and Class 47 formation and drove around Glasgow (Newton - Down Inner Circle - Glasgow Central) with the Class 87 where I concluded that I like driving the locomotive at least and it’s not a handful when you know exactly where the gradients are as I think the challenge with the tap changer is that you can come over a summit and it takes so long to run down which is bad if your not ready for a steep decline. I’ll see if I can figure out how to share that formation in Creators Club. I didn’t try E&G as Class 87’s for obvious reasons never went along that route, although they probably could now so it’s TSW play away! I’ll have another go at WCML latter on and I think I’m staying better in control now.
Excellent guide and interesting thread. Speed limits are a useful addition thank you! To make sure we download the latest version perhaps you could use versioning?
So, not very well is the answer. The TDM system works by the master sending out a tractive effort signal, on say the DVT this is dependent on which notch you are in, so say notch 7 is 100% tractive effort, and notch 0 is 0% Tractive effort, this is how the DVT, Class 90, DBSO sent out the signals when they were masters. On Thyristors based engines like the 90 it is very easy to control the Tractive effort based on this signal. On 86/87s this wasn't the case. When the 86/7 was acting as a slave it would receive the Tractive effort signal, and it would convert this to a target current value. The tap changer would then be controlled running it up and down trying to match Motor current with the target. This as you can imagine is very slow and so the speed set was forbidden when used with an 86/7 as it would inevetialby badly overshoot and exacerbated other issues. It would also cause the tap changer to constantly run up and down at certain speeds and power handle positions which caused rapid degredation and failure of the transformers. There was also instances of severe wheel burn caused by the 87 going into an all wheel slip, which its wheelslip detection system cannot detect and so the driver on the DVT gets no warning and the only thing stopping it would either be the overspeed trip at 124mph, or the driver noticing the train wasn't pushing as it should. During 1999 Virgin trains had 10 transformer failures on 87s ultimatley because of TDM which put the locos out of service for several weeks if not months. When TDM was used between an 86 and an 86 it wasn't so bad, because the signal from the 86 converted the current to a TE value, and then since the locos were near enough identical the conversion back would effectively match the two tap changers.
I’ve been wondering where Just Trains are getting their plans from as all I can find is the modern route from the Sectional Appendix https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...ators/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/ and a modern track maps book that is copyrighted so I can’t share. From driving the route in TSW I’ve found some different speed limits sometimes a figure between the current limit and the enhanced ones, and a neutral section in a different location. I had this issue in Blackpool Branches also where there are sidings I can’t identify so if anyone knows where to get historic plans it would be a great help. Thank you Clumsy Pacer and DominusEdwardius for enlightening us on DVT’s and tap changers, all very interesting.
There is a 1977 sectional appendix available at: https://web.archive.org/web/2024042...org.uk/document-library/sectional-appendices/.
Around a week ago I somewhat mastered northbound direction and before learning southbound switched to other TSW routes I have. Instead of learning by making notes I came to an idea of learning by making maps. I found it more intuitive and visual. Yesterday I came back to WCMLOS and made a run where I created a map that includes speed and neutral section signs, and, also, some warning signs with instructions for running down and braking. There are also many instructions from TrainsAndWellbeing's doc. Maybe, someone will find it helpful to have visual representation of the route, because mentally mapping curves from the game onto curves on the map helps me a lot in remembering routes. Keep in mind, that was my first run in southbound direction, and there might be some imperfections. Personally, I'm sure in everything but 2 Caterall ONS signs. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1VLEvOU5sg1jJwmWdb7FnSk9m4xaez40&usp=sharing Many of the signs contain extra information if you click on them
I have treated myself to this fantastic route, primarily because the 87s are my (second) favourite loco. Thank you to all for best practice on how to drive...just a few questions to answer please: Should you 'run down' completely to 0 before applying any sort of brake force? Should the power controller be in 'hold' when cruising? Are the neutral sections flagged on the HUDs, or do I have to learn these? (Don't mind doing the homework, just thought I'd ask)
Should you 'run down' completely to 0 before applying any sort of brake force? You would normally aim to, but you don’t have to, and if you’re in full power when you get an unexpected double yellow you wouldn’t have time to run power all the way down before starting braking. Run power down as far as you can before you need to brake, then move the power controller to “Off”. This will shut off power. Then start to brake. While the taps are still running down, you won’t get the regen brake, but you will get the air brakes. Once the taps have fully run down, the regen brake will cut in automatically. Should the power controller be in 'hold' when cruising? You’d normally put it in ‘Off”, but if you’re expecting to re-apply power at any moment, it’s OK for it to be in ‘Hold’. Also, in TSW when the power handle is in ‘Off’ it slightly obscures the speedometer (this can be minimised by setting the seat position high, but it’s still not perfect) so if - like me - you prefer to use the in-cab speedometer rather than the HUD, you might prefer to coast with the power handle in ‘Hold’ at times rather than “Off”. Just make sure you move it to “Off” before passing neutral sections.
I've now also completed my notes for the Down direction: Preston - 25, then 110. - At the end of Oubeck Up & Dn loops, shut off and brake for 75. - Loop is 15 in. Lancaster - Loop is 25 out. - 100 on bridge. 110 after Morecambe South Jn. - At concrete bridge over river on long straight, coast for 100. - After neutral section, coast for 90. - If stopping, brake at 90. Oxenholme - 90 on departure - Under overbridge entering RH curve (under telephone wires), coast for 85. - After Lambrigg Crossing (with hut), at railing on right, coast for 80. - At crossovers, up to 100. - After neutral section, up to 105. - On sighting v.high footbridge, ease for 90. - Once over summit, up to 95. - At end of Dn loop, brake for 80. - After sharp RH curve onto straight with overbridge, up to 100. - After crossing Motorway, brake for 75. - After crossing Motorway again, brake for Penrith. Penrith - After neutral section, 110. - At Southwaite crossovers, shut off then brake for 105, then 85. - After Wreay station building on left, coast up to 90. - At pointwork brake for 20 (pass through neutral section below 40). Carlisle
I don't believe that there is a 1986 sectional appendix available as a free download, however I've found surprisingly few differences between 2003 and 1986 for the mainline, so you can quite easily use this: https://web.archive.org/web/2024042...sectional-appendices/nr/nw/section-4-2003.pdf I've done a full run in both directions and the only differences I've spotted so far were the speed limit over Shap summit being 90 rather than 80 and the down passenger loop at Lancaster being 15 rather than 40 (!). It's a lot closer than using the 2024 one, there have been significant changes in recent years with a lot of crossovers being removed, Hest Bank box abolished etc. The Morecambe branch changed a lot in 1994 but that's short enough to easily memorise anyway.
Can someone give a guide to braking for Oxenholme heading south I have been trying to count signals after Grayrigg but I am either coming in too hot or braking way too early and having to coast. Thanks
Maintain line speed (90mph) until you reach the point where there are 3 bridges over the railway in quick succession (they’re all within about 100 yards of each other - it’s quite distinctive in a rural location). Make a full service brake application at the 3rd bridge, and you’ll come into Oxenholme just nicely. You’ll need to ease off the brake as you come into the station to avoid stopping short, but better safe than sorry on the falling gradient. Edit: if you watch the below video from 26:30 you can see a Driver braking for Oxenholme in real life. He actually brakes just before the first of the 3 bridges, but he brakes pretty lightly. I suspect he was concerned about wheelslide in the low adhesion conditions. Based on the way this Driver drives in other videos (frequently hitting the platform end at 50mph) I think in better conditions he’d have braked later and harder.
That works really well thanks for the tip, I guess it's all about recalibrating until you find a sweet spot! This is a great route to learn hudless - loving the challenge
