Alan Thompson Simulation Route Discussion/speculation Thread

should probably put their money into their Devs pockets more by the sound of it.

 

Well, there will the army of faceless console players, who don´t hang out on the forums and won´t care about ATS practises. They should make it a huge financial success. At least that´s always the argument I hear on these forums.

 

I’m not here to get into a back-and-forth, but I do want to clear up a few things.

First off, ATS came into TSW with the best intentions—to create the highest-quality routes and stock possible. That’s still our goal, and I’m confident we’ll get there. We’ve learned a lot during the development of MAC, and as we go through the final stages of bug fixing and polishing, those lessons will only make our future projects even better.

Now, I want to directly address a claim that keeps coming up: the idea that we haven’t paid our contractors. That’s simply not true. Every contractor working with us on TSW is on a profit-share agreement, meaning they get a percentage of the revenue once the product is on sale. Until then, no payments are due—because there’s no revenue yet. These agreements are crystal clear from the start, and everyone involved knows exactly what to expect before signing.

Profit-share models have their upsides—they often lead to the best outcomes for all involved—but, as with any investment, they also come with risks, including delays. That’s not unique to us; it’s just how this kind of agreement works. And to be completely transparent, ATS is in the same position—we've made our biggest financial investment in a single project, and since the route isn’t out yet, we haven’t seen a penny in return.

That said, we’re all working hard to get this route over the line as soon as possible. But let me be clear: we won’t be rushed into releasing something that’s not up to our standards. We’ve always said we’d back ourselves fully in this space, and that’s exactly what we’re doing.

After a really positive call with DTG this morning, we’re feeling good about getting the route into your hands soon, and in the best state possible. In the meantime, if you want accurate updates, please only trust official sources.

Thanks for sticking with us—we know the wait is frustrating, and we appreciate your patience.

 

@thenotonlyanorganist
@theorganistwitharepertoire

 

Now this is some entertaining drama- how'd i miss this until just now?!

 

Fair enough, it's not something I know much about. I assumed those working for the large companies like Rockstar might be in a more stable sector.

I believe gaming is supposed to becoming more popular than watching television especially amongst the young. It would be nice if their were rewards for the developers to reap.

 

This is the kind of agreement I would expect for a piece of DLC and this is also the way it works in the German community, from what I understand. I was wondering why the person in this thread was going so public about not getting any money, whilst the route is not even on sale and generating any income for anyone. Have you forwarded a couple of thousand pounds towards him before release, like he has claimed on this thread? Because his claims and your claims contradict each other. I guess he could ask for a lump sum of money beforehand and back out of taking part in the profit sharing afterwards, if you agreed to that deal.

 

I am not sure that washing dirty linen in public is particularly edifying. It's not really our business from what I can see.

I will treat this DLC like any other, if I like it I'll buy it. From what I've seen so far it looks good, my main wish is that it went to Crewe. Also, I would rather it had a blue/grey 303 or 304 with it, even if I do like the 323.

 

Normally, we work on a profit-sharing model, meaning developers earn revenue once a route is released and generating sales. However, in some cases, developers have asked us to buy out their equity instead, and we’ve agreed.

When this happens, we have to base the valuation on the state of the unreleased route at that time—since it hasn’t made any money yet. That’s the only fair way to do it, and it’s standard practice in the industry.

We also want to remind everyone that our contracts include confidentiality clauses, and financial matters like this are best handled privately rather than in public forums. We’re always committed to fairness and professionalism in how we work with developers, and we’ll continue to approach these situations in a way that’s transparent and reasonable for everyone involved.

 

While I can obviously sympathize with the story you tell if true. ATS certainly has a rather peculiar track record that makes me doubt your veracity. Multiple talented devs driven away, court cases (which you lost may I remind you) and more makes me rather doubtful you are telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

what is written (or not) in contracts, NDA and more informal agreements and what is daily practice under AT's management are apparently quite different.
AT has acquired a certain notoriety and has displayed a certain negative/condescending attitude in previous live streams and social media expressions, and only actual deeds instead of kind words will change this, for me at least.

 

So just to make it clear from my side.

As stated before I was brought on to the TSW team in June/July. The original agreement was for a profit share. Majority had this but some didn't such as 3d modellers for stations. It was sold to me by ATS as the route would hit a 2024 release, entering QA in a finished state by X date and as such I agreed to the royalty share. We then missed several deadlines, which were not at fault of the development team but that of the ATS Management team, one of which was a developer as well and had many periods where they would say they were doing work then not doing it for days and weeks at a time, this as a result caused us to miss crucial deadlines. December came and the majority of us decided enough was enough and I was the first person to ask ATS to buy out my profit share in the route and pay for my work/time.

The reason I chose to do this was because it was evident that despite many attempts across months to try and resolve things, ATS remained "half in, half out" in terms of commitments. Promising to change things then not delivering and stating "changes take time" bare in mind that it had been months and the changes hadn't even started. So you combine that with the general missing key deadlines, it was clear that to me the route was not going to come out within a reasonable timeframe (there is a time of essence clause within the contract). So I had began settlement talks with ATS. My work was valued at a rate of around £10,000 based off the figures I was given by ATS at the time of signing the contract. Ultimately ATS originally deemed my work to only be valued at £1000 as they changed the value of the route to £10,000 without communicating this to any contractor which to me also seems very misleading considering what I was told before the start of the contract.

Bottom line is, after a lot of back and forth, an agreement was made to buy me out at £3,300 and whilst this was way under, I had no choice but to accept due to many other factors involved including my personal situation at the time and my health. The added stress was making things worse and if an agreement wasn't reached I would then of had to seek legal counsel on the matter so I decided to cut my losses. Here's the critical part though, it should've never of gotten to this point. I delivered on every single aspect of my contract plus more to try and help get the route over the line because ultimately I am very passionate about TSW development, it is something I enjoy greatly. Whilst yes the development in TSW is tough, every other contractor delivered besides ATS management.

I stand by my statement that I still want the route to release however I do not wish for any other developer to go through what I and others went through at ATS. Outside of ATS, the community, DTG and other parties have been fantastic and it shows that TSW really does have a very bright future ahead of it. My final point is this, I was contacted again this morning by Alan, pleading to take my posts down stating that its lies but it isn't and I won't be doing that. He then deleted the messages and has made the statement above.

I don't want drama but I do have a right to share my experiences and I hope ATS should they continue to work in TSW (I hope they do on the condition things change) they change things going forward and ensure that the experiences I had never happen again to any contractor. That being said, I will not be accused of being a liar especially when these were my experiences and experiences that I have plenty of evidence of. At this moment in time, I have no idea if others within the team have been bought out or have been paid if they weren't on profit share but I hope this serves as a wake up call to ATS to sort it out. Some of these people have been waiting best part of 2 months now to be paid.

That's all, again I look forward to the route releasing so everyone can see what the dev team worked so hard on

 

I like the products that ATC releases for TS. I expect their first release in TSW at a high quality level. This will be a first day purchase. I want to support the development team with a kind word and a purchase of their product. I wish ATC good luck in their projects and a decent reward for the authors for their work. I really hope that we will see a route in the near future and it will not be the only one from this team of authors.

 

So, as a Console player and rail enthusiast.

I used to watch the Alan Thomson streams back in the days of TSW and TSW 2, But stopped when they just became so negative all the time, Life is too short to watch stuff you don't enjoy.

When I heard they were making their own route I was like "Finally, a chance for him to put his money where his mouth is." But it's now been what feels like years and with confirmation that deadlines have been missed and apparent confirmation of a Toxic workplace, it seems he really has put his money where his mouth is and this is seemingly a dead duck. I imagine it'll be sent out to die at some point in the dim and distant future so ATS and TSW can wash their hands of it and move on.

This will be the first UK DLC I won't purchase. I won't reward bad work place policy but those that do eventually buy it for TSW7 I hope they enjoy it.

 

What about other developers, who miss deadlines? I assume the devs would also have to wait longer for a payout. Would it not work the same way at Rivet, JT or anywhere else?
Maybe ATS is not beeing fair to people, I don´t know. But it does seem strange how ATS contracters seem to try and resolve these conflicts in public over and over again. I can see how "back and forth" like this eventually leads to court cases and big drama. Shame really...

 

Don't think things have not tried to be resolved behind closed doors, they have, also appreciate that it should never get to that point. Bumps can happen which cause some minor delays sure but when your talking months upon months thats when it quite frankly takes the mick. Profit share or not, no one should be expected to wait over a year after they finished their work to receive payment of any kind.

 

I think it is only right thing to draw a close to the debate and discussion about the behind the scenes work now. I think the information is clearly out there for people to see, should they be interested and want to side with a party or remain indifferent... All I can say from my own perspective as it's opened my eyes and have formed an opinion.

I think moving forward the discussion should go back to being around the route itself, and not behind the scenes work, which is now out there for people to see and for the discussion to now remain diplomatic and refocus on the route itself.

(Not trying to be a moderator at all, just trying to keep the peace).

 

Completely agree

 

Think the moral of this story can be summed up fairly succinctly...

If you're considering getting into the payware scene, think long and hard. Don't believe the figures those running the developers bandy about. When I first hooked up with 3DTS all sorts of wild figures were quoted for likely royalties, Cayman Island level numbers. Instead I got probably less than £3k net for Cambrian Coast once allowing for income tax and in return I sacrificed pretty much all my spare and gaming time for a year to do it.

It's highly unlikely it will amount to more than a bit of hobby money - not going to pay the mortgage or put food on the table. Plus the added hassle of self declaring all taxable income for several years after even if your main job is PAYE. (And if you decide not to declare, they will find out...).

Make sure the basis on which you get paid is agreed and signed off by all parties. Don't be surprised if you have to apply pressure to get information on sales figures and actually get paid (Blue Arrow).

In short, do it for love of the game and the project you're working on, not £££ or $$$ flashing in the eyes.

And back on topic, I'm sure if and when the route surfaces it will be great, but without going to Crewe or including a new train it will at best be a 50% or better off sale item for me.

 

I definitely wouldn't agree with that!

 

In case anyone was wondering, ATS having a back & forth in public over devs being paid or not, is very on brand for them.

Personally I’d just scrub the comments & get the usual discussion back on track, rather than lock the thread.

 

Personally I wouldn't go anywhere near profit sharing as it seems like a very unfair system that punishes hard working employees

 

It´s common for TSC though from I´ve heard over the years... that´s why I stuck with freeware. Not worth the hassle. In some cases profit sharing can get you ALOT more money than a normal wage though. It really depends.

 

Ah i've only just seen this my bad

 

That's pretty much true of most arts (including theatre, painting etc) and sports*. The top handful do very well, but 99% of those who are good enough to do it professionally struggle to make a living. Competition is ferocious, because there are many more people in love with the work, who will do it for next to nothing, than there are professional vacancies.

*perhaps excepting soccer. B-i-L is head of PE at a large school and every year he sees one or two pupils who are naturally gifted at sports and can play most - tennis, golf, cricket, football - really well. Every few years there'll be one who's good enough to try to go professional.. Their parents usually ask which sport to go for, and the advice is always the same: "Soccer, because if they're in the top 5 in the country at tennis, they'll barely break even; but if they're in the top 500 at soccer, they'll have a big house in Cheshire and a Range Rover on the drive".

Sorry for dragging us so far off topic.

 

How are you able to make this claim? Do you have some evidence to back it up? It's been years since consoles were the main driver for growth in the gaming industry. Certainly I can't seem to fathom, that there are more train enthusiasts on consoles, where they were never catered to (apart from the wonderful Densha De GO!), than there are on an established PC simming scene (not to mention the install base, even).

Ah, yes. Words of wisdom from a PC player with a face. Don't smash it on the way down from your high horse.

I am a console player and I hang out on the forums. I am free to do whatever I please with my income, just as you are with yourself. I reckon you will not be buying this product, and I probably will.

Hearing the interesting story from Kezz certainly sheds some light on the difficult development of this DLC, and I feel for everyone involved. However, I do not understand how boycotting anything improves things for developers, especially those on a profit-sharing scheme. Let's not buy the product, because creators are treated like dirt, though if we do that, they won't get any money in addition to being treated that way. Peak intelligence right there.

 

Thank you. Stand by your principles and never be bullied or cajoled into anything that you are not comfortable with. There are always 2 sides to a story and I, for one, appreciate your insight.

 

DTG aren’t really helping themselves by repeatedly staying silent are they?….stop taking punters for fools!

 

Back on topic please.

What's interesting about the route?
This is getting too into ATS's management structure and company standards.

 

Good point. I really liked the screenshots. Nice graphics and the airport station is really wel modelled. I like the idea of another modern UK commuter route like that.

 

As ever, I'll judge whether to buy this route on its live stream. If it's without obvious flaws, I'll get it and enjoy it. If not, I'll await sales and mods.

 

I'll get on topic then.

As someone with plenty of other DLC I am not necessarily disappointed with no new rolling stock, if it comes with interesting additional layers. Was there any mention of layering plans? Do we expect a busy timetable? What could we expect from the reasons already out there UK experts? (I am not a UK train expert in on the slightest, don't know what trains use that route IRL that we could reasonably expect)

 

Class 390, Class 158 (Scotrail), Class 66 (probably). That’s all of the top of my head

 

Class 331 and 195.

 

We don't have either of those though

 

From the december reveals article:
Included with the route is the Class 323 Northern and Class 66, with additional layers for the Class 350, 390 Pendolino and ScotRail Class 158.

 

We may do in the future.

But then this timetable would need to be built with those in mind, which I doubt will happen.

 

Yes it all looks nice. Just I'm not sure it's worth it for a 323.

 

I think a route DLC can be worth it without new rolling stock. From what I have seen so far, this route seems to be.

 

For me a route like this needs a lot of AI and generally a busy timetable otherwise I fear it will be Glossop Mk11. So the timetable and overall standard of the route will be the deciding factors if this makes it a day 1 purchase. The lack of new rolling stock doesn’t really enter the equation.

 

They promised a full timetable. With plenty AI traffic. Especially at Piccadilly: if they can replicate what has been done to Glasgow central in the Cathcart remaster, then that's a win.

Edit: Would be great if that stuff is retroactively added to Glossop too. If only a busy Piccadilly with Pendolino's

 

I'd definitely be more encouraged to buy this route if they bundled in a Glossop AI timetable.

 

Will wait the final product before I make a decision but really getting tired of routes finishing at a random point. Can’t buy into the immersion at all doing part routes.

For long mainlines, I get it. Those make sense, although still feel those should be at logical crew change points, where possible.

 

Many feel that way, they say it isn't feasible to produce routes properly. A lot of compromising.

 

To be honest, I'm the other way around, I'd rather have the option to do part-timetable runs and enjoy a 20 minute drive, than all the services on a route be 1 hour plus.

I rather wish there was an option in TSW to select the number of stops along a timetable service you want to operate then it would finish your session at a set station. Not realistic, but more achievable for a player with limited time.

 

I think that each route author makes a very difficult choice and makes a lot of compromises before starting work on the route. There are many external factors that determine the route points, its length and functionality.
Personally, in my opinion, the route should offer maximum variety. It should contain short and long sessions, slow and high-speed trips, freight and passenger services, both in suburban and regional traffic, work on the main line and maneuvers in freight yards, moving to the depot and maintenance of rolling stock. This will allow to satisfy any demand.
There is no need to invent anything new regarding the length of the routes and their final points. TS has come a long way in development and has determined the preferences of the community, which can be taken into account during development in TSW.
For me personally, it is important to get an extension of the routes or the ability to combine and edit (improve) them, as it is implemented in TS.
Depending on my desire, I can download the basic route and go through its career scenario. Another day I might load the combined route and walk the long way through a custom scenario.

 

Alan Thomson You able to give us a timeline when it could be released or just like is it near release? Dying to see Manchester Picadilly Busy with 390s 158s and 350s etc. Be great to see.

 

there is quite a bit of rolling stock that can be used in route if things were worked right
to start out the box you have the 390/66/323
then you have the 158 although I'm still puzzled as to why the scot rail one when you have the EMR one that's out the box ready to go.
the 350 whilst its in unbranded LNWR would fit and don't forget that ATS have done a lot of TPX stuff for TSC so maybe a reskin at some point.
you also have the upcoming 150 and 153 TfW units which would fit straight in, I always felt sorry for the poor souls coming that far on them when i saw them on Stockport viaduct.
the 150 then would only need a reskin into branded or unbranded northern for another unit.
who knows ATS may even have had thought on bringing the 185 over from TSC
so there is alot of potential for this route to shine with stuff that's there or in development

 

Ex-Scotrail 158s did run services in the area.