Enough Is Enough!!! The Ongoing Saga!!! It's Almost The 3 Year Anniversary

Train Sim World 2 is on sale on Steam for $20

 

I must admit Incredible trains did kick ass by showing us a great stream tonight. I'm happy they've shown and delivered an amazing timetable and shown a lot of potential what routes can really entail shame we haven't got the extended route or release that we wanted how I believe this guy is speculating on the success of the release of the route and spend more time developing it. I guess this factor will come from popularity and how much the community requests it.

But I'm quite optimistic about this release, so fingers crossed it's done well.

 

So Rivet Games is looking for a junior world builder, I think they’re preparing something for TSW6 for their comeback. I’m really curious about the outcome of their attempt at making a DLC for the forever-game The Bus !

 

Junior world builder, full time job for an apprentice salary, since Rivet apparently regards itself as senior route builders?

 

the pictures of the three routes together looks really cool

I also notice the 378 livery is in the new livery, rather than the one seen on NLL

 

I can't see a salary mentioned, nor do companies tend to occupy roles within themselves, but, never the less, this is a chance for so many of you, with all your expertise, to get on the inside and show them how it's done. Principal route builder within weeks, I'm sure!

 

Is it a world-builder who is junior, or a person who builds junior worlds?

 

How junior do they need to be? I know a plucky 9 year old who could give it a go.

 

March Roadmap: CTRL + F + RailDriver = zero results

 

It actually should have said junior "water boiler for the tea run" but a few words were broken (and never fixed) before the ad was officially released and the sentence ended at an unnatural point in order to save time and resources

Not many people know this but they're actually called Riveting Gnomes but you know, broken words that never get fixed....

 

cant wait to see their next mess up.
depends... scotrail HST please rivet?

Anyway, a thing that i saw on the TSC server with the recent north london line add-on. Saw a lot of parts of a train becoming disloacted, plenty bugs found on trains, heard optimisation wise its bad because apparently it has the entire london in it.
Something something they chewed more than what they can chew. Here it is, we listen to fanboys and this is what we get. No offence to incredible trains but there is a reason why 3rd party developers like Rivet (as bad as they might be) even have a team behind their add-ons. This route should've been freed up from time constraint, proper game testing and might as well extend the route to make it more worth it. Anybody say people who bought the add on shouldn't complain just because its a single dev shouldn't be an excuse to be voided of any criticism (as much as how apparently the entirety of london was still modeled in and is good for exploration you normally cant even access these locations). Glad I didnt bought the route on day one.

 

Reminds me years ago of the guy who proclaimed he was going to do the entire ECML from Kings Cross to Edinburgh for MSTS in super detail (think he was called Rob something and went by the handle of “Going North” on the former UKTS forum). Quite apart from the small matter of the MSTS 2000 object per tile limit, most of that detail will be lost on whizzing by at 100 MPH plus, looking out the cab window. Needless to say after a couple of early WIP screenshots, the guy was never heard from again. I mean yes, conversely you have the Run 8 approach particularly on their South East routes where the scenery consists of a tree avenue alongside the track and bare terrain beyond.

Any route builder worth their salt knows optimisation is the name of the game. We are building a linear route, not a GTA or Fallout world area. Focus on what can be seen from the train, either the cab or side windows, maybe exterior view at ground level. But the wannabe helicopter pilots should not be the main focus when it comes to planning the scenery.

 

Hmm, not sure I agree with that. Yesterday I had a drive on the old Sand Patch. When I drive that or any route, I mostly use external cameras and frequently fly around or ahead of my train ( as Matt likes to do in streams ). Just sitting in the cab looking through front and side windows is very boring to me.

So being able to fly around and even go walkabout is a big part of the immersion for me. So route builders need to be nonlinear if they want my business. I need " the World " in Train Sim World.

 

I've driven a couple of routes on tsc where the scenery spans not that far from either side of the tracks, and it doesn't look the best in external camera view.

When I build routes I tend to place scenery as far as the camera can see or free camera can travel. I wouldn't say it taxes performance as the distant scenery is 2d low resolution.

 

Which is why there needs to be a compromise. Further out from the track you go for lower poly objects, you don’t replicate the detailed street layout just mix and match the buildings and trees. Think of a route as a movie set, where the art is in creating the illusion that people are on the middle of a large city or vast desert, rather than the studio backlot at Pinewood or Universal!

I haven’t bought NLL and don't really intend to but I can’t help get the feeling the author might have done a “Going North” with it and gone over the top with detailed scenery. Not the first time we have seen a TSW route author get carried away. Remember the first iteration of Sherman when hi poly 3D grass was plonked down on the terrain all the way to the horizon? That route required major surgery to get it running acceptably.

 

My train goodness why can’t we just fire Rivet. They are so bad I want them gone.
They ruined WCMLS already.

 

There's probably some sort of contract in place. Can't just "fire" them.

 

I've played it a few times. Running vanilla settings, the performance isnt bad for me. I'm averaging 100fps.
I'm gonna use the jetwash ini file later and see what happens.

Then I have got 32gb ram and 16gb vram.
And it is using a lot of that.

 

yea a contract that it was completely disclosed...
a contract shouldn't have even been done in the first place because DTG dont care nor listen to its playerbases criticism to routes. It was only when they realise rivet messed up WCMLS is was when they picked up the bits and asked community for help. Shouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

Now, let's stay fair. Yes, Rivet always messes up something in their addons, but there are also things they do very well. And even though WCML has its problems, many of them were fixed, and there are far worse routes in TSW. Without Rivet, we would either get fewer routes per year, or worse, the same amount but rushed, which ends in things like MKN.

 

The much worse routes are mostly those of Rivet so....
I prefer to have less routes per year than horrible routes but at least there are plenty of routes on TSW

 

my problem is that, they made a launch route for TSW. I mean yea its good for them but it looks bad for TSW as a whole. At least personally i think every new iteration (as much frustrating as it may be) should have all 3 routes build by DTG themselves and nobody else. At least show us the best you got not a crappy routes that i cant even get to rugby or birmingham (which once again TSC offers that TSW doesnt).
I dont want every new game to give us a new low. And thats Rivet.

 

Speaking of rivet, I've just posted yet another reminder in the Fife circle feedback thread for them to fix the running sounds which they broke with the first patch.

I find it pretty disgusting neither rivet who made and broke the thing, or dovetail who are selling on their behalf and presumably taking a percentage cut are doing anything about it. You'd think they'd have at least some respect for their customers who actually bought it and for the product they're creating and selling but it seems like they just don't care.

 

Even DTG don't listen to feedback threads for their own routes. Why would Rivet?

 

Not sure ‘comeback’ is the appropriate term here, as it suggests a return to a previous level of popularity…

 

That contract would have been in place since TSW began.

As far as it is concerned, the contract hasn't been breached.

It probably only says to develop routes that DTG can publish and that people will buy.

That's being fulfilled. People are still buying Rivet stuff. There's always someone to buy something, even if a small percentage of the playerbase (which these forums are) are against it.

 

Hey I was trying to be nice lol . You’re right they’ll be back at the same level of quality they left. In my opinion they better stick to Swiss content.

 

Rivet clearly don’t care, or else they’d acknowledge the displeasure in the community and then at least attempt fixes, West Cornwall Local is a classic case of a route being totally abandoned, and you can go further. There have been some good points too, the updated IOW line was great, but then their involvement in routes WCMLS totally smashed that reputation for me.

 

Probably half the reason rivet closed down their forums

 

honestly if everyone would agree, i would probably set up a new thread about a petition on getting rid of/firing rivet. DTG is inexcusable in this case that a rivet project is disguised as a DTG product, its just not acceptable. Higher ups and developers should be held accountable on how they treat their customers god damn it.

 

No point. For the purposes of TSW production you may as well treat Rivet and DTG as one company. They have a very longstanding partnership that goes back to the start up of both companies. They are intrinsically linked. DTG sacking off Rivet would be like England kicking Wales out of the UK. It just isn’t going to happen. You would be wasting your time making a petition and people are generally wasting their time going on about Rivet all the time in the forum as it won’t change anything. DTG will always use Rivet as a subcontractor.

 

If DTG get rid of Rivet, TSW would ironically be worse off than it already is.

DTG getting rid of their closest partner wouldn't do much good.

 

Rivet must be doing something right as they appear to be living rent free in so many peoples heads!

 

DTG need Rivet, they’re one of the best third party developers on the game. People adore them.

 

When they put their minds to it, DTG can deliver decent products without Rivet's involvement. The Gospel Oak to Barking line is a decent example, despite that route being boring-ish. Then again, DTG might not have enough in-house developers so the quality of routes could drop.

 

Yep, I cant even argue with this, they live rent free in the heads of many of us, put in what is probably the least amount of effort as it shows in their content and yet they probably get paid the same because people in this community just cant resist buying every single DLC released no matter how bad it is. If nobody bought the content they would be forced to do better, but we know that never works. And as much as I hate to admit it gets to a point where I cannot even fully blame Rivet, even though they really should do better.

 

Just because rivet helped doesn't make a dlc the most horrible dlc. There are things rivet are good at and their own dlc isn't bad either. Look at all the other dlc that don't get good reviews that are not made by rivet. How come those developers like dtg or skyhook don't need to get fired then

 

Rivet are definitely one of the, let's say less competant developers for TSW. They "helped out" on WCML South, which even now isn't the greatest. Many players still have a sour taste in their mouths from that, so it's perfectly reasonable to be cautious at anything Rivet-related.

 

Skyhook took affirmative action after the disaster that was the launch of MML, which then became one of the better UK routes in the game. They also stepped back from route building, perhaps realising it was not their strongest point.

Rivet on the other hand lurch along from one disastrous route release to another, they can't even fix an erroneous speed limit on the St Ives branch which has been mentioned numerous times including direct pings to Jasper. And DTG just seem to sit on their hands with regard to taking any responsibility for shoddy work which they have published in their e-commerce outlets.

 

People guess and speculate, but the truth is none of us really knows who is involved in building the routes and trains that DTG publishes, including the one you mention. People think they know but they really don't.

 

Mmmm. I’ve been through the grind of all this and I’m taking back that there are still grumbles.

So here is my take on it. I had have TSW2020 and that was flash in the pan before TSW2. TSW2 had many issues even including add ons DLC content. I have fallen fowl to the dark side of buying content. Even now in TSW5 has the route I bought in TSW3 that being Cane Creek and it’s loco I still can’t edit. Many faults that is wildly excepted as part of the parcel so to speak. That cycle has continued with TS4 but not as bad as the earlier titles. These titles I feel was a fan base project in its growth stages, and possibly as a studio and it’s direction.
Growing in the wider market such as on consoles. I felt I supported them and so do others. This is where I feel when certain things happen may seem like a kick to the face.

Now what does this mean for us the consumer of products that have quality issues on release? And long standing customers of the franchise but now longer feel they want part of what they feel is a cash cow set up. I personally felt that way after TSW4 came out not long after TSW3, but with TSW5 I’m not sure I feel the same. Especially since the price is relatively cheap compared to other massive titles. That bleed you dry long after you have bought it. Such as micro purchases for Skins or silly coin packs. For example I paid 14,99 for stupid lights and smoke on Motorfest. Vanity. But for 4.99 I could by a loco and extra services which also add to more traffic on TSW5.
As of today I am very content and since my return noticed a vast improvement in the PR.

So I will focus on that question of what does it all mean for past customers. Well I could brutally say if you don’t like the quality then seek money back and move on. If not and choose like I did to carry on and support the teams or studio we may finally have what we have always wanted. Again I only paid 25 quid for the standard pack and then added what locos I wanted. It has given and will give me hours of entertainment too much in fact.
But for those grumbling or have issue of game no longer being updated short of makes sense. ONLY if the customer accepts the score with TSW products. This is essentially and will probably only accept if they have followed and bought TSW5.
Anyway those that have (Edit) not continued and has ended with TSW3 will be feeling bitter if the game is still in poor shape and perfectly It’s understandable. I’ve been there.

This tho was a decision made years back and like I originally stated that if at the time of purchase not happy or prepared to support what seemed like a growing studio then seek money back and move on.
By all means I am not letting DTG get of that easy tho as again we could say if a product isn’t what we come to expect then is that bad business practice or again a company doing what it can in its current situation. Even the technical aspects that may or may have not been around. PS4 may have not been able to deal with the complexity yet new gens can. I take this in to consideration with TSW and what the devs can and can’t do.

But if the game has been worked on and all fixes that can be resolved technically wise then in that the game is complete and fit for purpose as it should from date of sale?. Or age of production. Here I see the problem about online games or purchasing content.
Yet I will not go down that route. But if I go back to the days of NES and 8Bit consoles then if a game was released it was probably good to go. Why because the option to add updates was never an option. Today tho the technology has moved on and so has the whole gaming industry. Is TSW a online game? Or Just a game. Like in the past I buy a game and it did what it said on the tin.
If the game was poor (Replacing Word) then it would get a bad review and sales would reflect that.
The same applies here to aspects of a customer approach and a business model. We buy a game if it’s bad we move on.
The company gets bad reviews and I’m sure sales figures will reflect that. Yet if we stick with it and them as a studio then hopefully we can move on and so does the company in providing titles such as TSW5.

I’ll wrap up with saying as a long standing customer I’ve seen the downs sides but I’m I am still here.
And am I happy of it all. With TSW5 then I can say with confidence I am over the Moon.

I think it was all about supporting DTG as studio. If not then those not seeing as this should have left got their money and placed there money somewhere else.

Why because I truly feel DTG got there,,regardless of the ups and down.

 

Excatly. Rivet is just bad influence.

so making this point utterly useless.

Sorry just what can we do with incompetent developers then?

And hey at least skyhook (as bad as many bug it was during first release) knows to fix their route. And honestly wish they make more route/trains tbh... i really love the MML route after it was fixed. and credit to where its due at least it was DTG who made up to fix up the WCMLS because rivet is just terrible and a horrible 3rd party. Rethinking i dont even know would they consider fixing if it werent because of the community.
Its either not buy their product or give backslash at Rivet.

 

I’ll agree to that. And also on the comment your response is too then if I could just add on the staffing front. Not sure if the same applies in the gaming industry in what we in the coach industry would call. Subbing or Higher in. Possibly set up on a long term contract.
Such as we did (Shearings) with First Travel for Train replacement services.

We found that by using our fleet on our own options and adding serves left the traffic office and the fleet to the max.
But did we buy or set up a new lease for coaches. No we sub contracted. Cheaper and less hassle to have a massive infrastructure in place.

Such as large offices and depots. All cost money to implement. But when subbing out,,,then it was as easy as a fax. Yes it was that far back. Take a firm called Swans Travel. Reno was the owner and he did lots of work, why because he wanted it to invest in new fleets. That fleet he would use on our tour program because he had the reputation and quality of service we look for when providing for Shearings customers.
He dealt with all the problems with his staff and what it takes in operation of a coach company.

So is DTG doing the same, by outsourcing work to reliable companies such as Just for Trains. DTG creates the content direction and then a separate company develops the product. Cheaper all around because no need for massive staffing costs,,even staff holidays and other foreseen situations are all like to impact small teams or studios. So if that’s the case then is it more valuable to outsource work and so this is why we see more and more of this happening.

 

I wouldn't say they live rent free. We pay for their routes only for them to break it and walk away with the full support of dovetail to leave what we've paid for broken.

 

The thing is, people can guess their work by just looking at the hallmarks... I remember even before the leak, there was a screenshot of the time table to WCMLS and that was just a hairline fracture indicating Rivets involvement, which got the ball rolling in the community and suspicions arose near enough instantly. To what extent Rivet were involved will never be officially confirmed, but I certainly think they were responsible for the whole project minus the Class 390 which I believe was a in-house product by DTG. The 350 has had its physics modified numerous times since its release... The hallmarks of Rivets involvement on the 350 are there. The two giveaway things for me are the ability to open the cab windows on a % basis, rather then simply open and close them, and the naming of the Combined Brake/Accelerator to CPBT or CPBC (one or the other) which only Rivet use on their own rolling stock... And then we have the route itself which is still not particularly as good as it could be and thats with improvements being made. The guess work early on appears to have been completely right... So I wouldn't dismiss it, the eagle eyed people recognised it and were right in that instance.

If the negative hallmarks of their work weren't so evident it wouldn't matter who work was outsourced to do content and work. But the hallmarks are what let the content down from the ground up and with Rivet your lucky to get any resolutions long term to any bugs in their content.

More frustratingly DTG are more then well aware of the issues concerning Rivets products but seems to defend them (WCMLS saga for example. That annoyed me! Rather then take accountability, we were told Rivets feelings were hurt!) or give them glowing reviews around their work... Are they genuinely naive or do they honestly just want to bury their heads in the sand around Rivets shoddy work? Aslong as Rivet draw in revenue for them and take your money they won't ever be held accountable for the quality of their work. I just find it frustrating that the clear and articulate feedback that is given to improve Rivets work goes in one ear and out the other...

My opinions about Rivets involvement in Cardiff City Network and WCMLS still stand, and one of them seems to have been proven to be more then just a guess. I don't think it's people guessing for the sake of starting arguments or being spiteful, I believe their guesses seem to be based on evidence and the recurring themes that give Rivets work away a mile off.

 

They can when they want to, but they obviously don't have the capacity to do it themselves as Rivet have been involved in a few routes I think.

So, getting rid of that extra help would probably make things worse.

 

Rivet have reportedly helped with some of DTG's in-house routes. Plus, given their modelling is pretty much spot on, they probably made a lot of the trains as well.

DTG need to release a set number of DLcs ler year to make money (presumably, as they can't really rely on one or two per year given their business model relies on a steady stream of DLCs) They don't have the resources to do it all in-house (I remember it being said they have 55 people working 3 months per route). So, Rivet have to step in to help, whether as a 2nd party or by making their own stuff.

Rivet are not incompetent. Their strengths are just not being utilised properly. I don't fully blame them for that, DTG should know and capitalise on where their 3rd parties excel. But they don't. Which results in Rivet doing something they're clearly not good at.

 

The reality seems to be that DTG needs to meet a quota, remembering that this quota needs to also include innovative product to be able to penetrate a deeper market. This will have a tendency to stretch existing resources. They need to make the editing tools more available and useable to competent 3rd party to help troubleshoot the released product in the field. One may assume that base product is QA tested on a clean rig with only DTG derived product. What users ‘actually’ have on their rigs may be where some of the disconnect happens. For users of TSC we have found it useful to be able to go in and ‘optimize’ code where appropriate. For users of consoles this option would prove more difficult. Time to open up the editing tool set and enable some of the superusers me thinks!