I generally do like the idea of featuring the entire C2C network. Fairly small, simple and shouldn't be hard to model at all. Lot's of services to Southend, Grays, Rainham etc, especially during the ruch hour where services almost double. It's about time DTG should create an Eastern route with this being a starter. Barking station is getting hungry for more action whilst driving the current Goblin Line.
The problem with this is, as I've said before, is you've got the modern Goblin and SEHS to layer on, which wouldn't happen with an historic version of the route. The only realistic (and economic) setting for this route is modern day. But a Class 312 'Legend of the LTS' DLC would be ace.
I'd be up for a deluxe version with a legends pack or a later release that includes Class 312s, a smattering of those new-fangled 357s and Railfreight 37s and 47s pulling the tanks and containers from Tilbury and an NSE Class 104 on AI Goblin services. Rivet could even knock-up a D stock train for District Line services between Upminster and Bow Road. With the modern version being the main release, everyone's happy! Does pose the question of whether the modern version should have playable or AI Underground trains. S Stock, 357s, 710s, 720s all in one release. Unlikely but no-one can take our dreams away from us.
That's my dream, as I've said before. 357s and 720s would be in the release, 710s layering in from Goblin, S7 Stock would probably only come if there's a (say) District Line release at some point. In fact a District Line DLC would become more possible if this route is released, given how much scenery is shared.
But we would only get one train in the 357 with this route as that’s standard practice, there are 11 district line stations that run parallel to the LTS so would people be okay with the S7 not being included or would it be an absolute mandatory or would it be good to include as an extra DLC for those who wanted it??
I dont think they would do railtours as the last time they were used was the farewell tour and are probably been scrapped. Dovetail games would most likely do a 90s East Coastway or SEH with network southeast class 205 "thumper" or class 313 in NSE livery
There was an HST railtour to Southend back in the NSE era days and I'm pretty sure it used the LTS line as the class weren't allowed on the GEML. There have been a number of steam traction tours on the LTS over the years. But mostly it's commuter trains and freight, which seems perfect frankly. Could have taken less time to put together than WCML South too but maybe we should bide our time and 2025 will be the year DTG finally make a route for Essex. I'm sure Matt loves the line if, like me, he grew up in East London (or "AC land" as I like to call it).
To quote myself from just now in your thread on this route in General Discussion, we could have the 720 as well as we have a similar train in game already, the 710. Yes it's a different carriage length and the interior would need to be remodelled, but there's a base to work from. I could live without the S7 if this came out before a Tube route with that stock. Ideally though we'd have a Metropolitan line route first.
This route has a lot of potential especially with the rolling stock already in the game. Travelled to Southend many times in my life, last time was in June this year. Very nice scenic route and enjoyable journey. Thumbs up from me.
Less of a miss in GWE as the Underground only runs parallel for a mile or so out of Paddington and appears briefly again at Ealing Broadway. The LTS runs parellel to the District Line from west of Bromley-by-bow to Upminster for 13 miles.
people keep thinking because it’s got a sister unit so to speak it’s really easy to make trains similar to the original in this case 710 > 720, unfortunately a new train means a total new setup the model is the easy bit and that’s if it was started from new the issue is the scripting and that’s easily 3/4 months work so really frustrates me when people think trains can be easily done they are without doubt the hardest part of TSW production hence why you’ve seen virtually nobody from the freeware world even mutter a word about stock but you have routes
Thanks, as someone who has never had any talent with 3D modelling or game scripting it's good to hear why it's so difficult to make new rolling stock. As the Aventra is a modular unit, I was rather hoping that modelling could also be modular which would mean adding a window bay or one of the different front ends would be a simple job. But clearly not. I've heard that model-making could be assisted with AI in the not-too-distant future but will AI ever help with the onerous task of scripting?
You're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say it would be easy. I just said there's a base to start from, as they're both Aventras. Of course a certain amount of the work would have to be done from scratch, if too much to be part of a route release then it could always be a loco DLC at some point, or layer in with a reskin if there were already a, say, Greater Anglia route DLC.
it came across you meant easy, and for me, too many people make that mistake. I do agree on your point though of being a DLC and I do think when we get a train it’s disappointing we only ever get one livery as you say would like to see a 720 pack that also contains GA but then we need a route for it it’s very chicken and the egg situation with a lot of routes and stock at the minute but with more 3rd parties coming on board you’re only going to see that library hugely advance
Current timetable as follows: Off-peak: 4tph for the Fenchurch Street to Shoeburyness Service 2tph for both the Fenchurch Street to Southend Central Service via Upminster and Grays as well for the Fenchurch Street to Grays service via Rainham. In the peaks, additional services operate from Leigh on Sea, Laindon and Thorpe Bay on the main trunk route via Laindon combined to make 12tph. In addition, The Grays to Fenchurch Street services are extended to Pitsea with doubling in frequency to 4tph with the Fenchurch Street to Southend Central Service curtailed at Grays, also operates 4tph in the peaks. From the frequency, the services gives a combined 20tph in the AM peak between Barking and Fenchurch Street giving a service about every 3 minutes as well a combined 8tph in the off-peaks. In the late evenings the Fenchurch Street to Shoeburyness Service drops to 2tph. Looking at all of this, it will be quite hefty for DTG to implement such timetable like this considering recent situations regarding the WCML. Though the C2C has an upper hand, it's fairy small and has a simple network which shouldn't be an issue when developing. For timetable reference: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...24-09-19/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt https://www.c2c-online.co.uk/timetable/
It's a perfect timetable for the passenger services alone. Then there are the freightliner trains from Thames Haven and I'm pretty sure oil tanker trains also run from the Grays area. Those Freight services could be continued beyond Barking over the GOBLIN line by using the route hop function and spawning the train in. If it wasn't for the short gap between Gospel Oak and Willesden you could drive a freight train from the Essex Coastal Marshes to Milton Keynes.
I'm heading back to my old home territory in a few weeks for a ride along the LTS, hoping to see what their 720s are like compared to the GA ones, I hear they've taken a more sensible approach to seating. Then I'm doing the GOBLIN line which I've not been on since the days of Class 104s. Then taking the river ferry from Barking Riverside to London Bridge. I lived in London for 20 years and I've never been on the river so, it's time. I'm hoping that in a year's time we'll be able to do the LTS section in TSW6.
Enjoy your trip. I recently did the Goblin for first time ever and do the LTS most weeks. The 720s are nice. 357s are nicer though. Tatty and need a refurb but that’s underway. They have more character being older. Hope you are right about playing it next year. My charity donation offer still stands.
With some recent ‘incredible’ news, it could make the C2C a much more favourable prospect to develop. Namely with the appearance of DLR stock, and briefly playable Underground services on the Great Western Express. Could see both of these being key to the C2C route being more viable!
To be honest, I am not sure how this is linked and how it would work in favour of C2C. Dlr looks great and love Underground. Hope that C2C can and will be made shortly
The DLR would ‘layer’ (although whether it’s considered stock or not is another matter) in the route between Limehouse and Fenchurch Street. It would be weird running into London and not seeing it parallel running towards Tower Hill / Gateway. The District or Hammersmith & City would be playable layers between Upminster, Barking and somewhere I can’t remember.. but if it’s being pushed as a feature to the GWE on a short section there, then it should certainly be considered for a much longer stretch on this C2C suggestion. In short, imagine the WCMLS without the Bakerloo or Overground being playable.. what a sucker punch that would have been. This is a similar opportunity, but for the C2C line.
thats one of reasons why I started playing WCML again after acquiring Suffragette Line... I did a run with 710 to Euston, from there to MK with 350, back with Pendolino, then took 710 as passenger to I think Harrow and there commandeered 1972 stock to Stonebridge loving routes where you can do this
Bringing this c2c (AKA London, Tilbury and Southend Railway) thread back to the top, as it's the best-detailed of the several threads suggesting this route. And also to debunk the notion earlier in the thread that we couldn't have a route with 2 new trains (the 357 and the 720), given that we've just had 2 new trains in the Zwolle-Groningen route. In my view, it would be realistic and achievable to have this route in its entirety (end-to-end, full timetable) set in the modern day, both 357s and 720s, with AI District/Hammersmith and City line trains using reskinned 484s (same as GWE remaster) and AI DLR (same as Mildmay), and layering from the various routes it crosses (Suffragette and SEHS). And then a 'legends' pack at some point with the old slam-door EMUs. And I would gladly pay £33 for this!
Route already suggested by me down below https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tilbury-and-southend-line.90390/
Agree 100%. Besides, the modular design of both the Aventras and Electrostars means there are already many elements of the 357 and 720 already modeled in TSW. They'll need new scripting to knit everything together obviously so it's not a quick job, but certainly quicker than making a completely different new type of traction.
If we do get it, I hope that we can get the 387 as well. We have an unbranded version on Mildmay, why not the real thing?
I don't think we'll see the 387s in an official release as they were only leased on a limited mileage contract which meant they worked 2 peak services in the mornings and evenings. They might appear as scenarios. They also never ran alongside the 720s which would be the far better pick for second traction on a modern version of the line.
Agreed, the 387s were a stopgap before the 720s. The 387s were also gone before the Suffragette line extension to Barking Riverside.
not just 310’s and 312 units ran on this line, even older slam door stock like the class 302’s, 305’s and 308’s ran on this line. (Also 317’s ran on this line for a bit)
I’d rather a backdated version, arround 1997-98 (class 302, 310, 312 and 317). But this would be more work than other time periods because of the amount of new stock
I would personally say that this route would be best if it was based in the early 2000’s as 3 separate generations of electric multiple units were in use at the time. The class 310/312 (first gen), the class 317 (second gen), and the class 357 electrostar (third gen).
As a newbie here, I was looking for this one in the suggestions since playing the Goblin line and glad to see I didn't have to search too hard being its been popular amongst the community. One can only hope that DTG listen.. For me personally not being British I have no care for the past and want to keep it more towards the present with 357 and 720s, Plus DTG already have the Rolling stock/assets for the Overground and underground lines and could include certain sections of the underground (west ham-barking + west ham to Upminster) similar to how the WCML DLC utilizes its lines along with freighters, more bang for the $.. Guess they could offer another standalone unit of past rolling stock similar to East coastway 313 to appease those nostalgia buffs. Furthermore the 1hour sectors are perfect, after just getting TSW5 and a couple of DLC over the steam sale period and never owning trainsim before (more of a flightsimmer, sorry! lol) I found many of the sectors to be somewhat missing something, not saying I haven't enjoyed my experiences and there is definitely the need for the short sharp stuff but there also needs to be a good mix of hour long sectors (my 2c), and variety to the route with possible small branch lines (or utilizing the first or second stops on the longer ones) along with additional operators.
I don't see the problem with including both the 387 and 720. If you have c2c branding and the train, why not put 2 and 2 together? Just make a separate timetable if you're worried about realism, like with the 313, ScotRail 158, and 380.
Of course, I'd be happy to have both running together. I'd just be a bit disappointed if we only got a 357 and a 387. That said, if this line was released in full by DTG I'd be too busy celebrating to worry about which rolling stock was included.
How hard is it to create timetables with AI units? to DTG make anything practical in regards to generic Library assets, as I haven't seen a lot of freeware mods or third party additions etc compared to something like Flightsim as an example? (I'm too new to know otherwise and since that's what I have been using the most its what Im kind of comparing my experiences to).. I just wonder if a developer creates the scenery for a certain line (I understand that is no easy feet in itself), but take the C2C Tilbury and Southend line as an example then modders or the TSW community can make timetables and liveries to the rolling stock available in the game to whatever time period they desire (providing the units are available).. wouldn't this allow for the sidestep of licensing issues holding certain projects back? But then again I would assume this will only allow PC users this chance and leaves the console players out in the dark!
If they added the 357, 387, and 720, the line to Liverpool Street, the Romford to Upminster line and made the Underground services playable (like on the GWE Remaster) then it would immediately become the best UK route of all time. The real kicker is that because we got Stratford with the North London line, it's all completely feasible.
It would be the best DLC in TSW, I agree. However, possibly because I've lost the positivity of youth as I've hit 53 years on this planet, I can't even countenance the possibility of Liverpool Street or the Romford to Upminster line being included in the same DLC. My actual fear is that we'd only get one of the routes to Shoeburyness or just the Fenchurch St to Southend bit, I'm not even sure whether the Thames Gateway cargo terminal would be included. The District/H&C would have to be modeled given its proximity but it could be AI only. If we get the LTS it's just going to be the LTS, they're not going to model two routes through heavily populated East London. It would be a very time consuming job to just build the 72 miles that makes up C2C's services, adding the lines to Romford and Liverpool Street would be prohibitive for a DTG release and a killer for game performance in East London. I hate being the sensible, pessimist. But the other crucial factors/selling points for any suggested TSW release is that it can be built within the games' release cycle and kept within the current DLC price structure. Personally I'd pay £250 to get all the railways of East Anglia & C2C in one huge release, but that would take 3-4 years to build and DTG have staff to pay in the meantime so need to keep releasing content.
personally I dont like 720s that much and i'd much prefer it to be late 2000s era with the old blue livery
That was a good livery but you'd be looking at wall-to-wall Class 357s which would be less interesting. If we're going for the C2C Blue era, better to do it in the early 2000s and have 1st generation EMU slam door Class 312s and 2nd gen Class 317s in the timetable too. Three totally different trains to play with is better than one.
Maybe Liverpool Street, but isn't Romford incredibly small by comparison, with historic ties to LTS to boot? 4 miles and 2 extra stations, and I don't recall the scenery of Emerson Park being anything special. Plus, the marketing value of "entire London Overground route included!" would certainly offset the production costs of that branch
