You know what your trying to do, you only ever join in to cause trouble. Keep this thread on topic please.
OK, this is indeed feedback that can be addressed. But it is not the standard of the messages people post here. A few points regarding some of your observations: Not sure if this is an asset issue or an engine issue. Destination boards in TSW2 are terrible and I can't ever make out what is written on them, but if you move the camera close enough you see that the higher quality textures are there, it's just they are not streamed from more than 5 metres. Doesn't mean that the asset creator did a bad job. This is probably doable, unless there is some performance consideration w don't know about. They specifically addressed this area. If it's gonna be good enough I can't say, maybe Vern's suggestion would be the way to go. Though I feel that then we would have story of "reusing the sounds, while charging full price, blah blah blah". The fact that something was done on another route does not automatically imply that this is standard. Multiple factors can affect this. The most basic being time/effort needed. Scope-affecting decisions are not really constructive. "Just model that" is not a viable advice if someone is over budget, for example. While what you say is true, there is no standard to adhere to, unfortunately. Some things are better quality and live up to their potential, some are not faring that well on this front. I get your sentiment, I really do. And worded like that I think it's a very fair point of view to have. Singling out some developer on their company affiliation, however, is not. And this has been very prevalent thing in this thread before. No, I am not. I am just a consumer that likes playing with virtual trains, though I do work in game QA and therefore understand some of the decisions and perceived issues with these DLCs. Since I know how difficult is to do these things I find attacks on developers as unfair. The tone of some of the messages on these forums implies they are a bunch of lazy, ill-willed, predatory scammers that want to rip everyone off of their money, and I think it's unfair to paint such an image of someone clearly passionate about their craft. If DTG was in it solely for the money they would be churning out mobile F2P games, Fortnite assets, or tap into other predatory monetization schemes so widely popular in today's AAA game landscape. Yet here they are, working on the imperfect, sure, but still best train sim game out there (in terms of production values and feature set, at least for me), while being met with plenty of criticism, and very little praise. I am sure Matt and the rest of the team would have a much nicer cars/houses/etc if they were doing FIFA Ultimate Team cards, Call of Duty skins or other some such stuff, yet here they are, bringing trains to people passionate about trains, and rarely being met with a good word. And I disagree with it, I am appreciative of the fact that we have TSW now and 70 different routes to choose from and play around, because I still remember MSTS days and see how far we have come.
Right, do you remember the amount of praise that JT got with there 2 routes and new trains and coaches? They did everything to the best of the quality. They ensured there was minimum bugs int he release, optimisation, they listened to what the community wanted and delivered excellently. They don't make tones of excuses. Have you played Preston to Carlisle, the scenery, gradients, landmarks everything is spot on and I know that as I travel on the route frequently and I know it is set in 1986 but it really hasn't changed that much. As a Consumer, we are right to criticize the developers. It is laziness when they are literally adding teleporting portals just to go to another platform because they don't want to do the tunnel. That is pure laziness and we are right to call it out. Looks like the route has just been produced in the last 2 weeks and rushed quickly like they forgot about the route.
It looks alright in some places. blizbeast pl I still maintain Cardiff should’ve been finished. I don’t agree that it’s fine that it wasn’t. The concourse isn’t an incredibly complex area. To have done so much and then just say “that’ll do” not for me. DTG couldn’t get the lighting correct to begin with - something that is iconic with Cardiff Central. Small detail? Maybe. But without it, Cardiff is unrecognisable at night. Fair enough that they fixed this. I don’t believe that it wasn’t modelled in favour of two extra stations, and even if it was; I still feel that’s a bit of a cop out. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
As I said, developers are qualified in this area for a reason. To develop things we can't develop, they aren't using there qualification to there advantage if they can't be bothered to develop.
Also. Talk about “standards” why as consumers should we accept lower standards for one route and not another? Yes, quality will inevitably fluctuate, but you should at least be finishing the products you intend to sell. if I sold you a car with one wiper blade instead of two, because the second was much too work to add, would you still have the same answer? No, probably not. Would your car be useless? No. But you wouldn’t have everything you’d expect to have in a car. (This is just an example)
Again definitely not trying to cause trouble, I just like to shine a light on the very warped mentality of these virtual halls, people that have a decent level headed opinion and don't agree with the mob mentality are routinely shouted down as being fanboys, all because some people can't handle anything that shows any sort of resistance to their own views or opinions.....
My problem is you and a few others want to Justify poor quality products. These poor quality products Dovetail been releasing have been shocking tbh. I am just being realistic mate, they are constantly cutting corners and it isn't good enough. As I said trillions of times, I hate writing these posts but I have to, the quality they are delivering is well below customer expectations! For a small route, there shouldn't be any of that. If it was a much more longer route It bother me but wouldn't bother me as long as it looks really good. and the passion is there.
I do agree that these arguments need to stop though. It’s not productive to the discussion at hand and will only serve to diminish the credibility of everyone here. it’s fair to say we all have our opinions.
Just to state for the record I ain't trying to justify absolutely nothing, If I want a product I will buy it I don't care about anyone else's opinion, because it won't effect my purchase. And vice versa my purchase of a product you think is sub par doesn't affect you in any shape or form, but if you think it does affect you, that's great but I really don't care. And I mean that in the most respectable way possible.....
I don’t think anyone is saying you shouldn’t buy it. If it’s acceptable for you, that’s your choice and it’s your money to spend how you wish. All I see is people are passionate about making sure this dlc is the best it can be. Whether you agree with that, again, is your choice. personally, I’m based at Cardiff Central as a mainline conductor. I see the station every single day I’m in work. Thats my justification for wanting it to be as good as it can be. Not just because I’ll be spending money on it.
If DTG has handed most modern UK routes to the clown show that is Rivet then that’s it as far as I’m concerned. What has Rivet got on DTG to keep getting away with these sub par routes? The WCMLS debacle alone was enough to lose trust yet they keep handing them work. Why? I refuse to buy anything that this shoddy company have been involved in unless on rock bottom sale, even then I’d feel ashamed for handing any money over. I don’t care how you dress it up it’s shoddy, bare minimum level work, just compare it the masterpieces from JT and TSG as to see what is possible. Whoever runs Rivet must have skin as thick as a rhino and a belief that enough fan boy mugs exist out there to make it worth their while. Thank goodness for TSC.
Is right. I mean say you were a businessman who hired an accountant who did a rubbish job and you ended up with a fine from the taxman resulting in losing you money, you wouldn't go with that accountant again, would you? Seems DTG probably would lol
Someone mentioned contracts. DTG likely does have a contract with Rivet. Unless rivet broke that contract, it’s likely far more expensive to terminate it than let it run its course. like it or not - rivet is here to stay for the foreseeable. DTG likely have some control over the quality that must be produced, it would be amateurish if they didn’t. rivets modelling as far as I can tell is fine. But their attention to detail in scenery is naff. DTG probably should utilise rivet to their strengths, but there we go.
I sincerely respect you replying diplomatically and articulately making your own points and not adding fuel to the fire compared to a certain other member I don't engage with (it goes without saying who I'm referring to, as it's like talking to a antagonising brick wall!) and having a real level headed debate (sincerely). I still disagree and stand by my own points though. It's just one of those things, I'm finding myself going round in circles repeating so I stand by my point on this one and respect your own take on it, I just politely disagree. You've probably seen I've posted dozens of comments so far and I haven't changed my opinion since, but it's getting to the point of me repeating myself. So I'm going to just opt out for now, as I've made my stance quite clear. I think moving forward I can't make any further assesment until A) I've played it myself (which is very unlikely). B) I've watch some independent third parties stream the route. I've got a feeling this is going to be just like WCMLS unfortunately, hyped up and very deflated compared to what it could actually have been, given the right time and concentration. And just absolutely full of bugs or missing stupid detail. But from what I have seen in that stream it is full of visual issues and sloppyness... The only saviour oddly is the 153! But thank you (sincerely) for having a level headed and diplomatic response, sometimes such manners are lost and can be devisive to the extreme.
I love when the trolls are so full of concern. Only looking out for those poor, misunderstood developers working passionately for peanuts on a plucky little train game rather than making that bag at EA or Rockstar- for us, the little people- so noble, heroic even! Reminds me of the old days of the internet lol. And he's still playing TSW2, which adds just a wonderful little character detail. *chef's kiss*
Yep, I am. Going to 100% all achievements before importing my profile to TSW3 and then 4. Something wrong with that?
Not to try and turn into Rumple of the Bailey... But come, let's not turn this into a personal mud slinging contest or take sly jabs at others. Any arguments made on either side are slightly undermined when it turns personal. Nothing wrong with a heated debate within reason, but it just turns nasty when it turns personal. Let's refocus any frustrations to the right places aye?
Back on topic please folks. This releases Tuesday. I will be picking it up day 1 for the class 153 and will be posting my initial thoughts and screenshots here.
In terms of the models and assets I've just had a run down WSR and all of the buildings have nice detailing on them. They aren't just square boxes with dodgy windows like we saw on the route. Again I'm comparing this to other routes at multiple price points from multiple developers. For the lineside detailing again we've seen this on wider scope routes done incredibly well. Blackpool branches beautiful, WCMLOS beautiful, Suffragette beautiful, TSG routes beautiful. Those routes have very full on timetables as well especially the JT routes but we still get good detail on those. I'll be honest I don't hate the 150, it's better than the rivet original. And I could live with the sounds. But again if people who know them better say the 153 sounds are a better fit then that's okay as well. It's still constructive feedback But then if you're going to model a route why not put the time and effort into doing it properly. Having to teleport to a platform is a little ridiculous? They've modelled stations really well on other routes again in the past so it's unfortunate that the standard has dropped for this one. I have also not singled out a developer on this route I have just stated I don't think the scenery is up to scratch. Whether it was Rivet or DTG we've seen this thing pop up on earlier routes which again got this kind of feedback. when MML released Skyhook to their absolute credit took it on board and put the work in now MML is a fantastic looking route and they're working on some great content with help from the community. In the past certain developers have buried their head in the sand not followed up their releases well enough. I just think if they'd have put more effort into this route they'd made more money from it and it would've had such a good reception! On the other hand if this doesn't sell well because of quality will this get thrown in the same box as steam, BR blue, us freight etc?
I'd be interested to know if the 153 has brake rub sounds - couldn't hear any on stream as they were chatting throughout
Like I've already said, I'll still get it. A diesel route in a network style with 2 trains (albeit one reused) gets my vote over the electric bus stop services we've been getting lately. The usual stuff that comes with a Rivet route, yes, but given their involvement I'm not expecting the quality to be anywhere near what it should be. Trains look alright and, although no end to end runs, various end points, so there's always some variety rather than going A to B. There's enough to keep me entertained which is all that matters at the end of the day. Will I play it much? Probably not, but it's one of those things that I'll keep for when I get bored of my usual routes. £30 a high price, but realistically it wasn't going to be any cheaper, its foolish to think otherwise. I only play WCL for the 150, a train which I know well. Same reason probably applies here, along with the 153 which is similar to the 155s I also know. The fact I'm able to drive a train I work with in real life (and am actually riding on right now) is enough to me to warrant a purchase.
The Class 153 and the Coryton branch were the standouts for me. 153 sounds a lot better but notch 3 seemed to all but cut out at around 5 mph. I managed to watch the stream again and the Class 150 does sound improved, not great by any means still, but considering I’m almost certain they’ve used to 153 brake release sound on the 150, they could have gone a lot further and implemented more! It’s a nice little network a new operator and area for TSW. It’ll be day one for me. It’s a shame it’s not a scenic one, I think it was miss not doing a proper Valley Lines section like Merthyr or Rhymmey.
Sounds like after all the things you said it would be an idea to wait for it to go on sale and not reward the less than stellar devs by paying full price? Maybe if full price sales drop a bit then it might send a message that we all want better. Just saying.
Yeah it’s strange. The way some people act here, you’d think they were getting paid off by DTG. Like I said before, people will always buy their product no matter how POORLY it’s done.
I know the feeling and I’m having the same thoughts about the Dutch route. Ultimately it boils down to price vs quality vs how much am I going to end up driving it? At the moment for Cardiff, even though I want to thrash the 153, for £30 it doesn’t satisfy those criteria.
It's not like there are any competitors out there, so I don't see how that would be surprising. I'm pretty sure that if both DTG and JT would do their CCN variants the latter would be widely considered better and more attentive to detail, therefore would sell better instead of the DTG one, alas.
Openrails is decent for U.S stuff. They would smash the competition if they were using Unreal engine.
I'll be avoiding it and keeping to my morals... I'm not going to be a cash cow and encourage mediocre work for premium work prices. The only chance there is of me purchasing it at the moment is if the 153 layers onto a future route that makes it worth it.
I still wait for it to drop down in price. Or they miraculously improve it to very high standards which has a 99% chance of not happening and a 1% chance of happening.
Same here. I mean 95% chance as regards the Dutch route I will end up folding and getting on Day One as it’s something nice and different. But Cardiff can wait. DTG also need to heed while they are churning this medium quality DLC out and edging the price up, they are doing this against the background there is so much content in the game already people will start being more discerning about what they buy. As I said, Is the price right? How much play will I get from this? Is it a quality item?
My problem with cardiff is mainly the very short route. And of course start shortcutting the train station modeling is something cant be defended. So im not gonna buy it until 80% sale, which is ok when its just 8 bucks.
I won't be buying the route and am not in a particularly pro-TSW mood at the moment. I haven't played it for nearly a month, even the JT routes and have been playing with TSC. However, people can spend their money how they like, it is the business of no one on here and I don't feel anyone should be questioning other peoples choices, or trying to shame them into a moral crusade by belittling them. If someone gets enjoyment out of it then surely that is enough for them.
Genuine question: why are DTG/Rivet routes not using the improved vegetation assets made by TSG and Just Trains? That alone would improve the DTG/Rivet routes considerably. I also fail to understand some of the creative decisions. Why not include the 37 timetabled services of a few years ago? People travelled the length and breadth of Britain to ride these. And why not add the dock lines for some shunting interest? Simple improvements would have made a much better product. I've not bought any DTG/Rivet content for a while now as they seem to have no passion or pride in what they release.
If they had done this with a full Rhymney Line, they might have secured a Day One from me, Rivetness notwithstanding. The whole project just seems a bit of underachievement and lack of vision, what players really want as opposed to what the person running the project seems to want.
I would like to see a full CVL dlc at one point. Barry Island I remain adamant would’ve been a good fit for the route. If it had gone there, I probably would’ve picked this up day one. That being said, if they update it, there’s always options for them to extend? *fingers crossed*
I did! Travelled from North Yorkshire to see the 37 and the last Pacers. With a minimum of effort they could have included a reskinned 142 and 37 and added a second timetable. I am hoping one might follow with a Class 143 later, but they could sure boost day one sales by releasing that as a day 1 expansion.
There is actually a Locomaster Profiles DVD of the ride up from Cardiff to Rhymney. Wired For Sound so you get the full on thrash recorded from the rear cab. These trains were tightly timed and the driver doesn’t hold back! You just have to blank out David Maxey’s usual whimsical commentary in your mind… https://www.locomaster.co.uk/doubleo.htm You can probably grab it from Videoscene or Amazon, too.
