Alan Thompson Simulation Route Discussion/speculation Thread

Judging by this video a lot of ex-WMT 323s are currently being used on this route. Northern routes seem to be the go to for transition liveries

 

Maybe they're extending it to Euston, with the lines through Stoke, Crewe and Birmingham. With a branch to Cardiff cos why not.

 

personally im in the camp that i wouldn't mind if it came out this time next year if it went to Crewe and see what else gets developed in the next year.

it looks a fantastic route coming from some who's local and has used it many times when working at the airport. im just not convinced about how much variety is going to be in it as it is now, to convince me to buy it. it was the same with the Glossop route.

 

As it's just the class 323 I'm not bothered about this route. I wonder if they're delaying it to develop a new loco or smth...

 

I'm just concerned because people apparently left the team so maybe somethins happened? Seemed to be some remarks around people not being paid for what they worked on or not paid fully? That was awhile ago though so maybe has since been resolved but still weird its been held back

 

If it is still on the roadmap it's coming. I believe there were small updates on each roadmap. Remember it is their very first project and likely a very small team with each dev working on multiple things at once. Unreal engine is also new to them. Remember it can take a while to learn everything

 

Think that might be old news and at least publicly seems to be all happy smiley faces in the bearded one’s cadre.

 

Yeah, it's all on Thompson's people management skills, any dictatorial attitude over asset creators, track layers, scenario creators and route integrators will drive volunteers away. And of course the not unimportant details like splitting the profit. I doubt those volunteers will work 'gratis'.

Especially if AT wants to do better than the likes of JT or even DTG itself to carve a market share for himself, a solid, capable, dependable team has to be assembled.

As to licensing, a third party has to do this for itself, right, when DTG will only be the publisher?

 

Didn't they headline the Cambridge Folk Festival some time in the 80's?

 

It'll probably be released for TSW7 lol

 

Perhaps they are insisting that an ATS subscription (no thank you) will still be a requirement to purchase it!

 

Definitely not for me. Any subscription will see me no longer purchasing any DLCs or core games.

 

Same here.

 

I'd love to see them try that little number on consoles! I wonder if Sony would even allow it.

Would certainly be enough to put me off. But I wonder if part of the agreement for making content for DTG states it has to be accessible to everyone.

 

Seen this thread has got some activity.

To clarify a couple of things. Firstly, last I knew the route is still very much in production however it is down to 2 people working on it as the rest of us have now left ATS whether due to work finishing or other reasons. They may of also brought more people on since the rest left, I don't know but I do imagine it remains in production.

I can only speak for myself but my experience with ATS was a mixed bag, some good but overall mostly bad. Effectively for me, I departed their TSW team due to consistent failings of them managing production. On top of this, the people at the top do not have really much interest in TSW and would rather pool most of their resources into TSC still which is fine but that means for me our paths no longer align. Despite several attempts to try and better communication aspect and overall production, it was going no where and honestly my energy would be better spent working away from them and with people who are more comitted to TSW production.

There are ongoing issues with other developers who worked on the project which hopefully will be resolved soon and I hope for everyone involved it does however again there are failings with ATS Management that ultimately need to be addressed. Overall I am sure the route will come out, we all worked very hard to deliver a route that people will enjoy and I still remain confident that people will enjoy the route when it comes out.

For all of us that have left, don't worry we will no doubt end up working on new things and if that happens, I am sure we will be excited to share it all with you and the rest of the community

 

Just to further clarify, I can't speak on behalf of other developers and I am sure things will be sorted and the route will most likely still be on track to come out at somepoint. For now probably just worth keeping an eye on the roadmap

 

Oof.

 

Certainly a rather frank insight at what might be happening at ATS. Definitely seems the product was announced rather prematurely. Screenshot saved as I suspect the revealing posts might be "disappeared" when moderation returns in the morning as it doesn't reflect well on the "partnership" if things are that bad!

 

It’s not particularly shocking, Alan has long held a critical view of TSW & DTG, so it was more surprising to me that this project had ever gone ahead.

That being said, I would have thought the route would be far enough along to get it out. Wouldn’t be the first time ATS pushed out content when they’d given up development before completion.

 

This illustrates the potentially difficult position DTG are in. They're reliant on third parties creating content, because the player base isn't enough to sustain a development team that could create enough to maintain the momentum needed.

With TSC, it's a free-for-all, and DTG aren't able to maintain control (which sometimes is good because anybody can release anything, but sometimes not so good... because anybody can release anything.) It's also impossible for this model to work on consoles, because they are not open platforms (which only further restricts the potential player base) and only approved companies can release on them. (Incidentally some third parties like Skyhook are likely already approved developers for some consoles, but an inexperienced 1- or 2-person team getting that approval can be much harder, plus there are requirements about who acts as publisher for DLCs, etc).

With TSW, DTG act as the publisher - I suspect mainly because it couldn't work any other way on consoles, but also they can control what's released (and when). And while some would say this isn't healthy, it does protect the end consumer from a lot of puzzling (and negative) experiences of needing subscription (A) with DLCs X, Y and Z just to get new DLC Q to work.

Of course, some would also say that the way things are, DLCs have plenty of issues, no quality control etc etc (which really isn't true, despite forum frustrations and suspicions about intentions, no sane business would try to sustain an ongoing business model "service" like TSW by planning to put out content that doesn't satisfy their audience... it's actually just really hard to get every single detail right, and sometimes some of the bigger things also fail - this is modern game development reality).

The downside to the TSW model is that the closed system (which some might prefer over the uncertainty of a complete wild west) is that it relies on third parties to get involved and follow through with plans to a level which the player base is happy with. Since DTG don't develop third party routes, they have to tread a fine line between pushing for high quality, but not simply rejecting the results of a year's work from a small team that will likely go bust if their DLC doesn't release - this in turn would not inspire more third parties to sign up.

I'm not writing this to say that one is good, the other bad, but the long-term future of TSW is likely dependent on third parties to supplement DTG's own routes, and this ATS episode is an interesting example of sometimes how difficult managing externally-developed projects can be as a publisher.

As players I suspect we're always in the position of wanting more content - and probably will be until every route ever suggested is made... I'm personally hoping that this hiccup is relatively minor, and the route can release successfully, inspiring further routes from ATS and other prospective third party developers.

 

It's quite refreshing to have an insight into what is going on behind the scenes. Very interesting read indeed!

 

I suspect many of the smaller developers are people doing it in their spare time, in addition to their day jobs. Unless you’re living off an inheritance, I highly doubt making content for a niche game is going to pay the mortgage or put food on the table etc.

 

When you read stuff like this it really puts it in perspective what an incredible job the guy going Mildmay BY HIMSELF is doing, given that route seems pretty imminent.

 

The insider information gives a clue as the the character of the main character, i.e. a clear lack in certain skills in AT.
Finding new motivated people that are willing, able and capable of finishing off what others have started is always difficult.
And as soon as a certain adjective description starts spreading around, it will even become more difficult.

So we'll see if and when this project comes to market.

 

I used to watch the ATS streams but they've become self indulgent and any questioning of routes was always mocked or shut down in the chat by the ATS disciples. This insight into the behind the scenes goings on is no surprise.

 

I first became aware of the bearded one’s existence after watching some of his reviews of the early TSW route. They were actually quite good and he didn’t mince his words over some of the issues either - like the all too squeaky clean appearance of WSR. But I guess things have moved on since then…

 

Things moved on when they realised they could cash in on TSW in my opinion. He's gone from being scathing (often rightly) to towing the company line.

 

maybe we should run a poll to see if the ATS route comes out before DTG finish WCMLs..........oh, hold on, we all know WCMLs isn't going to be finished at this stage, at this point they might as well sack the timetable team and let Fawx do them.

 

What do you think that'll achieve? Especially if Fawx doesn't want to do it full time

 

maybe its time for new blood. the current team clearly aren't up to the job. TSW has been going since 2017 and DTG still can't get to grips with writing a timetable [for instance] that works.

 

Problem is, it may well be that there aren't the people who want to take a full/part time job.

 

That also denigrates Joe who is a timetable ace and so far as we know a full time employee. In fact I’m surprised he hasn’t been poached by Network Rail Train Planning at Milton Keynes!

 

Thank you for the information.

This is a route I'll no longer purchase

 

Whats that old saying “never bite the hand that feeds you”…

 

Cant really see that happening with this particular dlc.

 

I used to watch the bearded ones Twitch streams but found him to be terse and unhelpful so I stopped watching. I also used to subscribe to his website but after a couple of issues that werent my fault and the very unhelpful answers that came back I let my subscription lapse.

 

The current timetable after DTG Liam got involved in fixing it is heavily based on Fawx's work. It's just not as detailed as what's in the enhancement pack because further enhancements to the timetable had to be put on hold due to performance issues on console. The overground timetable in particular is now vastly improved and much more like the real thing.

 

I really hope this route is still due out soon-ish, I noticed some new scenery effects/assets in the recent screenshots which show a real attention to detail. Probably the only upcoming route I will buy day one.

 

Given that the route sits in the "TBA" category, and no one has said anything about it being at certification/testing stage yet I would assume it's still several months away from release.

 

Had a similar experience on their FB page, when I genuinely queried the need for subscription rather than just pay for the items as you go and pretty much got told to fudge off.

That pretty much nailed the coffin as regards ever buying from them and that extends to the TSW route, if it ever actually appears.

 

Nice attitude. It makes you wonder how some people stay in business with that sort of approach to prospective customers.

 

And there it is folks, PC development held back by console limitations. We were assured by DTG this would not happen, yet here we are with them visibly giving PC a cut back timetable instead of a full fat version. Nothing against consoles, just disappointed by the broken promises.

 

saving on development, testing and QA (sic), to keep the game small and shallow for the console's limited resources
but fortunately PC players can use modded timetables to great effect

 

Oh please. Not the platform wars again!!

 

Well just to quote this, the issue is ATS just seem to have no interest in actually taking it seriously and pretty much every contractor has been left out of pocket. Even now some developers haven't been paid. I am the only one out of everyone that left who got any kind of a settlement and even then it was way under the value of the work but I ultimately took it to get rid of the stress that they were causing me. They need to sort out their communication, pay people what they are owed and ultimately from there learn from their mistakes

 

Overall though TSW has proven to be a much better place to develop for and everyone else i have worked with have been brilliant including DTG. Things may slip up but its a complicated type of work to do and everyone is allowed to make mistakes as long as they learn. But for certain I still think overall TSW side is thriving and a fantastic place to do development work

 

Indeed, it sounds pretty terrible - while it's out of DTG's control, because they're not responsible for ATS staff or payments, I'm sure they'll be wincing (not least because they've given the route a decent amount of promotion and it's a big issue for them if it now doesn't materialise).

Sorry to hear that's how it's played out, and I hope you and the other contractors find other work very soon.

 

High Court Enforcement might be an option to sort that sort of stuff out!

Regardless of the type of work whether it's physical labour or digital, it's very poor and unprofessional practice to do such a thing.

I'm sure I heard at one point the ATS route was originally planned for a December or January when it was first mentioned?

 

Worth everybody managing expectations about whether or not DTG can address this in a roadmap - there's not much they can realistically say in the event the route continues to be delayed. I suspect they will only talk more about it once they're super-sure the route will be close to release (and probably in with DTG for QA).

 

I think the Train Sim Community website has perhaps taken the wind out of the sails for ATS, no subs, just lots of excellent add-ons for TSC and TSW. ATS seemed like such a close pool of talent, such a shame that it went the way it did.

I did wonder why so many of the products they have that were WIP, suggested to be close to release, for ages.

I started to lose my love of TSC after the AP Weather Pack V2 was released, rendering any scenario made with V1 totally redundant. Yes it can be rectified through TS Tools but when time is short I fancy a drive not a faff. TSW's timetable provides that need perfectly. It doesn't overwhelm me with a list of new skins that I've got to download or let me get 20 mins into a journey when the sky starts flashing and you have to exit, download, install, check TS Tools, reload the game, find the scenario and......it's time to go out to the pub.

Such a shame as there are so many good routes and an excellent selection of rolling stock in TSC, it was giving TSW a run for its money in the Steam charts not so long ago.