The definition of passion: Just Trains: "lets make tons of extra liveries to coaches and locos, and even model many different nameplates on the 47s included the snowploughs, of course a buffet car has to be there too. The new loco included in the longest tsw BR 90s route needs to have a full modeled engine room too..." Rivet: "Just get it done somehow, theyll buy it anyway" Of course its reflects my opinion, but since rivets "passion" here is involved, this is a simple nobuy from my side. TSW stands for freedome and exploration as one of the core features compared to tsc. In tsc the scenario is built around the player in the train. In Tsw the player is "just" the driver or passenger in a dynamic world around him. Very lazy Rivet as oldest third party dev still didnt get that and starts cutting train station modeling. I want good tsw dlcs, not pure annoyance of certain minimalism even before a dlc releases.
But yet again, DTG hyped this like the best thing since sliced bread. You know, the biggest issues like Cardiff central not being finished won’t be fixed. Did they just run out of time and call it a day? Did they just say, meh, can’t be bothered? why then, stations that have BRIDGES. THINGS THAT ARE ALREADY THERE, still require a teleport over to the other platform. Surely adding a teleport point was more work than allowing the player to WALK. This really is a poor show, yet again! But, people will be shills and buy it regardless. DTG really need to get their act together. Excuse, after excuse, after excuse; and yet, people always defend DTG. This is a really tiring cycle, when will it end? When will DTG actually take accountability and make sure basic things are done right? That’s all people ask for.
One thing that stood out to me when they showed the map is how incredibly small the route is? Like from one end to another it's barely a few curves. Layout wise it felt similar to Cathcart, which is nice, but much smaller. Since there clearly are off-the-map destinations, couldn't have been the route longer? How much is the current track length?
Tried to say earlier in the thread that people will likely be very disappointed by the length of the route…. The “network style” IMO has always been a bit of a cop out. People don’t have to agree with me, that’s fine. I was happy enough to pick this up, though; despite the screenshots and the roadmap stream. But after last night, the only reason I want it is the 153. Nothing else. That’s what peeves me so much.
You can tell Rivet had a part in it because of some of the terrible buildings put down like it's from Minecraft the same happened on fife circle why is this still happening it's unacceptable to even charge £30 for that i will say the 150 and 153 are modelled really well the 153 sounds lovely i was going to buy it straight away but seeing the preview stream it's disappointing so I will hold off for now
It looks so bad, worse than Fife Circle on release because those kinds of flat, Minecraft buildings are everywhere on this route.
Yeah. There is a fair few fife circle buildings there. They should've got help from JT for the scenery. They would've done a much better job.
Absolutely the work JT do is incredible that's how routes should look i will happily pay for that anyday this just isn't right the route should be put back until it's in a better state for release
It looks OK but other than the 153 it didn’t scream out to me that it’s a day 1 purchase, and given the glut of routes out recently and the game play packs due out soon I think I’ll be passing this up and wait for a sale and save my money for Frankfurt Sbahn
Agree with pretty much all of the above and at the risk of repeating myself, why the fudge didn’t DTG and Rivet talk to each other regarding the 150 and 153 physics and sounds? Absolutely ludicrous to have two trains on the route which use the same Cummins engine and transmission, same top speed just a slight difference in mass and one is totally wrong in game. Then you also have the 158 which while slightly different has correct implementation of sound and physics on a Sprinter type unit. Either arrogance or incompetence has prevailed here to not use a better template. As regards the route, well to some extent the Rivetness could be ignored on Fife Circle as you did get a decent run and the Forth Bridge. But this pathetic 20 miles in total, not even down to Barry Island is not worthy of a £30 price tag. At best this should have been put out between £15 and £20 to reflect the small scale and poor quality work. I agree with what others have said, compared to this, Glossop and Goblin Line start to look fantastic. And the female dog of it is, we know the increasingly out of touch EP will use the previously parroted excuse to not make any more network routes when this bombs, as it surely must. Even the acolytes need to think twice before making a “pity” purchase of this one.
I know it’s a Rivet product, but after *Fife Circle*, I believe there will be some updates to make the route at least satisfactory, or maybe that was just a one-time thing for Rivet. I’ll be getting it on day one simply for the 153. Like how they changed the yellow lighting at Cardiff, hopefully, they can improve some of the other parts eg. Coryton branch to make the route be respectable post-release
It's a shame the DTG Community Managers are all hiding from the forums these days, either they don't have any ammo to defend their products with, or the powers that be have told them not to comment because so many times things have been said that never come to fruition, I mean we are still waiting for the missing Timetable layers from WCMLs that Matt said would come back in December 2024, only to be told more recently after lots of badgering by Harry that they probably won't come now. Alex being hounded for fixes to Goblin Line, for which he even said he had personally escalated support tickets, only for him to quietly ignore the thread, and the fixes never happen. I remember the days when Matt, JD, Sam, Alex etc all got involved with the community, shot down the prats and defended their products with concrete plans. But now the only interjection is Jan moderating language/squabbles and Alex releasing his (well done) scripted content. It was super cringe to hear Matt stumbling over whether to actually say "Rivet" on the stream or not. And also ignore the hundreds of messages asking why the route doesn't go to Barry Island.
Haven't watched the stream apart of a very short bit where the "third party devs" involvement questions were asked. I just want to say that I absolutely LOVED the answer Matt gave to this, which was essentially "there are multiple parties involved nowadays, there are no islands there, this won't be a topic because we want you to see the product as it is, if you find it appealing - that's awesome, and if not - that is indeed your right to pass this offering and do something else with your time and money". This is exactly my stance - I couldn't care less who made something, if I like what I see I will get it. Or, actually I WILL get it regardless, because this is content for a video game that I like and I like my games "complete". Now, there seems to be a consensus here that the 153 is good, and the 150 is meh, which is fine with me. The reason is probably that the 150 was a cheap update to an existing loco, and 153 was an expensive bit of development done from (mostly) scratch. I am fine with this, I understand why these decisions are made business-wise and how game development works, and it makes perfect sense. Of course if the 150 was not here at all, and it was just the 153, there would be less complaining about Rivet involvement and sound issues, and the most vocal and negative part of this community would arrive at a conclusion that the route is better for it. That's just an insane pov and I will leave it at that. The 30 GBP point has been brought up again, and I don't really know why we are still talking about this at this point. Yes, it's more expensive than how much routes cost 5 years ago. Newsflash - it is more expensive to make games now that it was five years ago. Duh. If it exceeds your budget wait for a sale - this is as true as ever. DLCs were always crazy expensive for this game, I don't understand the Pikachu faces every time a price drops for a product. Though I did myself have one with Mittenwaldbahn and WCML North - that pricing is really something. Mildmay was 12 miles point-to-point with one piece of rolling stock and cost 25 pounds, this is 20 miles network with 2 pieces of rolling stock for 30. Would I want this to be cheaper? I would love all the DLCs to be half price, sure, better for me. But it is not how DTG operates as a business. I find it crazy, that for DLCs released between 30th Jan and 30th Mar for TSW I will be asked to fork out around 200 dollars, but it is what it is. No one is making me buy this. If I have fun with the content I will. I could play Fortnite instead for free, yet I prefer to stick to here somehow. The length, ah, the length. Never ever have I seen a route that was deemed "too long". Not once have I read that someone would not want any route to be extended somewhere else or have this additional branch, or something else. Nothing anyone will ever deliver in this regard will be enough for the community. This is just how it is with people. In reality a 20-mile long network style route is exactly like Cathcart. That route is broadly regarded as a very solid purchase in every "which route should I choose" thread I see, yet here something of a similar scale is being battered. I am not disappointed with the route length - multiple paths and frequent stops is going to make this feel longer than it really is. The timetable looks busy with all the additional layers, too. Definitely not something for me to pick up Day1, but I haven't picked anything from the TSW5 yet era anyway, I'm still playing through and finishing the achievements in TSW2 with the third and fourth game lined up. But I will definitely pick this up at some point when moving to newer releases. It looks like it can deliver a lot of fun gameplay, even if some sounds are wrong, or there is a tree somewhere that it shouldn't (like I would be able to tell anyway - heh). That platform teleporting though? Not cool, stop that, DTG.
I was looking forward to this but at the moment it looks like a sale purchase or wait and see if they improve it. The route just did not excite me, something I'm feeling a lot at the moment with TSW. It did look like two different developers have made the scenery. They have done something to the 150 as it seems to sound more like it should but not as good as the 153 which was the highlight of the route. I personally think the route should have been longer and it seemed to have less self contained services than I thought it would have. It certainly doesn't look as polished as the JT and TSG routes. Looks like my money is going on the TSG route and several TSC add-ons.
I may pick this up in a year or so when it's heavily discounted. The only routes I pay full price for and day one purchases nowadays are the JT routes because you know they're well worth the money. I can only hope JT stick with UK only routes because the standard of UK routes thanks to Rivet's involvement are very poor and not worth anywhere near the full asking price
I know I dont mind doing depot moves but thats a lot almost has bad has san bernardino route half of that was depot moves
As a newbie I don't know the history behind the complaints with Rivet but know what I like and what I don't like. UE4 is a fairly capable engine that can get pretty close to creating some realistic looking scenery. Why then are we seeing the bare minimum with some buildings, basic rectangular blocks with squares for windows but no refection's and no weathering? And what the hell was that Torchwood references shape supposed to be? It didn't look like a building to me. It's not good enough in 2025. And why are the ballast and water textures so poor? The Ballast is uniform brown EVERYWHERE and doesn't look particularly realistic and the water looks terrible too. I have seen better water textures in TSW so I know they can do better. JT have shown what can be done and that is the standard I want to see going forward otherwise its a sale only purchase. I wont pay £30.00 for routes that have TSW2 quality buildings and don't take FULL advantage of the features UE4 provides.
At the risk of being banned for having run ins with the usual fanboys, who cry when you bite back, just remember you reap what you sow, not that they care much. We are already long onto the path of this diminishing quality.
My fear now is, as Matt stated if this route doesn't make enough 'sales' then we should prepare ourselves on this being potentially being one of the last of network style routes. (We still have Frankfurt S-Bahn, but that may be it afterwards). It'll be a shame to see network style routes go as I'm usually a big fan on them; Offers a quick play while offering a busy service pattern at the same time. There's one of the reasons CCC is one of my favourite routes alongside many others here, but for this route to be at an atrocious quality when it comes to scenery really destroys the experience. I guess this is what managed decline is, 'it it doesn't make sales, then we won't invest' rather than looking at 'why?' they aren't making sales in the first place.
Pushing aside the gaslighting & quality aspect which I’ve addressed elsewhere, I’m not even sure how you could gauge why people bought this route. Maybe people just want the first TFW route in TSW, maybe they only like diesels or maybe they just enjoy short routes. Conversely people not buying may not like diesels, don’t want UK content or don’t enjoy stopping services. We’ve seen more often than not, the limited view cabs aren’t everyone’s favourite, so maybe they just don’t want a route they can’t see whilst driving. I just don’t see the network aspect being the only thing that’s considered by a customer, nor do I see how DTG could quantify this being the selling point or not. BR Blue got scrubbed by DTG for similar reasons, but you have different groups of customers. Personally I don’t like the 45, but I got NTP as Manchester is special to me. Again with TVL, it was one of the only North England routes we had at the time. Who’s to say sales weren’t based on region rather than era? On the flipside, I’m sure there are people that want BR content in the south, but all they really got was some bodged version of a modern GWE. How DTG can come to the conclusion that no one wants BR content from that, is beyond me. In fact JT have proven the opposite.
DTG said similar about BR Blue, JT came along and oh look....... If sales of BPO were poor I doubt they would of gone ahead with WCMLoS and if sales of that were poor I doubt they'd be doing an 86 with M2f's and a MK1 Buffet Coach.
They apparently have abandoned steam because it doesn't sell. Hardly surprising the way they left it. Or did they abandon it because they can't get it to function properly. I accept I am likely in the minority, but TSW needs this variety to keep my interest. I like driving all trains and enjoy modern trains, but I don't want to see 90% of UK routes to be of similar lineage.
yep, Steam is another one. I don't know if they are going to layer it in as a special on this route but you may as well turn the layer off. I was on BPO t'other day and in came the steam special to Blackpool, totally silent, absolutely ruined it. I now turn off all steam layers on any routes I have, which is such a shame!
Yup, variety is the key & I think it’s another factor to be considered in determining success. Let’s say this route sells well (which I suspect it might just for it being TFW), does that mean DTG should only do TFW Sprinter networks? Or does it mean they try another Network in another region with EMUs? I think it’s one of the trapdoors DTG fell into with BR Blue, it didn’t really have the scope to support it not being wanted. Look back to Southern third rail routes, DTG went on an Electrostar binge & people got fed up, now though there is more & more demand for that content to come back. TSW has always had this issue of variation, it seems DTG sell something & if it sells well they get stuck into that cycle until it burns out & then doesn’t return.
So the the timetable isn't 1:1 either... Another blow to a coffin with several nails in it already for me...
This is true. I have been mostly glass half full when it comes to TSW, however I feel burnt out now. The Mildmay line does look stunning but is this the peak we have reached, when we get excited about a short commuter route with a modern EMU. Is this the benchmark that TSW is going to aim for? Even the longer routes feel incomplete, MML and ECML in particular.
So, happy now they finally answered the Rivet question? At least now you can buy it without worrying whether they were involved or not. I'm still buying it, but not to support Rivet. I'm buying it purely for the diesel traction (in contrast to the many electric trains we already have) and the network-style of the route. Other than those two things though, not really much to be excited about. Except maybe the potential for more Welsh routes.
I don't get this whole "this is the fate of network routes" thing. Cathcart? Southern High Speed? LIRR? There are already plenty of routes in a network style and they are good.
But…. If people don’t like it, they won’t make more. But people only dislike it because they aren’t interested, not because of the shoddy quality
Agreed, these are some of best routes in the sim. I would add Blackpool to that too, in part at least.
Mildmay is an interesting case I think, it brings the Overground quite abit closer to completion & it’s one of few (if not only) routes that actually drives you through the Capital. The 378 is essentially iconic too, I think literally anyone who plays TSW & lives in London would snap that up just for familiarity. I think the whole made by one person factor is doing a lot for it too, not to diminish his work as it’s genuinely impressive for one person to achieve, I’m just not sure how much of a factor that is for me personally in purchasing the product considering it has one of my main gripes with TSW. Route amputation. It’s getting really bad, pushing aside quality issues, this is the number 1 problem I’ve got with TSW at the moment - we have too many routes which seem to fall flat just infront of the finish line. Mildmay is a stone throw away from where it should end, who is ever going to fill that gap now? ATS’ new route is the same, what route can we ever expect to cover Crewe to Wilmslow? MML, great route with great trains that gives you very little playable experience. I get it, I’m over simplifying the development by saying ‘stones throw’ but if you’ve done 90% of a route, cutting off the last 10% is going to leave people frustrated & getting thrown out of your cab within spitting distance of the IRL terminus, it wipes away any immersion I’ve had. MML, the 158 is great but I have to play ECML to use it in a reasonable way, so I have to then consider if the 158 is worth £30 - indirectly it seems DTG would then see this as me not being interested in the Midlands or EMT. I’m sure someone else can summarise better than me, but this limited scope of route geography is a really irritating niggle & even if the content comes out perfect, it’s always tarred by where it ends. Like you said, is the current reality of TSW really the peak of what we’re to expect?
Yes I agree and what the developer has achieved on his own is a feat and I would have bought it for certain six months ago as I would the Cardiff route. If DTG had released the NLL the cacophony on these forums would have been very noticeable. The NLL is and was one of my favourite TSC routes, I enjoy urban routes like this and the NLL is quite fascinating as it weaves along through north London. For me if we had that bit more variety, especially with more examples of backdated routes then I could get on board with routes like Mildmay.
The way I see it… TSG frequently bring out more high quality and lengthier routes. DTG bring out half finished ultra short routes. For me its just sheer laziness on DTG’s part.
I loved this Analysis! 'A Glorified Roblox Scene' That has got me laughing me hard. Love it. But I you are absolutely correct. And I said to myself think it was another thread, I don't want to be buying anymore Rivet products. Its Naff and as I said Welsh Scenery is amazing. But the depot is way too clean, Cardiff Central too quiet. Why no 166's which actually ran down there. Laziness at the best and you can just see the rivet marks on this route by looking at the buildings and roads. Do Dovetail not want to listen when the majority of us say 'WE DONT WANT RIVET HERE ANYMORE' 20 miles, too short. Way too short. Could of gone further, why do I feel UK routes are getting much more neglected recently from Dovetail and basically handing them to Rivet but have it under the DTG name, do Dovetail think we are thick in the head or something? I could only watch the stream in bits last night but have had a proper chance to look at screenshots and it just the bare minimum I am afraid. So not only have Scottish routes been screwed over by Rivet (Exclude CCL) now the first Welsh route has. Disappointing.
I watched the stream and I’m really conflicted. The 153 looked and sounded very good to me. Yet the 150 which they’ve known for a long time has issues, is still quite bad - The issue isn’t with the recordings, it’s how they are applied. I don’t know what I expected with the scenery, but I expected better than what was shown. The surrounding roads for example look absolutely terrible and it just didn’t impress. I personally don’t have a problem with Rivet working as a 3rd Party. It’s a DTG route and they have to answer for the poor quality - If it’s not good enough then it should be fixed. Rivet can definitely do good modelling, even Arosa has excellent Station buildings. I really want to Drive the 153, but I’m not paying money for this until it is brought up to standard. Not even in a sale. It’s not even close to JT or TSG and it’s being offered at close to those prices. This is the 2nd DTG route release in a row that I haven’t purchased. Until recently I bought everything UK and DE. Preview stream saved me money, which is good but I guess that wasn’t DTGs intention - not a good advert for the game.
The fact that Dovetail have brough out a really short route, yet couldn't get lots of AI in. like why not do 170 in a unbranded XC livery for those services, Class 166 GWR services. a 158 TfW branded Livery (exterior) Do what Johannes did which is incredible. They can't even station the Lineside Vegetation correct, just generic, the buildings well we know who that is. It is pathetic and really do hate being like this but as I said UK content seems to be getting worst on Dovetail's side. We may as well rely on JT and Johannes as well as Skyhook games. Getting sick of these 50%+ Cut routes. Been seeing difference in quality a lot. It is disappointing
On the timetable, I really don’t understand. They’ve used things like the 150 to stand in for the 67’s on their IC runs, so I don’t get why the 166 isn’t making up more GWE traffic & why there’s seemingly very limited traffic through Cardiff. I feel the stream covered enough times for us to realistically say it’s not a time of day factor. Again as I said, if you look at the depot they’ve made smart work of the DB 66’s as they do the job well enough to stand in for the pre-blacked out 67’s. The TT is 500+ services which looks great but it’s clear that much of this doesn’t really amount to anything. I don’t want to come across as contradictory, as we always tell DTG to give us the depot moves, but I think there is some smoke screening going on with how they’re represented. Generally the depot is a real selling point for this route, it’s full, there’s movements & the interior looks loads better than we’re used to. It just doesn’t excuse what’s going on with the rest of the route. The 20 miles thing, again I generally don’t dislike, more often than not those routes are better polished than others. The problem here is there isn’t much polish, I’d go as far to say it isn’t even finished. Jamie was really hot on saying “but you get multiple end points” yeah fair enough, though these aren’t stand out termini, they’re just standard platforms & a couple of them have buffers. One of the fears of this network theory is that TSW is falling into a pattern of cut routes, so a network just compounds that issue by however many routes you want to add into one DLC. All this route really achieves is the beginning of a network, they need the actual lines completing to really be a success. Most of what’s been built is one section from one route & then the beginning of another.
I do agree with you CK, I was expecting this route to be fully polished and look stunning, realistic. Yet they have chose to do lots of shortcuts. It is annoying as was very hyped up for this route.
