So, I was wondering something, and I wondered if any of you guys have any idea on this. Now that Dutch content is on the table, what do we know about Christrains? Is he in any way involved in the creation of the trains? Now that there's routes to make trains for, could we see him making loco add-ons for the game? I'm quite sure the ICM and SNG included with this won't be expert level, though DTG is definitely getting better regarding detail with their trains. But would there be potential for expert loco add-ons by Christrains perhaps?
Last thing I remember was an interview with Rivet and Christrains a long while ago. If I remember correctly, he said TSW locos were too complex to make, compared to TSC. I'd be nice obviously, but he created Dutch trains for TSC while there's no official Dutch route DLC. If he wanted to make trains for TSW, he could've started years ago. I hope not. I'd rather have regular versions of trains.
Yeah, I do recall something like that. Though that was a while ago. Nah, I don't really think this goes. Loco add-ons not being tied to their route is still a pretty recent thing, and before that, there just wasn't any point to it. No Dutch routes to tie the train to meant no Dutch trains either. And even after allowing independent loco-addons, it would still feel a bit pointless to have a Dutch train that can't actually properly interact with any routes in-game, and feels out of place pretty much anywhere. Though I will say that he could've definitely worked on a TSW version of his German trains. Specifically the RS1 ZugBus, and maybe ODEG Stalder GTW, though of the latter I'm not sure if it'd have an actual proper home-route. I'm all for optionality For me, I like my content to be as close to the real thing as it can reasonably be regarding system-depth and features. But I'm a sucker for emulating proper procedure most of the time when I play. Also to satisfy the fact that I've unfortunately never made it to be a real train driver. But "expert" should definitely be an optional setting, and the main content for any route should remain properly accessible also to players who aren't as much of a purists like myself. Out of curiousity. What is it for you personally that you prefer in regular content over expert content?
The price tag. The regular BR101 costs €14 and was generally considered a pretty good quality DLC. The expert BR101 costs a whopping €36* and contains all kinds of features I'm not going to use. I don't want to pay extra, I'm quite happy with the regular BR101. Plus I'm worried about future substitution. Will the regular BR101 still be used for future substitution, or am I required to 'upgrade' to the more expensive expert loco to get the full substitution on future routes? *Note that that €36 price tag includes recycling bits of the regular BR101, which had already generated sales. Imagine what a brand-new expert loco could cost...
the expert functions can be turned off, in the case of substitution I've seen the answer a lot. it goes: Due to the cab car, there needs to be a seperate timetable (because a shove at 200km/h with a 101 is weird and DTG won't make the cabcar in a simple form for their TT) for any other loco that is just a standalone upgrade to expert, it will either layer or substitute in like normal in the normal timetables. for example an expert vectron or 155 will show up for any german/austrian freight it could run as seen already in game with the DB cargo substitution mark. These copied timetables have to be made by TSG (TSA now I think?) and thus will release about one or two months after DTG releases theirs. Again, only in the case of the 101 and it's cab car is a different timetable needed. just a loco will substitute like any other new loco dlc. I personally only run the expert 101 when I play and don't like that all journeys still use the default timetable but so be it, adding the cab car to the expert dlc caused a lot of confusion on how they work. Just a loco upgrade would've been more logical, but as they had the oppurtunity for the 101 that of course became the loco. and a lovely time as it's being phased out now. I think it's still a niche product even though me and others enjoy it a lot. and even with the raised price and development time, I can't wait to see more expert DLC. mainland europe or not.
ah cool. it really confused me congrats on that project though. I think after we got a slight hint of older stock in Linke Rheinstrecke and Niddertalbahn. The Mittenwaldbahn will do great. especially since I saw a lot of people ask for more austrian content in the game as there was none on the roadmap. from the few screenshots it looked amazing and I will definetely spend so many hours on it when I'm not including the stock into my timetable project.
He showed up in this thread early on. Probably 2nd page or so. Just to be clear, before I accidently get anyone's hope up. Nothing's confirmed. No promises are made. No expectations are to be had before anything is officially announced. It's just what they have in mind currently.
DDZ is actually probably the most common intercity train on this route IRL, so in terms of future loco DLC, that one's probably the most likely. VIRM does appear sometimes, but not often, and so it doesn't really feel like it would make for a natural pick for any DLC on this route. VIRM would probably be better served as the base loco included for any route add-on that features either Amsterdam or Utrecht. The ICM is a logical choice though as it's pretty much the most iconic Dutch train, and while not as common for an intercity on this route anymore, it's still very common. And given it's a relatlvely stale route for a first one, mainly serving as a vehicle for obtaining the basic knowledge and assets for more exciting routes in the future, it still needs a good selling point to get people (not just the Dutch) interested in maybe wanting to try out this newly introduced country.
I'd say with the amount of trains we have compared to the amount of routes possible I'd almost think one or two trains per route will cause developers to run out of rolling stock to ship with routes unless they change era's. SGM would be a lovely start. but there's a decent amount of interesting and colorful old stock for this little country. 1700, 2200, Mat64 and a lot more.
I'm not too worried about that for a few reasons. First, while it's likely that in a few years time, there'll be a few more Dutch routes out, it's not like the Netherlands is going to get completely equal attention to, say, Germany. Also, even then, I mean, Germany has enough trains, but they still don't even have the high door DoStos But also, I believe, if I recall, it's been said that only the 3 wagon variants of both the ICM and SNG are going to be included in this. So the secondary train of any new route could also just be the 4 wagon variant of either of them. Also, we have more than plenty of unique rolling stock, even if we only count post-2020 rolling stock which still includes SGM. If we go back and include 2010-2020, we'll also have the Mat'64, DDAR and DM'90 And if we go back to anything retro, pre-2010 (I feel old now), especially if pre-2005, than we'd get to experience the ICM with their original gangways still in service, which I'm sure people would find interesting. But frankly, if anything Dutch retro is going to be made, it would probably be done in conjuction with some TSC group like DutchClassics instead of DTG doing it.
I think developers really slack on the different wagon variants. So I hope for the first 5 routes we at least get a new train. I think as a secondary train it would be a good idea, but I suppose there is some internal argument that dealing with multiple wagon variants takes up so much more development time instead of just spamming "ICM or SNG" everywhere. I think the incredible range of electrostars the british have are represented in more than one but I think that's one of the few trains to have so. They even skipped on Salzburg - Rosenheim that just under half the 111 services ran with N-Wagen and just made them all DoSto... We can dream but seeing the existing line of content I don't have very high hopes. However, the future shall tell. maybe we'll see more about the Zwolle - Groningen route or maybe a tease for another route soon (hopefully the coming 20 days) But I expect the route is still 5 months out and nothing new has reached production yet. Of course, listing them all would be insane. I do hope when the Amsterdam area gets a route, there is another long distance train, that being the Eurostar, Thalys or the ICE-Neo. I think there should be some color on there, even if the dutch HSL traxx combinations are the obvious pick. I do think the next route will add an SLT and either the VIRM or DDZ to fill up the traffic and dutch catalog. a DB 189 for freight would also be very smart unless the vectron gets reused for the more 2024/2025 timetables.
A bit busy, so I'll only respond to a few of your points. Firstly, I would warn you not to get your hopes up too much. Specifically when you say things like "first 5". The Netherlands has real potential, and we're getting 1 route for now, with the knowledge that there are 2 other candidates, but not necessarily plans. Let's first see how the what happens to the 1st. Then see if the other 2 ideas actually materialize. Then maybe we start talking about "first 5" Enthusiasm is great, but let's not get ahead of ourselves only to end up disappointed if the route fails and/or as a possible result, future content is held off. Wouldn't want to end up like the people that cheered on French content at the start of LGV Mediterannee, only to still be left with one single one-trick-pony route 3 years after the fact. Secondly. Yeah, I'm really hoping to hear a status report on Zwolle - Groningen soon. Even if it's still far off and not much done, just so we know where we stand. And lastly. An ICE with ATB woukd be really good yes. Though I prefer firstly to see ICNG ICE on a Dutch route may also get more Germans on board though. So it'd be a sound choice to include. Will get back later. Have to go now
Thanks for the reply, I typed that a bit tired and I definetely meant those 5 as hypothetical. I don't expect to see all release soon. Austria is also at 2 routes now, one upcoming from TSG. I know about the canidates and one confirmed. I was just guessing to the future I really think the dutch rail net has great potential for many more routes and I hope NS picks up on this. From a friend I know there is a big dutch group for TSC. I do hope those two canditates make it, and if a busy route with a lack of rolling stock or trains shows up early I'll be happy to make a modded timetable for it. The ICE3 we have ingame from SKA would be great for a rework as ATB is already on the console (not working though ofc) that thing ran from Arnhem to Amsterdam over Utrecht as most dutchies know. I do however think with how busy and diverse Amsterdam or Rotterdam can get, I hope they get released not too soon as an empty timetable can really make a route feel less good. I wouldn't mind if there were promises to add stock to there later, but that's not something very common in the development of DLC. ICNG is definetely a cool thing (it could even show up in Dresden now ) But I think in 2024 it's still a rarely seen train unless you are on the HSL.
I think it's more likely we'll see very modern equipment rather than older equipment. Access to research is probably easier, and I suspect it's also more popular amongst the players. And I wouldn't be surprised if the NS wants DTG to 'advertise' their newest ICNG. I also think the ICNG is likely because high speed remains popular amongst the TSW playerbase. I guess the VIRM and SLT are other likely candidates, just as the Vectron in NS livery. Although I personally would love older stock, like the Mat'64. I travelled quite a bit in these trains back when I was a student. Feel free to give my suggestion (link in signature) a like if you want to support my Mat '64 suggestion.
If (big if!) more routes should follow, my money is on something busier. Matt has remarked that this first route was chosen because it's an easy way into the dutch assets, and that the other routes are much more complex. Most bigger routes in the Netherlands rely on VIRMm as the most common type of rolling stock, so one of the VIRMm classes is very likely to appear in game (again: -if- more routes are to follow). SNG can be reused on most routes, while SLT and the NS branded FLiRTS are region bound, so unlikely to happen any time soon. ICNG is a good candidate because of the popularity of high speed trains in TSW. I wouldn't hold my breath for MAT'64, SGM(m) or one of the loco's (NS E193 excepted perhaps - low hangin fruit as it's identical to the multi current version of the Vectron that's already in the game and only ATB needs to be added to the screens). EuroStar is probably a no-go, because of licensing. DDZ is also a good option, as it runs on quite a few routes. And the DDZ middle cars can, with a bit of imagination and a fresh coat of RAL 3000 paint, pass as German high door DoStos
I personally would like to see SLT some day. yes with ICM and SNG we have enough to fill the routes, but from personal experience as a passenger I dislike the SNG ICNG I doubt to see very soon, it'll have to be on the HSL and that means a proper ETCS implementation, something only rivet has tried and according to the reviews failed in doing so pretty bad.
Which is weird, right, because ETCS level 1 (which is used on Luzern - Sursee) is pretty similar to LZB and PZB (LZBs cab signalling combined with PZBs point-based information transfer). Level 2 is a different beast of course, but should also not be impossible. I would love for DTG to invest some time in this in 2025, because it opens up many possibilities.
as europe gets closer to ETCS in more and more places I think having it working ingame and on loco's that have it would be a smart step before we have routes and more likely loco's needing an upgrade later to add the missing safety systems. something I don't expect them to do again due to previous releases. (hello Luzern Sursee Flirt on german routes)
I would be interesting to see if they can tackle the ICNG. It means DTG would have to make a train that switches pantho's for different currents and switches to different safety systems completely automatically
Correction for new routes they have added it but for existing routes thats a complete different story. For existing routes its not that smart and if i look to the Netherlands its will be a disaster to implement it with a bizar amount of Tracks needs to close with extreme results for people that use the train very often. If you look to Germany they have to do other work first to prepare they their tracks for operational first. The German tracks in a state of disaster so they are more away then our tracks here in Holland
I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I think you are on about irl tracks, and I do agree that closing off tracks won't be the best for ridership. I think the upcoming close in Zeeland for ETCS testing has been heavily opposed. Sadly replacement bus service isn't that reliable as you are usually on a 20 minute search to find where the bus goes from and then it only drives whenever it feels like instead of a spaced timetable. However much the implementation will take place. I think it's a good step to have one centralised safety system instead of the 40 or 50 that exist now. I'm glad games are there to contain that part of history though. getting back to the game, I suspect getting Amsterdam - Utrecht as a route will be only on ATB even though ETCS is already in place (and tested for 160 km/h untill they found out the ground is too soft for those speeds). or is it ERTMS. I always confuse the two.
ETCS is in game not an Option in near future..... DTG has already confirmed that its to big to build and very difficult to put in a level thats getting near to reality. Maybe in a very far future but there are no plans for it. That was the latest statement by Matt a few months ago in a livestream. And what i mean in the real world by the Dutch railway system it will take way more longer than planned to add to the system. Both lines where its in use, HSL en Betuwe cargo line it was a very long thing to get it work properly and on the Betuwe cargo line they had reduce the amount of trains for years due to failing systems.
daanloman#3930, ERTMS is the parent system of train management which includes ETMS as one of its parts, the signaling system. It also includes GSM_R as the communication part of its overall EU wide safety systems.
Ahh I missed that livestream then. an understandable choice, I do expect it to take at least 50 years to have ERTMS everywhere. but I'm glad that we are getting somewhere. Ah like that, thanks Sharon.
From a game programming standpoint, ETCS isn't that far off from TVM (French high speed safety system, already built for the TGV route in TSW) and LZB (numerous examples exist in TSW). The user interface is different, but the basics are the same: 1. look ahead at changing speed limits and aspects of either real or virtual signals 2. countdown for the driver to react 3. display all this in a graphical use interface ETCS adds extra functionality (mandatory acknowledgment of transfer of responsibility between the system and the driver, automatic changeover of voltages, automatic shut off of breaker when needed etc.), but that's all basic scripting. You don't even have to simulate how ETCS does all this in real life, a simple icon to click on the LCD in the dash is enough for responsibility transfers, and voltage changeover isn;t hard to script. In fact, Christrains has built the automatic voltage changeover into his implementation of ETCS for Train Simulator Classic (found on the ICNG for that game). Switching between responsibility modes is simplified with an icon that asks "Check track ahead clear?". This would work for TSW too, and would be enough for most players I reckon. I get where Matt is coming from though - to accurately model ETCS, you'll need to implement things like moving blocks instead of movement authorities base on physical (static) blocks like the game does for LZB and TVM. An accurate responsibility transfer is cumbersome to code I reckon. But I doubt most players will notice if DTG "cheats" and only simulates those aspects of ETCS though. And for the Netherlands it really doesn't matter if moving blocks are missing from TSW's implementation of ETCS. Only the "HSL Zuid" has a true moving block implementation of ETCS in real life here, the other routes simply overlay ETCS on the existing ATB block pattern, so are based on static blocks. The same is true for ETCS on most German routes in real life - all blocks are overlayed on the existing placement of physical signals and isolated track sections.
Don't know if this has been posted here already, but I figured this could be useful once the route releases. (Still a while to go I know) (In Dutch)
I made a thread about this a while ago. You can find it in my signature. Though the site from which I used the pictures no longer exists, so I'm still gonna need to find another source, as all the spaces where the illustrations were supposed to be are now all empty.
Getting ETCS into the game in some form is going to definitely become more important particularly with some of the most requested routes.
Not going to happen. Last roadmap the route was still more than 3 months away. Release dates are nowadays announced only a week or two in advance.
As someone, living in the US, who watches cab ride videos from 3 different Dutch drivers, I am also looking forward for the release of this route. One of these is an Arriva driver, so have seen the ATB NG safety system in operation.
The following information pertains to freight traffic towards Zwolle and Onnen. Additionally, there is also traffic coming from Delfzijl to Onnen. UC Onnen - Zwolle: Day: Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday Time: 18:00 and 19:05 Train: DB189 or DB193 / Boilers Zwolle - UC Onnen: Day: Monday and Tuesday Time: 14:57 and 16:05 Train: DB189 or DB193 / Boilers UC Onnen - Delfzijl: Day: Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday Time: 5:08 and 6:07 Train: DB6400 / Boilers Delfzijl - UC Onnen Day: Tuesday and Friday Time: 8:38 and 9:41 Train: DB6400 / Boilers Here a link with train combinations: UC Onnen Goederentrein So it can be more interesting with this layer.
The route would certainly benefit from layering on a vectron that brings tankers to Onnen. Onwards to Groningen (and off the map to Delfzijl) would be nice too, shame we don't have such a diesel loco yet.
Hopefully more news today, it’s been months and no news about the route. You would think it’s almost finished by now, right?
Well, they did say that it was really in the earliest of stages, so it was quite clear with the initial reveal that it would be the last in line for any of the things DTG were working on at that moment. They should be a fair bit closer to release, but also considering it's a brand new country, and not like Wales which still mostly uses overall British logic and assets, as far as I'm aware, so there's quite a lot of extra time spend on basic Dutch asset creation and creating proper signalling and safety systems all that for which they do not yet have anything yet. Zwolle - Groningen is a pretty sparse route with only 8 stations, though 108km, which should help getting it done a bit faster. That said, it's still a new country with new rules, new assets and new things to learn. I believe I recall Matt saying on a stream sometime that an actual new country that's not Canada, Austria or Scotland/Walves, which still uses mainly US, German and UK logic, could cost 6 to 9 months of development. Considering they probably only did some very basic development by the time of release, as I recall the article of the time said, I think we could still be looking at an early springtime release date most likely. Though anything earlier would of course be great (if that doesn't mean there's a compromise in quality) We'll see though. I really hope to see a status update about it this week Especially since a lot of the "reveals" so far have been just updates on current projects.
New WIP shots of the ICM https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...son-of-reveals-2024-week-3.87814/#post-944813
