Enough Is Enough!!!

DTG need Rivet, they’re one of the best third party developers on the game. People adore them.

 

When they put their minds to it, DTG can deliver decent products without Rivet's involvement. The Gospel Oak to Barking line is a decent example, despite that route being boring-ish. Then again, DTG might not have enough in-house developers so the quality of routes could drop.

 

Yep, I cant even argue with this, they live rent free in the heads of many of us, put in what is probably the least amount of effort as it shows in their content and yet they probably get paid the same because people in this community just cant resist buying every single DLC released no matter how bad it is. If nobody bought the content they would be forced to do better, but we know that never works. And as much as I hate to admit it gets to a point where I cannot even fully blame Rivet, even though they really should do better.

 

Just because rivet helped doesn't make a dlc the most horrible dlc. There are things rivet are good at and their own dlc isn't bad either. Look at all the other dlc that don't get good reviews that are not made by rivet. How come those developers like dtg or skyhook don't need to get fired then

 

Rivet are definitely one of the, let's say less competant developers for TSW. They "helped out" on WCML South, which even now isn't the greatest. Many players still have a sour taste in their mouths from that, so it's perfectly reasonable to be cautious at anything Rivet-related.

 

Skyhook took affirmative action after the disaster that was the launch of MML, which then became one of the better UK routes in the game. They also stepped back from route building, perhaps realising it was not their strongest point.

Rivet on the other hand lurch along from one disastrous route release to another, they can't even fix an erroneous speed limit on the St Ives branch which has been mentioned numerous times including direct pings to Jasper. And DTG just seem to sit on their hands with regard to taking any responsibility for shoddy work which they have published in their e-commerce outlets.

 

People guess and speculate, but the truth is none of us really knows who is involved in building the routes and trains that DTG publishes, including the one you mention. People think they know but they really don't.

 

Mmmm. I’ve been through the grind of all this and I’m taking back that there are still grumbles.

So here is my take on it. I had have TSW2020 and that was flash in the pan before TSW2. TSW2 had many issues even including add ons DLC content. I have fallen fowl to the dark side of buying content. Even now in TSW5 has the route I bought in TSW3 that being Cane Creek and it’s loco I still can’t edit. Many faults that is wildly excepted as part of the parcel so to speak. That cycle has continued with TS4 but not as bad as the earlier titles. These titles I feel was a fan base project in its growth stages, and possibly as a studio and it’s direction.
Growing in the wider market such as on consoles. I felt I supported them and so do others. This is where I feel when certain things happen may seem like a kick to the face.

Now what does this mean for us the consumer of products that have quality issues on release? And long standing customers of the franchise but now longer feel they want part of what they feel is a cash cow set up. I personally felt that way after TSW4 came out not long after TSW3, but with TSW5 I’m not sure I feel the same. Especially since the price is relatively cheap compared to other massive titles. That bleed you dry long after you have bought it. Such as micro purchases for Skins or silly coin packs. For example I paid 14,99 for stupid lights and smoke on Motorfest. Vanity. But for 4.99 I could by a loco and extra services which also add to more traffic on TSW5.
As of today I am very content and since my return noticed a vast improvement in the PR.

So I will focus on that question of what does it all mean for past customers. Well I could brutally say if you don’t like the quality then seek money back and move on. If not and choose like I did to carry on and support the teams or studio we may finally have what we have always wanted. Again I only paid 25 quid for the standard pack and then added what locos I wanted. It has given and will give me hours of entertainment too much in fact.
But for those grumbling or have issue of game no longer being updated short of makes sense. ONLY if the customer accepts the score with TSW products. This is essentially and will probably only accept if they have followed and bought TSW5.
Anyway those that have (Edit) not continued and has ended with TSW3 will be feeling bitter if the game is still in poor shape and perfectly It’s understandable. I’ve been there.

This tho was a decision made years back and like I originally stated that if at the time of purchase not happy or prepared to support what seemed like a growing studio then seek money back and move on.
By all means I am not letting DTG get of that easy tho as again we could say if a product isn’t what we come to expect then is that bad business practice or again a company doing what it can in its current situation. Even the technical aspects that may or may have not been around. PS4 may have not been able to deal with the complexity yet new gens can. I take this in to consideration with TSW and what the devs can and can’t do.

But if the game has been worked on and all fixes that can be resolved technically wise then in that the game is complete and fit for purpose as it should from date of sale?. Or age of production. Here I see the problem about online games or purchasing content.
Yet I will not go down that route. But if I go back to the days of NES and 8Bit consoles then if a game was released it was probably good to go. Why because the option to add updates was never an option. Today tho the technology has moved on and so has the whole gaming industry. Is TSW a online game? Or Just a game. Like in the past I buy a game and it did what it said on the tin.
If the game was poor (Replacing Word) then it would get a bad review and sales would reflect that.
The same applies here to aspects of a customer approach and a business model. We buy a game if it’s bad we move on.
The company gets bad reviews and I’m sure sales figures will reflect that. Yet if we stick with it and them as a studio then hopefully we can move on and so does the company in providing titles such as TSW5.

I’ll wrap up with saying as a long standing customer I’ve seen the downs sides but I’m I am still here.
And am I happy of it all. With TSW5 then I can say with confidence I am over the Moon.

I think it was all about supporting DTG as studio. If not then those not seeing as this should have left got their money and placed there money somewhere else.

Why because I truly feel DTG got there,,regardless of the ups and down.

 

Excatly. Rivet is just bad influence.

so making this point utterly useless.

Sorry just what can we do with incompetent developers then?

And hey at least skyhook (as bad as many bug it was during first release) knows to fix their route. And honestly wish they make more route/trains tbh... i really love the MML route after it was fixed. and credit to where its due at least it was DTG who made up to fix up the WCMLS because rivet is just terrible and a horrible 3rd party. Rethinking i dont even know would they consider fixing if it werent because of the community.
Its either not buy their product or give backslash at Rivet.

 

I’ll agree to that. And also on the comment your response is too then if I could just add on the staffing front. Not sure if the same applies in the gaming industry in what we in the coach industry would call. Subbing or Higher in. Possibly set up on a long term contract.
Such as we did (Shearings) with First Travel for Train replacement services.

We found that by using our fleet on our own options and adding serves left the traffic office and the fleet to the max.
But did we buy or set up a new lease for coaches. No we sub contracted. Cheaper and less hassle to have a massive infrastructure in place.

Such as large offices and depots. All cost money to implement. But when subbing out,,,then it was as easy as a fax. Yes it was that far back. Take a firm called Swans Travel. Reno was the owner and he did lots of work, why because he wanted it to invest in new fleets. That fleet he would use on our tour program because he had the reputation and quality of service we look for when providing for Shearings customers.
He dealt with all the problems with his staff and what it takes in operation of a coach company.

So is DTG doing the same, by outsourcing work to reliable companies such as Just for Trains. DTG creates the content direction and then a separate company develops the product. Cheaper all around because no need for massive staffing costs,,even staff holidays and other foreseen situations are all like to impact small teams or studios. So if that’s the case then is it more valuable to outsource work and so this is why we see more and more of this happening.

 

I wouldn't say they live rent free. We pay for their routes only for them to break it and walk away with the full support of dovetail to leave what we've paid for broken.

 

The thing is, people can guess their work by just looking at the hallmarks... I remember even before the leak, there was a screenshot of the time table to WCMLS and that was just a hairline fracture indicating Rivets involvement, which got the ball rolling in the community and suspicions arose near enough instantly. To what extent Rivet were involved will never be officially confirmed, but I certainly think they were responsible for the whole project minus the Class 390 which I believe was a in-house product by DTG. The 350 has had its physics modified numerous times since its release... The hallmarks of Rivets involvement on the 350 are there. The two giveaway things for me are the ability to open the cab windows on a % basis, rather then simply open and close them, and the naming of the Combined Brake/Accelerator to CPBT or CPBC (one or the other) which only Rivet use on their own rolling stock... And then we have the route itself which is still not particularly as good as it could be and thats with improvements being made. The guess work early on appears to have been completely right... So I wouldn't dismiss it, the eagle eyed people recognised it and were right in that instance.

If the negative hallmarks of their work weren't so evident it wouldn't matter who work was outsourced to do content and work. But the hallmarks are what let the content down from the ground up and with Rivet your lucky to get any resolutions long term to any bugs in their content.

More frustratingly DTG are more then well aware of the issues concerning Rivets products but seems to defend them (WCMLS saga for example. That annoyed me! Rather then take accountability, we were told Rivets feelings were hurt!) or give them glowing reviews around their work... Are they genuinely naive or do they honestly just want to bury their heads in the sand around Rivets shoddy work? Aslong as Rivet draw in revenue for them and take your money they won't ever be held accountable for the quality of their work. I just find it frustrating that the clear and articulate feedback that is given to improve Rivets work goes in one ear and out the other...

My opinions about Rivets involvement in Cardiff City Network and WCMLS still stand, and one of them seems to have been proven to be more then just a guess. I don't think it's people guessing for the sake of starting arguments or being spiteful, I believe their guesses seem to be based on evidence and the recurring themes that give Rivets work away a mile off.

 

They can when they want to, but they obviously don't have the capacity to do it themselves as Rivet have been involved in a few routes I think.

So, getting rid of that extra help would probably make things worse.

 

Rivet have reportedly helped with some of DTG's in-house routes. Plus, given their modelling is pretty much spot on, they probably made a lot of the trains as well.

DTG need to release a set number of DLcs ler year to make money (presumably, as they can't really rely on one or two per year given their business model relies on a steady stream of DLCs) They don't have the resources to do it all in-house (I remember it being said they have 55 people working 3 months per route). So, Rivet have to step in to help, whether as a 2nd party or by making their own stuff.

Rivet are not incompetent. Their strengths are just not being utilised properly. I don't fully blame them for that, DTG should know and capitalise on where their 3rd parties excel. But they don't. Which results in Rivet doing something they're clearly not good at.

 

The reality seems to be that DTG needs to meet a quota, remembering that this quota needs to also include innovative product to be able to penetrate a deeper market. This will have a tendency to stretch existing resources. They need to make the editing tools more available and useable to competent 3rd party to help troubleshoot the released product in the field. One may assume that base product is QA tested on a clean rig with only DTG derived product. What users ‘actually’ have on their rigs may be where some of the disconnect happens. For users of TSC we have found it useful to be able to go in and ‘optimize’ code where appropriate. For users of consoles this option would prove more difficult. Time to open up the editing tool set and enable some of the superusers me thinks!

 

Definitely won't work for consoles, everything must be certified so there is no way to add mods, unless you pay for them to be certified.

And unfortunatley the OS systems don't run the same as PC's either. The reason DTG have to make a version for PC and 9th gen then lower down for 8 gen, is that the file systems are different between PC and Console, so they have to make at least 3 versions (or maybe 2 but I believe PS and Xbox use different OS's and file systems between each other as well.)

So one PC, one for Sony and one for MS. And just descale for 8th gen and Series S.

So modding will never happen for the console market, it alot more restrictive than PC on what you can add, and change to files.

 

Last count I heard from DTG was seven builds--PS & Xbox 8th & 9th gen (4 total), PC Steam & Epic, and I forget the seventh.

 

Think it was Xbox Gamepass for PC.

 

business reason is not a reason that we should be excused off. Why are we giving empathy on a company that doesnt work their team out well when its clearly their problem. Its more or less DTG is relying on them to do their product. And they are incompetent when as if you already didnt ignore the previous posts here, Rivet developers refuses to hear feedback and thats called ignorant and being incompetent.
i dont care is it pointless or not but stop defending Rivet and DTG for giving us a bad product and poor management on their side. How much is it do we have to withstand this? I said this on the TSC server and i will say it again, every time a DTG/Rivet product releases it pretty much the food you got served is undercook then tell the chefs to reheat them again, but in reality with rivet, its the chef would will tell you to eat it up and cope.

apparently they are purely aiming for console markets, at least i remember hearing from one of the threads here. And well i dont even know did the tests went through with TSW ambassadors. This is Doesn't Test Games after all... so of course they would use their player base and have them pay to do beta testing.

 

Ah but DTG and Rivet are the chefs, if you return the food they will probably have spat or worse in it before returning the plate to your table.

 

McDonald's chefs?

 

Good point well made.

I often tell my wife when busy in the kitchen that I’m Head Chef.

She retorts that I’m just a lowly short order cook. Or more likely short tempered cook!

Which reminds me I need to go and craft the topping for the Sunday dessert - apple crumble.

Apple Crumble… mmm in best Homer Simpson gurgle.

And mind this is with decent ingredients too, proper butter, flour and oats. No margarine or palm oil.

Sorry for completely OT ramble.

 

Is this thread apart of Dovetail lore, now?

 

Hope you don't, also, have to put up with any core issues with your crumble

 

excatly.

 

Nice one. All ready for the oven.



Anyhow back on topic, sort of, fired up my PS5 version of the game to continue a run on BML. Constant stutters and sound glitching, plus every now and again the infamous drainpipe effect for several seconds. This is an older route on standardised hardware, not a newer route on a potato PC despite what the DTG apologists would have you think.

Time they brought in some decent programming talent to sort it out once and for all. Or admit UE isn’t really cutting it, draw a line and go back to the drawing board.

 

They are making sales. You still purchase from them. Everyone is happy!

 

Very much triaging what I buy.

Picked up Semmering in the last sale and it’s not a bad route. Also the TSG Mittenwald to support them.

However not bothered with Mildmay and it looks like Cardiff might be a pass if You Know Who are involved and the 150 sounds and physics are not that much improved.

Oh and didn’t bother with the Ludwig route either.

 

Was out of town and decided to play some of my TSW DLC on another high spec pc. Really hated the experience. Downloaded some of my TSC and it just felt like home! All my future funds will be in rounding off my TSC collection.

 

I did have TSC uninstalled but put it back on the other day, gradually adding my DLC, well the stuff I want to play, in gradually.

 

If you have an older pc TSC is better played Lean and Mean (just activate the DLC you want to play with and keep the rest switched off). No point cluttering the menus with DLC which is not relevant.

 

Are you ok vern. I think 90% of messages are snipes lately. Do you need a hug.

 

We need a whip round so that Vern can get himself a better pc

 

Rivet are making stuff that sells, if they really were that incompetent none of their DLC would sell. Like I said, the problem is that their strengths are just not being utilised properly.

They should just be focused on making train models as that seems to be where their strengths lie. But because DTG have a quota to fill and limited resources to do so, they have to rely on Rivet to fill in the gaps.

This then results in Rivet doing something they're clearly not good at. But all DTG care about is if it sells, and Rivet DLCs do.

I am not defending them, simply pointing out its not as black and white as you're making it out to be. Competency isn't the issue, it's their strengths not being used in the right way.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact DTG themselves don't even listen to feedback, how many times have people pointed out problems with their own routes that have never been fixed. Given they're in a close partnership, it's obvious Rivet would follow DTG's lead.

 

When Thomas releases, all the anger and frustration will be forgotten.

 

Great point. Myself and a few other players moved back to TSC a long time ago and did not look back (except for reading the forums sometimes). Others just seem to be going round in circles complaining every day, but can´t bring themself to leave the plug and play comfort of Train Sim World and move on to TSC or other games. If people dislike the path of TSW, they should stop torturing themselfs. It´s that simple.

 

I just had this little gem pop up on sale on Steam…

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2494340/Tour_de_France_2024/

By all accounts it is very good, from what I’ve been reading the courses are actually scale length too. Trying later on this evening.

 

Without having sampled neither of yours or Mrs verns cooking, I'll take your word for it that you are the Head chef.

The men in my family do the cooking. The ladies in my family make me appreciate a McDonald's!

I hope you both enjoyed the crumble. After having been dragged around Duxford all day, I'm just deciding which microwave meal I should prepare for dinner.

 

I don't buy it. Got done with WCL. Which stays installed as the Wagons layer in. Standard just isn't good enough compared to other things. Why is DTGS Cathcart route decent and Rivets E and G not. It really shouldn't be like this. Consistent standards should be the norm. However DTG have form for this in TSC so don't expect much to change.

 

too true, like the fanboys.

 

Haven’t watched the Cardiff stream but I read enough and came here to dump some thoughts.

This time last year we got Suffragette line which, whilst not long, felt like a complete product and the scenery was very well done. It wasn’t bug free but it was in an absolutely satisfactory state at release.

How far we’ve fallen - I do fear for the future if DTG have completely outsourced their own UK routes to Rivet.
I only bought TSW5 when it reached 60% discount, only after so many problems with WCMLS had been fixed, when they could have had my money in pre-order. The route still has problems, but I can get some enjoyment out of it. And that’s after months of fixes.
I haven’t yet bought any TSW5 add-on (no interest in WCMLoS, but I except that from the quality issues prevalent), and just don’t want to when problems are so rife now.

The TSW3 and 4 eras, while not problem free (Cajon Pass scenery was meh, there were bugs in routes, as always, and suspension almost didn’t happen), felt much more positive. I miss that time.

 

I fear quantity is taking over from quality but at M&S or Waitrose price levels, nor Aldi or Lidl! I haven’t watched the stream yet, but taken enough away that at best this will be a 50% or better off in a sale purchase. The route building looks half hearted and lacklustre, like something knocked together in an old version of Trainz Surveyor. How on earth can they do new sounds and physics for the 153 but leave the virtually identical 150 with the slightly tweaked rubbish Rivet ones?

 

Read plenty of comments of I want a 153 so will buy it regardless. The business model works no matter how much we protest. I'm off to do a dance in the hope a West Highland Line is announced (by JT)

 

West Highland with a 153…sacrilege!

Steam heat Class 27 and Mark Ones including sleeping and buffet cars.

Seriously though, it will be interesting to see if a subsequent route appears with the 153 layered in but the only way to get it will be through buying this lacklustre route.

 

I'm aggrieved the WCL takes HD space based on the CE wagons. West Highland only in BR times thanks, 27 or 37 or the transition era!

Probably fails that Lampoil assessment. We are in the influencer era now......

 

I didn't even go that far. I still have the free edition and since then I got only a few DLCs originally released for TSW3 & TSW4 that were discounted -80% off. The last time I got a TSW 60% off was TSW3 (and TSW4 was a key from Humble Bundle someone else didn't need). Nothing TSW related is currently worth its price until it's at least -80% off.

 

T minus 5 months for the announcement of TSW 6

 

So many unhappy TSW players. I am saddened to see this.