Dovetail have come under a lot of justified criticism recently for their approach to fixing bugs. Blurry textures, crashing and glaring issues have all gone on longer than they should have, but credit where it’s due- they’ve made some top notch routes since tsw4. Zwolle Groningen looks exceptional, Frankfurt Fulda, despite its texture issues looks great, LIRR commuter is the best American route in the game, and there’s many other dtg routes worthy of praise. If only they could step it up on fixing route bugs, tsw could enter its best era yet.
Now hold on before we start praising DTG lets see if we can get at least 2 routes of equal quality released. I will give them praise if they ever get 3 in row. But right now it seems every 1 out of 3 are good, 1 disaster, and 1 meh.
Don’t worry, I’m not one of the people who buy every dlc on release day. They’re the real problem with tsw
Well it looks as if the Dutch route marks a return to quality, we will see later. However that doesn’t excuse or justify them putting out the Cardiff network with its tiny, tiny route mileage and many issues for only £3 less than the Dutch. More than ever, that strengthens the argument that the selling price for Cardiff should immediately be dropped to £18 or £20 and all those who bought at full price, refunded the difference!
While the Dutch route does look fantastic, it does raise the perfectly reasonable question. Why isn’t every release to this standard? Also, why is it that DTG UK content that gets the short end of the stick quality-wise? WCML South was a disaster of a release, meanwhile San Bernie and Frankie Fulda were decent efforts. If not for Liam, the WCML would still be in the same state as it launched right now. I’m not going to dive into the specifics of who made what regarding Rivet. The routes are released under DTG’s name at the end of the day unless noted otherwise. Take something like ballast for example, why does German content have ballast tech that blends colours perfectly fine while UK routes either use a bland grey or TSW2 style mud brown across an entire route? Goblin is the only UK route that utilises a mixed blend of colours. Suffice to say, UK routes need a lot more care and attention than what’s being given currently so that they match the output of current European releases. DTG are capable of it, they’ve shown us quite a few times now. I know it was remastered, but look how gorgeous West Somerset now! That should be the DTG standard right there
“Why isn’t every release to this standard?” That’s the golden question and one we should be asking and asking to ensure the devs listen to the community. The UK surely makes up most of the market for TSW, so as previously said, why is Cardiff so poorly made in parts and the route so short? Why was WCMLS released in such a state, and why do we keep on having to have this conversation? 3rd/2nd party devs being involved is fine if the quality control element is there, and let’s be honest there is one 2nd party dev who seems to come under the spotlight much more than others for shoddy work, yet they STILL continue to create for this game. I’d like to think that one day DTG will go “it’s nice when we make a route properly and the community love it, and also people do buy it and won’t refund it! ” “Consistency is key” should be plastered on the walls across all DTG offices!
This right here. You know couple of years ago, I heavily praised Dovetail on the quality of there work, I go on the facebook page Matt on the TSW Group saying thank you for producing amazing routes which we can drive in the comfort of our own home. Now I seem to find myself criticizing them more than I want and it really never used to be the case but the standards have heavily dropped and now for UK content we heavily rely on Just Trains which shouldn't be the case. Always blasting it out the park. Dovetail can surely do the same, but with the technology we have today there should be no excuse for all these poor quality routes. WCML South one of the most requested routes and for it to get released in such a state was disgusting, that route would of been amazing if it had the full 390 AI timetable included but atm lots and lots of missing AI and shame about the distance. I wonder what will be next for Dovetail and I am very curious what there next UK core route will be for TSW 6. I hope I can start doing big appreciation posts for Dovetail again sometime soon but it seems unlikely. In a way I regret getting the Cardiff Route because it was good at first but the more I played it the more and more bugs I was discovering. Unacceptable.
Yes, that's right. It's people exercising their free with their own money who are the real problem, no doubt about it. Those people should NOT be allowed money, they clearly can't be trusted... I've always tried to be reasonable when posting on these forums, and demonstrate empathy to both sides of the argument. But this insidious suggestion that people who might actually want to buy and play a route on release day are somehow the reason for everything seen as "bad" with TSW is such a dangerous line of thinking that I can't let it slide. You have no more or less right to do with your money as you please as anybody else here. Those who choose to purchase and (heaven forfend maybe even enjoy) content that you decide is unworthy are no more the problem than others who seem to live their lives with the sole intention of being outraged at whatever doesn't seem to live up to their own subjective expectations. Get over yourself.
Not sure why you’ve taken a positive, complimentary thread to heart and made a massive problem out of it. You can’t deny that the amount of people who buy every dlc without question certainly contribute to this recent perception that the quality of a route doesn’t matter, they’ll still make lots of money. The idea that I’m trying to restrict what people do with their money is ridiculous too. I wrote 21 words and you’ve blown it way out of proportion for no good reason. If there is a good reason for writing 2 long paragraphs berating me for something I didn’t say, then you are welcome to tell me why. Otherwise, you’ve made a big deal out of a problem that doesn’t exist.
I can deny this unproven speculation just as much as you can posit it. It doesn't make either or us correct, because neither of us has access to the Focus/DTG decision-making process. But your statement that "They're the real problem with TSW" - you know what, sometimes I buy DLC on release day. I bought Cardiff City Network on release day, and I'm really enjoying it. What gives you the right to tell me that I'm "the problem"? You are free to be the arbiter of quality for yourself, and to express what that level of quality should be. You don't have any right - and nor does anybody else on this forum who have been pushing into this line of thought - to be the arbiter of quality for anybody else. I'm glad you liked the new route preview, but when you say things like that with such a degree of entitlement you should expect to be called out for it.
I fear you’ve read into this too much. At no point did I say it was wrong to get a dlc on release day, in fact I will be getting zwolle Groningen today. But the people who fund dtg by buying every dlc, playing it a few times then leaving it to rot in their library don't help the quality of dlc
Why are you entitled to make that judgement, though? If I did just that, why am I the "problem"? If I came on here and stated something ridiculous like this: "The real problem with TSW is those people who complain about quality and don't buy every DLC on day one." Then I should expect all the flak I'd get from anybody who feels I'm talking about them, and I'd deserve it. If you believe your statement above, that's fine - you're entitled to. But if you're going to say it in an open forum where undoubtedly the target of your comments also reside, then don't be surprised if you get pushback.
I am allowed to make that judgement, as you are with your opposing judgement. But I am also allowed to stand by my viewpoint. And at no point did I directly call you out for buying a product because that would be entirely hypocritical of me. The problem is that this ‘pushback’ makes it look like I’ve completely offended a huge group of people, when in reality it was a 20-word judgement, which I don’t think is worthy of such a big and unnecessary debate
If anything it frustrates me that they can produce such good content like this Dutch route, Liam did an incredible job with WSR and I imagine that GWE's remaster will be up there as well. But then there are certain routes and bits of content that are just nowhere near. Like the aforementioned WCMLS and Cardiff both of which were so heavily anticipated. I took another run down BPO yesterday now I'd finally got the mastery out the way and it was just brilliant. Just returning to it was just like sitting down into your comfy arm chair at the end of the day. I just started exploring the scenery as well and it's just lovingly done. That's how you do a network route, beautiful little branches, a busy main station, a ton of service variety and a fun little main line run.
I've bought every piece of content on day 1 for the entire franchise, I just love being the number 1 problem for the entire community, I'll leave it up to everyone else to decide if this is sarcasm or not.......
Until the missing Timetable Layers are put into the WCML south route for PC and appropriate console players my mindset on DTG is that they need to change the Management Team who insist on quantity over quality which results in sloppy unfinished content. I assume that Gemma Brown and Rob O' Farrell could make this change since Jon Rissik recently left Dovetail, but that currently remains to be seen as Cardiff City Network was released short of Barry Island.
And just to follow up on this. Yes it is a real problem. I’ve dealt with c suite for years around software products and if they can get away with it they will do. And people who pick up content day one regardless of quality will play into that justification. Seen it happen time and time again even when providing customer research evidence straight into their lap. As it happens the new Dutch route seems well made this time around which is great and is what they should be striving for every time.
Very true its always UK content that gets screwed over; ECML starting and stopping at strange places, routes for both the HST and Class 390 that are simply nowhere near long enough, in the case of WCMLS it was criminal as in most runs there wasn’t even a stop! Talking of that route the shabbiest core route release in the game ever, whilst the German and US routes were sound. A never coming GWE remaster, the vanishing 104 for Peak Forest, the dropping of steam, a less than stellar Fife Circle release etc. it’s just endless discrimination against UK players. Come on DTG you are a British company, how about looking after UK players as well as everybody else?
That’s all well and good but Phil does make a perfectly valid point… What someone in this forum spends their own personal money on is nobody else’s business. There’s probably a player out there that thinks West Cornwall Local is a masterpiece and worth every penny... I’d shudder at the thought but more power to them! People can moan until they’re blue in the face about day one buyers, but as much as they’re allowed to complain, those people are free to continue buying on day one. I’d rather live and let live than lose sleep over who’s buying what.
That’s fair but it does carry consequences unfortunately. I was made redundant a month ago after 7 years because the company was in dire financial straits and facing liquidation. When I started there we were rivalling Microsoft. But two things happened that killed the company. 1. corner cutting on products 2. Customers stopping renewing their licenses because of 1. At some point it hits. May not be now or a year from now but if the output is inconsistent it will eat into the profits and then you won’t have a train game anymore.
This is exactly why tsw gets so much criticism. As soon as someone finds something to praise, everyone else points out the issues. Despite the problems you are always allowed to praise things without saying everything wrong with it
Oh come on, I could name you endless things like that for German routes too. Riesa is almost as bad as an end point as Milton Keynes is (not even local services do end in Riesa!), the new Frankfurt route which will be missing the ICE station at the airport, low quality route releases like Maintalbahn. Not to speak about the borked signalling on almost all German routes (leaving a station with an ICE on a shunting signal, yeah, never) or low-entry Dostos all over the place, even in parts of Germany which never saw them. Think about having the Class 350 on Cathcart Circle instead of the Class 380 because well yeah, it's close enough, it's a Desiro after all, isn't it? You just recognize all the problems with UK routes because you know them, as I do for Germany.
Just to throw some appreciation in this here appreciation thread: I picked up TSW2 a few years ago when looking for something that would let me actually drive the huge freight trains I'd been watching all my life. TSW did that, plus gave me a range of additional experiences with international trains. I've gotten more from this game over a longer period of time than I expected, and I appreciate that very much.
Well, I read the title of this thread and I thought I was about to cringe under a mountain of gushing praise and misplaced adulation. Wha' happened? All I see is the usual squabbling. Oh yes, Cardiff happened!! Well it's going to take several Zwolle- Groningens* to see if DTG can get their mojo back. * Haven't seen any feedback yet, but it looks pretty good prima facie. When you try harder, things turn out better, right?
Yes, I remember that terrific high I experienced driving my first run on Sand Patch Grade. I'd driven those big diesels in TSC, but this was a measurable step up. I was over the Moon. And then the UK diesels in TVL and NTP. I lapped it all up. But that was many Moons ago. The dream has faded into a bunch of little toy trains that any 4 year old can drive in his sleep.
I think a missing element here is that DTG doesn’t really have any competition. All other train simulators out there cover a specific niche, they don’t encompass a variety of regions or time periods like TS Classic or TSW. Whether DTG go under in the future or not, that’s something for the future. I do agree on the point that there needs to be better quality standards in place, this goes for third parties too. Take JT & Rivet, two opposite extremes when it comes to quality. One puts out some fantastic, carefully crafted content and the community praises it on its merit, the other is Rivet Games… I find enjoyment in TSW overall but there’s certainly room for a lot of improvements, right down to more minor details like accurate track ballast colours.
I must admit I sometimes think the reason I enjoy this game so much is because I like trains, but I don't know them. I'm very grateful for all the people on this forum who highlight problems, because it leads to DTG making a better game, but credit where it's due, this is a very good game. It's just a shame it isn't consistently as good as it can be, if every route was as good as the Dutch one I bought today I would be buying everything day one.
That's one of my main motivations, especially if I know the train in question. They're why I like the 170 and the 150 so much, I work with and ride on them, so obviously like seeing and being able to drive virtual recreations of them, even if they're not perfect.
I think the fact you have to include TSW4 to say they have released some good routes says a lot. Personally DTG have not done anything recently which deserves praise from me, but to stay positive I will send my praise to Liam & Co who have been doing the excellent remasters, such as WSR and GWE. Can't wait for that and I know it will be top notch.
DTG don’t deserve any of the loyal players in this forum, we are the problem. We buy too many German routes at 75% off.
You come on! I even forgot to add the ghastly WCL widely lauded as being one of the worst routes from anywhere in the game and the bland Spirit of Steam. Oh and where is the 104 for PF? If you want to put two recent core UK and German routes side by side then try WCMLS and Frankfurt Fulda, the former looks nothing like the super busy line I’m on every week, even after the patch, whilst Frankfurt is super busy and all hustle and bustle. The difference was stark. Thank God for modders.
I don't want to discuss here which detail in which route is worse than another, I just found it ridiculous that you talk about "discrimination against UK players" when you can find examples like you mentioned in all the three main countries. If you want to talk about "discrimination", just look at the DLC numbers for all countries and think about it once again. UK has the same amount of route DLC as the whole of continental Europe added together. And no, I don't feel discriminated just because we have less DLC. Frankfurt - Fulda may be the better route of the two, but in TSW 4 we didn't even have a German core route, so what? I'm happy about all routes, even the UK ones.
Because dovetail haven’t actually done that many routes for tsw5 alone. It’d be hard to judge them on such a small number. Besides, progress is made gradually and over a long period of time
The problem is there hasn't been progression, from TSW4 I have only seen regression in the routes from DTG.
A free pass into Dovetail towers, the issue is there won't be any tea as DTG can't work out how the kettles work so they decided to chuck them out instead of fixing the problem.
