Do People With Real Steam Engine Experience Like Steam In Tsw

This. You have to remember that most of your player base are casuals. Not "hard core." The few who complain are mostly hard core because they're passionate (and not always correct, but definitely passionate) However, DTG looks most at sales and seeks that casual majority. If something doesn't appeal to the majority, it generally doesn't get followed up on. If there's 100,000 players and 10,000 buy something then yes it "sold" but the routes that sell 30,000 are a better time investment.
Moving to an even more "realistic" model would drive off more of the semi-casuals too, leaving an even smaller base of people want "expert level."
The majority on TSW just aren't into steam, and they said they'd have to redo the whole engine simulation to please the hard core people.
Do you rewrite the game... or just drop the 10% for focus on the 90%?
It's just business. However, the people who demand steam engines won't accept that and think it's some nefarious scheme because they "hate steam engines."
No, they just know that casuals are their money makers.
If it's better in TSC... then there's TSC (as far as DTG is concerned since both are them anyway)
Again, as I've said before the number of players who are hard core, into steam, who don't have PCs (and can't get TSC or another steam focused game) is very small.
Ironically I think expanding "good enough" steam like it is in game and growing the player base who is exposed to it BEFORE demanding "expert level" would have been a better option (like the 101 expert level came from demand from the "normal" 101 on plenty of German routes, not from an immediate demand for an expert 101) So less would be more in the end.
Although with Thomas and his steam-powered buddies coming to the game, that could mean a lot more steam enthusiasts eventually. They won't be 6 years old forever and will ask for more "mature" stuff as they get older.

 

When you say 10% you mean the hardcore steam players right because I've seen several polls over the past year that ask if people would like to see more steam locos and they have all sat around 35-45% in favour. In my opinion that is too big to ignore and untapped revenue potential for DTG. Those of us who want more steam won't stop asking for it until they (or a 3rd party) give us more, or a new competitor to TSW comes on the scene.

Just to add....i would also stop asking for more steam if DTG put an official statement/announcement on this forum, with its own title on the subject stating definitively that they will not be working on any more steam locos, period (apart from Thomas obviously!).

 

"Hard core" yes.
So that makes sense. If about 20-25% of the people are "hard core" and 40% of people want steam...then that tracks.
That's 30% wanting more current level steam, 10% wanting "more realistic" steam.
However, it's also not the same thing saying you "want it in game" and that you'll buy it.
I for example like having more and more German stock in game, but I don't really want to buy or play it.
I don't plan on buying the Dutch route, but I'm glad it's in the game.
So that 10% is a high end figure of the people who would like it existing... not who would definitely buy it.
And even less who would buy it for full price on release.

 

Wanting basic simulation of water and coal, the very foundations of steam locomotives, isn't "expert level"!

 

That's not "all" what was being asked for.
The requests weren't "basic."
That's what we have.
If not expert, then "medium skill" especially compared to a one handle EMU that most casuals enjoy.
If it were a simple matter of showing the accurate water level, then it would be simple (although some diesel engines still don't have accurate fuel gauges) but asking for exploding boilers and such... that's beyond what DTG said they could do with the existing system. I'm not looking to reopen yet another thread on what "realistic steam" looks like. There's already dozens of those.
Whether they are "good" (per the OP) depends on what you personally think.
Since most people here aren't steam drivers, a lot of it is personal preference, and that's especially true when gauging what "feels right" or is "fun."
The OP said steam was "very realistic" and that many were simply inaccurate when they said it was "wrong." I can't verify or dispute that. I'm not a steam expert. So it's a battle of "experts" without actual experience in many cases.
Maybe that could be an interesting discussion, but if there's no disagreement on what IS "realistic" then how can it be implemented "realistically?"

 

DTG also said BR blue doesn't sell and wasn't in demand then JT went and blew them out of the water lol.

Also the statistics that DTG have shared from TSW5s launch regarding most played are fairly skewed as they (probably) haven't controlled for release dates and the amount of time content has been available for.

You can't really trust DTG with saying what does and doesn't sell. It's almost like the best quality products are the most universally well received.

 

Firstly, I didn't see anyone demanding those as absolutely necessary. Secondly, "service failure if boiler water level drops too low" does not seem too hard to program, or at least it would if the game had a concept of boiler water level.

 

I don't know how much work it would require. Opinions vary widely. I just do know that it would take work....on top of the normal work for routes and locos. Given the relatively lower sales, it's not considered a good business investment. Yes, I know people will say it "should be a passion project" or "it's for the good of history" or something else, but when it boils down to it... it IS about staying in business by generating revenue. Putting Thomas in the game shows they are willing to have "steam" in the game if it promises to generate large sales, so more "steam" locos like we have in game (Jubilee, 8F, Flying Scotsman) would be done by DTG if it generated substantial return on investment. I think it's really a "cart before the horse" problem. Show them that ANY steam will sell, and then demand "better steam." You can't demand more work and a better product before proving there's a big enough market to warrant it. It's not just "steam" or "sim games" either... that's just how business works in general. It's the old adage we had in the service "perfect is the enemy of practical." You have to start somewhere and prove it's workable before putting more time and money into it. If your answer is a "meh" then that makes people second guess doing more. So as I said... ironically the Thomas thing could actually reinvigorate the whole "steam" category if it's done correctly. The vast majority of the show centers around steam engines and a very "retro" backdrop, so those customers wouldn't be arguing it's "too old fashioned" or "too slow" or "old timey scenery" etc like fans of modern EMUs would. They are already "in" the setting and atmosphere. It's just a matter of moving them to more complex systems which is the relatively easy part.
Build the audience, then invest more in the product.

 

No, this is nonsensical. Why would DTG create good steam if bad steam sells?

 

So you'd rather not have any steam..... well that'll surely convince them.

 

I rather have steam that is not perfect than no steam at all. Peak Forest is a great route, awesome atmosphere,nice challenges. The Spirit of Steam route is a bit more routine like, but the amazing yard sizes makes me love it as well. I really want far more of this and I still feel disappointed DTG gives up on this. Other train sim game that have a really bad steam physics are doing quite well and people seem to love it for realism???? I do not understand it.

 

I too would be happy with steam as it is rather than being abandoned. Although I would like them to at least fix the silent AI sounds which are immersion breaking.

Obviously I'd like the experience to be as realise possible.

Whilst they weren't perfect, a lot of people enjoyed the engines on SOS apart from the tendency for the very noisy safety valves to go off.

 

it was always understood that steam traction was a work in progress and I think people would’ve been happy to keep buying steam add-ons as long as steady progress and improvement was shown. Unfortunately, a gross misjudgment was made and DTG just threw in the towel, letting down a massive part of their player base.

 

When I drive the current steam locos I do so because it is FUN. I think that when any game developer sets out to make a game or sim that is the ultimate objective, that it is fun to play. I think somewhere along the way, that way of thinking has been lost for a couple of reasons. First one; perfectionism becoming a hindrance to development, the second; DTG too sensitive to any negative feedback.

 

I don't think DTG is sensitive to negative feedback at all actually.

 

You are welcome to think that.

 

I think it boils down to the diverse player base. If you want to reach out to "casual" players, then you have to accept not being as "fully realistic" at times, and vice versa. Obsessing over detail can lead to driving casuals away. They are different player bases with different goals and desires. TSW casts a very large "net" to try to get the biggest audience which makes sense, but also inherently involces compromises.

Often called "sim lite", that middle ground is where MSFS has lived for years and thrived. It's a compromise that leaves neither side 100% happy, but happy enough to keep playing the game. Assuming DTG is "failing" because it's not catering to your particular desires or play style is more a matter of personal perception.

We have to remember that a LOT of people play the game and they have a lot of different opinions and expectations. Someone is bound to dislike anything that DTG does no matter what it is. You won't get 100% of thousands of people agreeing on everything. It just doesn't happen.

For every person out there saying "too little" there's someone else saying "too much."

 

Here to say i dont have actually experience driving steam locomotives.

But i talked to many maintenance staff, who were part of the overhaul team back when they had scheduled steam services.

Every single one of them said they were actually happy when steam locos disappeared and they could work on diesel or electric locomotives. One of my former team mentioned he got bad mood when he saw the steam shunter appearing in the workshop. He had to clean / overhaul the firebox.

No no, neither Tsw nor todays Steam Railway Museum romance reflects the fact, that this Era was dirty and hard work.

Beside the Railwayfans, not many experienced staff do wish this time back . Its just how it is.


But yes driving a steam train up in peakforest while sitting in the warm home. Its atmospheric yes.

 

Yeah I totally agree People show off how detailed the planes are in MSFS and compare it to TSW saying dovetail should do better

Oh wow I'm sure DTG would map every nut bolt and wire inside the trains if they only had 1 at a time loading in the maps.

I feel some people don't know we can control any service on the map or even just ride on the train for fun so where is the AI on MSFS?

Oh yeah you have to pay for that and it's not AI as you have to set it up in the menus and they don't follow a timetable it's just unorganized Chaos

 

I want to also put in here DTG has always welcomed and asked for constructive criticism by it's player base. If you don't consult the players who are interested and genuinely passionate about railways for a train simulator it won't work

 

Options exist, you know...

 

Which is what I said....

 

Well they don't seem to say anything when it comes it being accountable. We criticised DTG for outsourcing work to Rivet for WCML South, they've said nothing. We criticised DTG on how they released NYT in such a state, they didn't say anything.

To me they seem to be scared on facing the reality of criticism when we hit the most. I don't know, wheather the CEO is insecure and will backlash or has done some dodgy dealing in developing routes.

 

I see constant responses by DTG people on lots of threads and issues. Not sure why you haven't seen any of them.

Selection bias I guess.

 

Even though you may have been willing to buy more steam DLC, from what we know Peak Forest's sales were much smaller than SOS. Understandably Spirit of Steam sold well but PF appears to have been a flop, hence DTG's lack of enthusiasm for making further steam DLCs.

Peak Forest certainly wasn't helped by the route going from nowhere to nowhere, but I reckon a lot of people saw the way steam turned out and decided to give up until DTG updated the steam simulation. They've been waiting a long time.

 

Peak Forest is a great route. So scenic. I love the climb up to Buxton full pelt and then coast in on the approach without much need to apply a lot of braking.

 

I wonder why you haven't seen e.g. the complete lack of responses to, for instance, the "Why was steam abandoned?" threads...

 

SOS sales weren't great to begin with. So for whatever reason it was.... steam sales were

The forum isn't the majority of players.
The forum is not sales.
Not sure what else to tell ya.

 

I wonder if the higher sales for Spirit of Steam were because it was the first steam route.

 

I always got the impression SOS was popular. If it didn't sell well would they have bought out PFR?

In my view they would have been better developing SOS more with some DLC and putting in the stopping services than moving straight on to a new route again with a sparse timetable and one that logistically made little sense.

Also not fixing AI steam sounds and then messing around with the physics means that steam doesn't seem to work properly.

It's not going to garner people's enthusiasm.

May be that for some reason steam just isn't going to sell in TSW, however I find it hard to believe as it seems to sell well in other sims and it attracts all generations old and young, a visit to a local heritage railway shows this.

I do feel DTG have to take some of blame due to their approach after the big build up and the excitement and interest which accompanied it

 

I still think beneath the outward enthusiasm, behind the scenes there was a collective sigh of relief once SoS was released the commitment to PJ’s vanity project had been fulfilled and they could move back to the comfort zone.

I’m afraid we’ve seen too many of these ebullient preview streams to put much credence in the sincerity of any commitment beyond getting the budgeted return on sales, at which point the DLC heads to the “former” corner.

I’m as guilty as anyone for joining the SoS train and thinking by now we would have a route populated with numerous ex LMS and BR Standard locos, various passenger rolling stock and period freight wagons, maybe even extended north to Preston or across to Chester from both Runcorn and Crewe.

 

The retreat from steam traction was all a bit of smoke and mirrors really; blame the poor sales on the apparent lack of enthusiasm for the period, rather than the actual reality of a LOVE poor implementation of steam in simugraph, not to mention the AI audio mess. North American freight has suffered the same lack of foresight and passion to spend the development time to get it right.

 

Steam's sales are irrelevant to the question of whether DTG have been responsive to complaints.

 

This.

They also must know quite nicely that something based on the GWR, maybe Riviera Line, would sell like hot cakes even with steam traction as it is currently. Something else is driving the process, whether that be quirks of the production management at DTG or directives from Focus Entertainment.

 

Personally I found SoS quite a dissapointment. I just think it's a boring route, don't quite know why though. Didn't live up to the hype IMO. It did kinda push me away from steam, I haven't purchased Peak Forest yet, even though a good steam route would add some variety to my collection. I guess I fear it'll be the same dissapointment as SoS was.

 

If SOS had had a full timetable and felt something approaching the bustling steam period mainline it would have been in the mid to late 1950's it might have been more appealing.

There could have been shunting services at the numerous yards, trip freights, local services and plenty of opportunities for DLC, shunting loco's, light goods engines, other heavy freight engines, different classes of express passenger engines which would have all driven differently and plenty of opportunities for local passenger locos. There would have been many different types of carriages around then and not just mark 1's and a myriad of wagon types.

The route isn't the most scenic but has some interesting features, Runcorn for example.

For me the bottom line is that SOS is far to empty to be anything like representative to what it would have been.

 

Also doesn't help that I can't figure out how to properly drive the Jubilee. Despite having driven quite some steam locos in TSC, driving them in TSW seems much more of a challenge. For example, I can't manage a steady braking effort on the Jubilee. I'm probably doing something wrong (or something is bugged), but the game doesn't quite explain to me how to properly drive the Jubilee.

Shame really, because I quite enjoyed steam locos in TSC, especially German and US steam locos, but I've driven quite a few UK steam locos as well back in the day.

 

The fact DTG didnt even make the slightest effort to layer a few 4f services (shunting, freight or local passenger), and not even put a few static 4fs on the sos route, is saying everything about their plans. Steam was already dropped after the release of sos.

 

Was it the CEO of Dovetail himself that he requested SOS? On the lines of 'I want to stand on the platform at Crewe Station with steam engins'

 

So because they didn't do what they normally don't do when a route releases then that means steam was dropped. Right.

 

I think part of the problem was, for all the complexity it is actually quite a short route. All water (steam?) under the bridge now but having two large main line locomotives was crying out for a 60 or 70 mile run. They could still have indulged Paul Jackson’s whim by including Crewe on a WCML that went from Stafford to Preston.

 

Yeah. It was just a vanity project for him to revisit his youth.

 

I took a trip down SOS earlier in an attempt to finish one of the two journey runs I need to complete the route.

And it couldn't have been more different than my jaunt down PFR. The route struggled on my series X although might have been shaders loading? That and just the whole route really is dead. And this was a lucky run where I saw two other trains for once. The run wasn't awful the inclines kept me on it a little more as I ran to the 55mph Fitted goods train limit. Instantly something was wrong as the buffers were all touching and the couplings all loose. I was also consistently getting coupling vibration through my controller the whole way because of the stuck buffers so I had to turn that off.

But getting into the yard at Crewe we were back to that old chestnut of stopping on a sixpence. Passed the go via location to reverse into Basford hall which advanced the objectives and oh? My trains off path. Remembering that stupid signal that my brake van inched past. But thankfully I saved about 500 yards earlier just in case so I drifted into the yard for the second time and edged my brake van up to the shunting signal and boom objective complete.

Begin to reverse into the yard and realise I'm going off route and completely the wrong way again. So I have to drive right up to that signal again and find the 6ft of space between the end of the points and the shunting signal with a loosely coupled train that doesn't stop when the locomotive stops. Thankfully the points changed once the brake van edged past (Just about stopping before passing the shunting signal) and after 3 attempts of pulling up to the same signal and point set I managed to complete the run.

All round it was just a frustrating run and I was just happy to be done with it. While PFR at least has something going for it with the beautifully made route for the most part SOS felt frustrating, empty and boring unfortunately. And it just reminded me why I hadn't bothered with those last two runs.

 

I remember that one but sadly I hadn’t made a save before going off path or getting the SPAD.

Whoever designs these scenarios with such close stopping margins needs to be forced to play them over and over until they admit they got it wrong. A bit like the “Break Room” from Severance, anyone watching that will get the reference!

 

So I'll not be buying SOS anytime soon until work is done to it but hopefully something will happen with it because I love the British routes everyone had a reason it was selected either for British Railway or Train Simulator History.

Teeside and Darlington: The location of the world's first rail guided wagon way

Spirit of steam Liverpool - Crewe:
Liverpool to Manchester was the first ever steam hauled passenger service

Great Western Express: (RW3) Ts2012 Original British route was Oxford to paddington with FGW blue HST sets

SouthEastern Highspeed: Britain's First Highspeed network capable of over 125mph

I'm glad to see two of these routes have and are currently recieving updates upgrades and expansions here's hoping the other two follow suit.

 

The responsiveness to bug reports isn't really relevant to the thread topic to be honest. If DTG uses sales as a barometer of interest, then it's 100% relevant to the topic. Of course, even that is (again) getting a bit off topic which was supposed to be "people with real world steam experience" I think. Of which very few have said much. It's mostly people still angry about DTG's decision, of which there are dozens of threads. I was actually hoping to hear more from actual real world steam drivers. There have to be a few from heritage railways who can speak up on it. Admittedly there are fewer and fewer real world mainline drivers since steam was gone by 1970.
I'm kinda curious as to what game/sim really DOES get it the "closest" in the opinion of real world drivers.

 

I was hoping the same thing but I guess they are all working on the actual steamers not playing games and in forums

Shame I moved haven't got a heritage line in less than 50 miles or id be the same go greener Scotland I suppose

 

The heritage lines local to me are all diesel. All but 2 are over 50 miles too.
It's sad because they actually used coal fired steam for a long time due to having so much coal around. Not many were preserved though.
I guess out west there's a lot more steam stuff and down south.
Better weather maybe?
I wonder if Hyce has ever commented on it on his Youtube channel.
He is a heritage railway steam operator.
I see him playing Derail Valley and Railroader a lot. Used to do Railroads Online.
Has he ever played TSC or TSW?

 

HYCE now has his own game so I don't think he will speak highly of any other game but his American railroad game is supposed to be extremely realistic but I couldn't comment as I'm not a US rail fan