Dovetail Can Do Longer Routes But Seem To Refuse To These Days.

Hi everyone. It is me again.
I bought Kassel to Wurzberg sometime ago (Can't remember when) and barely played it.
Currently driving it now and wow its really fun ngl! Proper high speed run. and Scenery isn't half bad at all. 186KM Route (116 miles) It is bloody impressive and I just wish Dovetail would recognise how good there content used to be and the passion that went into it.
I find it depressing that we barely even get any long routes now. Just shows doesn't matter how long the route is as long as it is done right.
Light baking if that what DTG Matt calls it said was a pain and it's done really well I have to say. Yes I know I am complimenting a 3 year old route but just wow.

As you guys know if you see me around quite a bit I love high speed fast routes and I just feel like we need an Even Balance with Commuter Routes and High Speed. Hence why I do these posts. High Speed routes ideally in my honest opinion need to be around the 100 mile mark and at least have a Terminating Station. WCML South for example to Birmingham New Street or London Kings Cross to Doncaster. That be a great run. But you never know what the future holds.
I just want Dovetail to do better.
I work in retail and been doing so for 5 years now and I always go above and beyond customer expectations and they will come back if they receive that type of service.
But here we get it but very rarely.

Good thing I am getting into the German Routes.

What do you all think to what I have written?
What are your opinions on this?

Thanks for Reading

 

DTG did a longer route for UK highspeed with TSW4 and it got backlash for being boring. DTG did the terminus end of WCMLS with 5 and it got slandered for having more commuter focus, as any central IC terminus should have.

JT did WCMLOS & people wanted it based in modern era which would have made it akin to ECML, which again goes back to it being called boring.

No matter what gets published the scope will be an issue for someone. Personally I think ECML did its job fine & despite any misgivings I have, it’s probably one of few routes I’ve put any serious time into since TSW2.

WCMLS is what it is, you’re not going to see anything like that at a significant length, it’s just not in the realistic scope of TSW & by this point it should be clear that if you want something like that, you need to go to TSC.

WCMLOS got the balance just right & used interesting stock to do it, the biggest problem we have with UK content IMO is the fascination with it all being ultramodern, it makes any run over 30 minutes boring, because you’re doing next to no train management.

Overall though both the UK & Germany gets Highspeed mainlines with the core release, so I’m not convinced there’s a gap in HighSpeed content.

 

I totally agree. I wish dtg would make longer routes. A mixture of high speed and commuter. Tbh Kassel wurzsburg I found quite plain and boring, especially if you put the train in autopilot! Constantly in and out of tunnels they may have well done the channel tunnel, I still like doing freight runs though.

Also 100 miles is a bit short for a high speed route.

In this day and age with the technology available I expect to be able to train sim across a whole country, not just little snippets of them.
Or maybe my expectations are a little high?

Considering tsc has some fairly long routes, I thought tsw would go way beyond what we are currently getting.

 

Longer routes would be nice but realistically something like London - Doncaster is highly unlikely, one of the reasons we have routes like KWG and ECML is because they’re easier to make. KWG is 3 stations with tunnels and viaducts and ECML is flat farm land.

I doubt they’d be able to a route like WCMLS but longer not only because of the time constraints they put on themselves but also because the quality may suffer.

 

I partly agree CK, WCML South having the Euston Terminus definitely helped that route. But it's not a bigger enough section for it to Class as a High Speed route. I don't think 30-35 mins with the Pendolino is justifiable.
Again totally you're opinion, but I feel like there is a gap in High speed content and also length wise. Interested to see what TSW 6 brings.
Thanks for you're opinion.

 

They don't need to make the route all in one go though, they could make the sections one at a time then join them up in the future. Tbh I don't know why that haven't done this again since sehs.
Honestly I wouldn't expect it as a free upgrade either, id of happily payed for bothe the routes in sehs separately if dtg said they would definitely be merged in the future.

 

Yes totally get you, Whole country a bit too much but this is what TSW was meant to be for if I remember someone saying that it was going to be a leap forward and that. to have routes cut short and that is disappointing. Euston to Birmingham New Street is 112 miles. 1hour and half run. Great fun that would be. That is a high speed type of route.
With a High Speed route you need immersion, being able to terminate at a Stop and take the train back. On ECML you can't do that unless you are doing the Newark Northgate Terminators.

 

now that you mention SEHS, just played it yesterday, wonderful... first the 3rd rail part, then diverging super-slowly at Strood, then getting some more speed, changeover of power at Ebbsfleet, and then the highspeed section ... such a nice route, so much variety... leaves you wanting even more

 

Same here!
Speaking to SonicScott91 I don't want route hopping to be used for the wrong purpose and have it all split up instead of one route as it just ruin the immersion, not sure if Dovetail had that kind of intention.

 

I wish they would add the Medway Valley Line (Strood to Paddock Wood) so could do the HS1 services from Maidstone as well. I’ve read that SEHS will not be extended any further now though so that would have to be a separate DLC.

 

To be fair, the Gen8 systems would probably melt if they extended the route again

Personally, if SEHS ever gets a further extension I’d push it to Dover Priory & Ramsgate so that you get the full 395 runs, with the Sheerness branch added for commuters. Seeing as the Javelin is the main set piece of SEHS, it would make more sense for that to get a major extension.

 

Whatever route you do, you'll always get someone who isn't pleased. But I'd argue these people are generally in the minority.

SEHS extended was a belta of a route and still holds up to modern standards, because it is made so well. My only criticism of it is I'd like a route that utilises the 700 and 465/9 some more, both are superb bits of traction that are represented and recreated fantastically and seem to be quite restricted in terms of useage.

WCMLS has all the ingredients of being a superb route, but it wasn't the geographics of it that let it down, it was the extremely poor quality that really undermined it and still does. The 350 is just a mess, and the route itself hasn't had the full upgrades we were promised over half a year ago, all because of ongoing core issues that show no signs of being fixed outside of some very minor optimisation patches.

In terms of route length I believe longer routes are possible, but 80 - 90 miles seems to be the maximum we get with cities and countryside scenery in between. And 50 miles seems to be the maximum mileage with densely built up areas.

Hypothetically, I'd be very interested to see if the resources were available, could a dense and long route like London Euston to Birmingham New Street be possible? Or does the technology and platform the game is on genuinely have restrictions in what can be built? My question also is: Is it theoretically possible to create long and dense route, and is it a matter of resources and funds restricting the length of routes? or is it technical limitation issues within UE4?

 

You could have just added to the 6 or 7 other threads on this exact same topic.
The responses likely won't change.
You have 4 routes already in game that you can already use at over 90 miles.
Kassel, SEHS (it's in the name), TGV and Shap.
ECML is 80 miles and also build for high speed, so 5 really.
We've discussed this.
They CAN do a lot of things.
It's if they see a market for it.
Frankly with the amount of people complaining about console limitations (Gen 8, etc)
You're going to get a lot of pushback from people who WANT shorter routes, both for performance and time constraints.
DTG has a "sweet spot" for 90 minutes and less runs.
If you want longer runs, I'd suggest games like Run 8 where you can run most of Southern California or the Southeast US for hundreds of miles. Granted, it isn't TSW or UK but it does have AMTRAK and very LONG routes you can take HOURS on. (It's something like 12 hours to do an AMTRAK run from Los Angeles to Kingsman, Arizona)
I hear Open Rails too has lots of mileage, but haven't played that.

 

It's definitely one of the better routes on tsw. That and bml are the only 2 routes I actually grab my attention for several hours.

 

I generally don't take an issue with how long a route is, I just don't get some of the cut off points. ECML for instance is great. I love ECML, but I'd love the route even more if it continued on to York, a Terminus and real life crew changing point.

I imagine DTG don't develop 100 mile plus routes because of the budget. JT developed WCML Shap with far less budgeting trouble because of how few stations there are compared to something like Euston to New Street. Euston to New Street has far more stations to be researched and modelled, which drives up the cost. The technology is there to give us the busy 100+ mile routes, but the budget isn't!

I personally would love longer routes, but given how expensive game development has become I can't say I blame DTG for producing shorter routes. But what I will ask for is more sensible cut off points in future routes.

 

Yeah if it had of gone to Birmingham I would play it a lot more for sure.
When route hopping was introduced, I kinda realized it marked the end of long routes or mergers.

 

Today, that is the number one reason it is my favourite. So much unmatched variety, and the Javelin runs between London and Faversham, with the power changeover and differing speeds, are enough to keep me entertained for hours.

 

I too would be more interested in a long express route with parallel conventional railways.

 

in what sense? I have played a couple runs on WCML over last week, and havent found anything particularly disturbing/distracting from the drive... and WCML is quite fun to me now, I usually do back and forth with 350, 395 and 710, sometimes even 1972 Stock, and loving different patterns, under and overpasses etc

 

London Commuter is also damn fine, playing lots of it lately, even managed to snag a run from London Victoria to Brighton on board a 12car formation, that was downright majestic (loving long trains, especially when they swish on camera 8 fly by)

 

High speed routes should definitely prioritise length. One of the reason I like ECML compared to WCMLS, is, despite it not having logical end points (WCMLS at least has Euston), you actually get a good run in the Azuma.

 

Its physics have been altered about 3 times, the reverser switch is locked on permanently unless you're shutting down the cab (should be able to be turned to neutral when stopped), it occasionally derails itself, or failing that the bloody thing just freezes and dies when pulled up at stations and you can't get it moving again... Its a right pain in ars... Sorry, behind... I avoid it now because it just frustrates me.

 

some locos/trains you cant change reverser once you are in throttle. not sure how it is supposed to be prototypically on 350

 

No, I mean when the unit is at stand still picking up passengers. It's a broken piece of kit.

 

I love the Azuma, tho it doesnt really react much to descents at around 0.5%, but it isnt a big deal... wish there were more speed changes tho, or a really slower section before speeding up again... so you can practise those braking and such skills a bit more ... maybe another route for it?

 

ehm, why would you change reverser then? just to make DSD/Vigilance beeping shut up?

 

I personally don’t get the obsession with flat out length. Some of the worst routes in the game are some of the longest ones and some of the best routes are pretty short. A short route with lots of variety, stations etc can be great.

As far as what DTG will do I think what matters more is length of service and not miles. Most people don’t want to sit doing a service for more than 1 or 2 hours at the most. So they will do routes where services can be completed in that timeline. You’re not going to see routes where it takes 3 hours to finish a service.

 

personally, I love to do those 2+ hrs long runs on Antelope or similarly long runs on San Bernardino... but it is more about feeling that you actually got somewhere, like you did a chunk of nice "work"... gotten not just a taste but actually did sth that feels complete... like, I would love a proper long-distance train experience, both with highspeed and lower speed sections for a couple hrs... sth that not only tests your skills, but also endurance and focus

like this one lets say, one of my suggestions:
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/western-slovakia-triangle-bratislava-trnava-galanta.85935/
the routes/branches included have portions that include also long-distance trains doing services, are mostly commuters, but at the same time, those locations have complete services running between them IRL... you could actually do realistic "shifts" on those lines, running back and forth... so I guess that also ties into ppl wanting logical/meaningful starting/end points as well

 

I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm sure in the UK when a unit/locomotive is stopped at a station and loading passengers the reverser is placed into the neutral position (and DRA is applied if the signal at the end of the platform is showing a cautionary signal? Although I put it on at each station stop anyway) and that is the driving procedure as far as I know. So it's just part of the immersion that is broken by having this faulty and buggy 350...

 

didnt know that, I just press Q when I hear beeping and thats it

 

Again this is where the problem lies, too many casual players who have the CBA attitude.
Not talking about 3 hour routes more like hour and half max.
Always seem to prioritise the more casual players rather than the players who want to have immersion.

 

Hahahahaha, that is the funniest post of the day, tho I respect it is your opinion but also couldn't care less about your opinion, I will say you are massively deluded and warped in your thought process. Just because someone doesn't want to sit playing a game for multiple hours they are apparently just a casual train SIM fan and really can't be arsed, seriously go outside and touch some grass. The main reason and aim for this whole thread is your not getting what you want, and basically your just having a sulk, take this as a wake up call this game isn't made specifically to cater to you and only you. And just for the record I'm a very hardcore train guy and only just behind that hardcore gamer too.......

 

ahahahaha, you are so immature coming out with your child like insults. Fyi I work and go out quite a lot. You’re always here to throw insults. No I am not having a sulk at all, was just stating, maybe could have worded it a bit better.
Had some good opinions and got what i wanted. This is where we need Save slots

 

Reactionists aren't worth your time honestly, just mentally mute them and log them in your mind as such. That's all I can say!

 

My biggest problem with longer routes, is it seems like DTG suffers with scenery quality with them.

For US routes, take a look at Cajon Pass or Antelope Valley, both routes (85-miles and 75-miles) both suffer in areas with the scenery in either lack of details, or just horrible quality.

Then you look at the MBTA Framingham/Worcester Line, which is only 45 miles, and is probably one of the best US routes DTG has put out for TSW.

If DTG could back up the longer routes with better scenery, then I wouldn't mind it. But dev time and deadlines kind of cap that....

 

Thanks Oscar! what this game needs is save slots! Those are key and the saves need to actually work properly

 

I think he mostly means that every person has his own preference of content here?
There will always be activities that appeal more than others for a player.
for some:
- long stretches are boring
- slow freight is boring
- shunting is boring
- bus services are boring
- expert is boring
- safety is boring

everybody has his choice

edit: i like them all, but not every day

 

One of the reasons WCMLOS is my favourite DLC is that it has longer expresses, short stopping services or shunting services, all depending on what you fancy at the time or how much time you have.

I think all longer routes of a similar distance (And even longer) should have similar variety.

 

If you look at the technology msfs uses, it still has major limitations even though it uses state of the art ai and cloud based streaming. Might look great from high above but up close, the quality is very low. That does not work in a train sim where it needs details up close.

Then there's the issue of getting the data. Ai can't really build a train route based in the 1950s if there is no data to get it from. They can't pull from Google Earth since it only has modern data. Sometimes sections of the scenery is scanned at different times or years so it wouldn't be realistic for the specific time period either. Ai would only be guessing at that point and requires dtg to spend much more time fixing it.

Ai is great but still has many limitations

 

Yeah..... except freight really.
There are layers but they don't add much either despite expectations.
It's a great route visually and I'm sure it's great for passenger people (and those who like the 87/86) but for freight services it's below average. Shunting isn't great.
Same thing with SBD, ANT, etc.
Even MBTA is not "varied" at all.
But yes, everyone has a different opinion and tastes.
You can't please everyone.
It's a lot easier for people just to do multiple runs if they want "longer routes" than it is to actually make huge routes for exorbitant costs that few will ever play in their entirety.
Just doubling a route would logically double it's cost and with people ALREADY complaining about "cost too much"... would the OP be willing to pay DOUBLE or more for that "longer route"?
Shap or SEHS will suit you for a good 90 mins of even high speed run.
The number of people that want longer are small and the number that would pay more for a longer route is even smaller.
Lotta folks look at the "demand" side of things, but few want to reciprocate on what they'd be willing to PAY for that extra content on their end.

 

For me it comes to down Scenery. I’m not buying a long route that’s nothing but Fields and Trees 90% of the way. What’s the scenery like ???.

This is why Fife Circle is my favourite route. It’s got so much variety scenery wise. Stadiums, Lots and lots of towns you go through. Beautiful Bridges, Coastline and Beaches. This is a route I’d love to see get made into a longer route by going further up to Dundee. It would be so worth it. That would make it a 1 Hour and 30 minute route from need to end.

Then there is Kassel Wurzburg that is a whopping 100km but it’s literally nothing but Tunnel and Bridge the entire way !!!. I personally don’t find it that fun to drive. I’ve only played it maybe 3 times since TSW 3 released. I do enjoy the ICE 1 however. Good train.

 

I feel like most of this has been answered already, but my 2 cents is that if you’re going to market a high speed train (Pendolino) you need to have a route to accommodate the length. A 30-35 minute journey isn't justifiable, you need double that amount of time to fully appreciate it.

I know Dovetail need to make money by churning out content at a fast pace, but deadlines really ruin the game. Routes being cut short isn’t a good look. Maybe Focus should hire more staff at DTG, obviously the work load is too much for a higher quality product right now?

 

Scenery is important, but I don't mind sacrificing it a bit if it means we get a long route (as long as said long route isn't your bog standard EMU bus service).

 

Actually, he's expressing a desire (which others seem to share) for longer routes rather than the short ones we seem to be getting.

He's right about casual players. DTG are falling into the trap most game companies fall into by only catering to those who want a 30 minute drive with an easy to use train, while alienating those who don't.

 

Thanks Jack, this is the point and I don't mean to single out the casual players but its true.

 

This right here as well! Giving the Pendolino a 30-35 minute route is just not justifiable in anyway

 

Kassel - Würzburg has three stations, and only a few built-up areas which are close to the line.

WCML to Birmingham would have how many stations/towns? Likewise, ECML from London to Doncaster would have how many?
I can't be bothered finding the numbers but it's multiple times greater than three, for sure. WCMLS (as we have it) is in the 20's, if I'm not mistaken.

Rural scenery is a lot shallower than urban scenery, thus, the more rural a line is (KWG) the easier it is to make, whereas a route that runs through built-up areas (WCML/ECML) will take a lot longer if they want it to be any good. Also, stations need custom models which adds more time to development and in the case of WCMLS (to Birmingham) especially it would be something of a mega-project to build both Birmingham and London (had they done both at the same time) as well as the places on the way.

If you flip it and find a route with a handful of stations and a similar length, you'd be in with a shout. ECML Newcastle - Edinburgh, perhaps. WCML North, perhaps not, because of Glasgow's suburban network.

In Germany, similarly to Kassel-Würzburg, the Köln - Frankfurt High Speed Line only has a handful of stations along it, three of which (Köln, Frankfurt Flughafen, Frankfurt Hbf) already exist in-game, and runs for a similar length to KWG. It's a tougher ask than KWG but it's got a base to work from at both ends.


Also, as much as it may well be your cup of tea, long routes (particularly open ones like KWG) aren't everyone's favourite. KWG is quite a boring route for me personally, as is East Coast Mainline because both routes are fairly unremarkable. KWG is fast but a good amount of time is spent in tunnels and the open sections are often so quick you can't stick around in free camera to look around. ECML is quite unremarkable scenery-wise, isn't all that fast, and doesn't have much life to it.
Southeastern High-speed is alright for me because the High-Speed section is okay scenery-wise (not in quality, but in having stuff to look at) and there's the option of having a more commuter-like start/finish to a run if you take the train through Medway.

There's a lot more to a good route than length, and wanting length for length's sake won't make the game any better, IMO.
And it won't make it any more likely for Dovetail or any dev because of just how hard it is.

1. Expectations are very high. TSW routes (as with TSC) are mostly done by hand (you can see this clearly if you look at any route-building thread on the PC Editor forum, and I assume there's videos on YouTube) and take a long time.
There's no way to import an entire country and, unlike Flight Simulator, there's a lot more that needs to be modelled than just Landmarks and Airports (Stations).

2. TSW's a much higher-quality game, it's graphics are higher and you're more likely to notice poorly-made scenery. Rivet's worst routes look like average TSC scenery, but TSW's graphics make it far more noticeable. Also I imagine the fact you can't walk around and interact with stuff in TSC makes things a lot easier too. You can get a lot more mileage done in TSC in the time a TSW route would take.

 

This isn't a problem it's a matter of preference. For the button-counters at the top as well as (I'd suggest) a good chunk of the playerbase (particularly on Xbox/PS) that is ideal. My preference is 30-45 minutes which is why I usually stick to commuter/regional routes. Some casuals prefer longer high-speed runs.

There's nothing wrong and the "CBA Attitude" isn't there. Why would anyone fight the corner of people wanting longer routes when they aren't interested?
Everyone wants routes that they like and I see no point in slamming certain groups of the playerbase for, effectively, just that.

 

I think extentions are the way forward, if the game is to get any better. At the moment I can't see DTG making routes any longer than they are, so the next best thing is making routes that can be bought separately that "peice" together, to make a longer route. If the tech isn't there yet then they can make it extentions as part of the yearly core package, like Southeastern was.

 

For me - as a Fifer - the scenery is actually the biggest issue with the route. No other way of saying it unfortunately but it is absolutely LOVE! Edinburgh Airport is all but missing, as is the Queensferry Crossing, and one look at the Dual Carriageway beside Dunfermline City station would have you thinking you were playing Minecraft and not a Train Sim.

It's got the potential to be one of the best routes in the game, but the writing was on the wall the minute it was taken into Rivet's hands.