I know the 91s were mostly refined to the ECML, but I think it would be pretty cool to create a new WCML TT which includes 91s as IIRC 91s were originally intended ded to run on the WCML and had some test runs in the early 90s. I think that's for another 3rd party to explore.
So the /6 was modified from the /4, so I'll start there. The /4 was basically identical to the /2, and the subclass was more about where they came from rather than their actual capabilities. The /2 was the original refurbishment from the /0 with the new bogies and flexicoil suspension done in the 70s, whereas the /4 was made in the 80s when the remaining /0s and /3s were all updated to the /2 standard. Those subtypes by that point had already spent some time restricted to freight work because of their faults and this continued after they were refurbished, which is what led to the fact that despite being functionally identical, the /4 was used for mixed traffic while the /2 was passenger. The conversion to /6 had the heating systems isolated or removed entirely, as rather than mixed traffic they were now exclusively freight. The big difference was that they were re-geared, they traded speed for torque and as a result were reduced to being capable of only 75mph, but they were able to deliver more pulling power than the other subtypes. It put them on par with the pulling power of the 90s I believe, though the 90s still got to have their cake and eat it as while being that strong they were still capable of the same speeds as the 87. By the time of present day Freightliner both were mostly used in pairs and would have seen the addition of GSM-R and ETS.
I'd reckon a 25 more likely as it's easier to get research done and sounds etc. 1 85 exists and hasn't roared in years.
Yes, it’s nitpicking, but we are all entitled to an opinion! I’d argue that WCMLoS would have been better set in early 90s to allow DVT operation with the 86s/87s. Extra DLC could have included a Class 90 at a later date. 87002 with IC Swallow Mk3s + DVT would have layered perfectly into WCMLS as an LSL rail tour. We already have conventional loco-hauled routes in BR days such as NTP, WCL and other DLC packs like the Westerns for GWML. Never mind though, it’s a fantastic route and cannot wait for the 86s!
As someone who hates driving from cab cars, I have to say being able to run WCMLoS in both directions from the loco, is delightful.
My only grip with the route is the fact that all 87s spawn with the panto end leading. I know it's a legacy TSW limitation but with a single panto loco it makes the issue very obvious.
Ah, but you're comparing games that have 10+ times as many customers so they can spread the costs out and make a profit. TSW is a "niche" market, like model trains...only much much smaller. They don't have economy of scale. The content also isn't really comparable either, but mostly the economy of scale. A game dev makes a certain amount on average. If the project they worked on sells 100,000 copies vs 10,000 copies... it matters. At a certain small size you just can't spread the costs out any more. There's just not enough customers. That's not just true of video games, it's just how math works. And you can't go below paying the bills or your studio goes bankrupt. If you could get 10 times as many customers for TSW, then yes costs per DLC would go down. Sim Rail, while being similar content, is not working on the same level TSW is. We've discussed this before. They're more or less doing a single route extension, not new routes, and rolling stock so reusing the same assets with fewer features. Imagine how much you could build if all you build was extensions of the ECML without adding a new loco every route, or changing the assets. Just cut and paste for miles and miles. No obsession over new modes, features, details. The demands of TSW players are quite different. it's more a "hobby" than a business on their end too. They don't have the overhead. Run 8 is likewise lower overhead and made in peoples' spare time by about 5-6 guys (except the third party stuff, which is just a few more guys, not a whole studio) with less overhead. You can DO that... but don't expect social media updates, Roadmap releases, marketing, etc. Again, different expectation. People want DTG to act like a "big company" but with none of the "big company" costs. TSW actually has a LOT of demands on it other games don't have and for that people want even LOWER costs. At some point something has to give. The math has to math.
Nope. 80s are better. Or even 70s. There's almost no 70s content in TSW. Almost like it never happened. I get why though... same reason we're getting more and more "modern" content. The player base keeps getting older and the trains they "grew up with" keep changing. Very few people can say they used to regularly ride on steam trains for example. People like to see what they're familiar with. It's human nature. I'm an historian though. I like old stuff ;-)
They run a few test runs on the WCML... But why create a locomotive and a timetable to cater for a locomotive that never operated the line outside of a few tests? I think that's absurd logic. A 91 for the ECML is the only route for it to make sense on...
I thought most people would have preferred an RBR etc rather than a RMB as they were probably more common on the routes we have to use them on. I know I personally was hoping for an RBR type and was a little disappointed when it ended up being a RMB.
The RMB is king! But seriously in the ideal world we would have got both and yes the RBR, either with the plastic bucket seats or free standing table chairs, was probably more common on the top link expresses. But the RMB has scope to sub into more existing “classic” formations.
I’d tend to disagree there as the RBR would fit straight in to Peak Forest and SoS along with WCMLoS more than the RMB does with them having more long distance expresses. I’d say only Blackpool and NTP would be better suited to the RMB. Growing up next to the MML in south Sheffield the RBRs were definitely a heck of a lot more common on the MML and NESW expresses of the time.
If i remember right, the class 91 was going to be used on the WCML, but after the GOV axed the planned tilting conversion for the mk4s and the 91, BR decided whats the point as they already had locos that hit the 110mph max on the line, at best the 91 would have shaved maybe 10mins off timings due to better acceleration, so they kinda stuck with the 87 and 90.
I think shortly before privatisation BR was developing the InterCity250 program for the WCML, but it was scrapped due to the financial climate of the time and BR being privatised. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_250
Blackpool and WCMLoS are two of the few routes where I actually enjoy a bit of trainspotting, chilling out with a single malt and watching the trains come and go. The variety of services and rolling stock will make them even more immersive once the 86 pack is out, so really looking forward to it!
That is a good reason as well! As has been said by others, they're anachronistic to the route. DBSOs also weren't used on the WCML anyway. A Class 85 would be possible though, and it would be very cool.
one thing i hope JT do when they release the 86 is up the volume of the spirax valve ticking, just seems to quiet from what i remember on both the 86 and 87.
Sooner or later, DTG will get around to updating their old APT for TSW and shove an eye-watering price tag on it, or try some other quick cash-grab scam *cough* Class 390 Pendelino *cough*. I just hope that people dropping £19.99 on loco DLC right now, don't start complaining when it launches with a £35.99 "Expert loco" sticker.
Ordinarily I would have left this for a sale at that price but backed myself into a corner, all joking aside, as regards the RMB! However the pricing policy has bitten them in the posterior. Previously, I would have bought this if £11.99, the E94 pack when it arrives for a similar price and the Frankfurt route for £25 leaving change out of £50. Now the route costs £30, this add on £20 and the E94 probably £25 we are talking about £75. That’s half the cost of buying myself a better video card. So now the only confirmed revenue is they get £20 for the 86, with a maybe for the E94 and a hard wait for a sale on the Frankfurt route.
I still don't know what to make of this pack. The locomotive and coaches are obviously very high quality, and combined with the number of physical and livery variations, that would justify the price tag for me... ...except that, for all the differences that there are, the driving experience is still going to be pretty similar to the 87, and it's not coming with any new timetable services either. I'd be perfectly happy if it changed the driving experience or provided new services, but with the 86 ticking neither of these boxes, I'll just stick with the 87 until this is on a pretty deep sale.
It’s perhaps the price of working with 3rd party developers, in that everyone takes their cut including Steam (or whatever platform), so that extra gets passed on to the end customer, like in so many other industries.
A side effect of DTG exercising distribution control. If JT had been able to sell this direct from their own shop with no cut to DTG and Steam, you might have seen £3 or £4 off that price. Then again, maybe not.
I've said this before but a lot of people (myself included) would love to see a Class 91 set in the game. If an 86 is £20 I could easily see a 91 being double that price
I think £40 for a 91 is far too much. At that kind of price, really it would need to come with a route or something
Yeah, that would be another option. £40 for a loco dlc alone really starts to create a slippery slope (appreciate some don't like this argument)
It could have the entire range of Mark One catering cars, but I wouldn't pay £40 for a train/stock pack. In fact I don't think I'd pay £40 for a route, either. There has to be a red line drawn somewhere and the Class 86 pack sits there as it is.
Yes definitely. £20 for a 91 with the different vehicles modelled, maybe coke can and intercity livery, and a selection of custom liveries seems like it would be similar to JT's 86 offering. I always find it very impressive just how much they put into their add ons! While these things take time to make, based on the various threads, it would be very popular - and therefore the price doesn't have to be as high to compensate. Otherwise DTG would risk pricing out players. Personally, I wouldn't spend that much because if it got broken in an update and not fixed, as does tend to happen, it would be very frustrating. But also, it's just far too much to ask in general IMO
I dont think that the opportunity for a 90 and dvt has been missed. I dont think much will have changed from 1986-1989. All the stock is pretty much the same. Just add a new timetable?
You want a Class 91, but you’re not interested in the ECML? As requirements go, that’s certainly quite niche.
As in that the GWR license is back? So potential for more first group stuff? If so, that *shouldn't* affect TPE, as they are one of the DfT Operator brands now
A 91 is relatively unlikely to appear as a DLC without a new route I would wager. The ECML route is somewhat old hat and hardly the most popular for releasing what would need to be a big development and it couldn't really layer into any other routes. I expect a new ECML route - maybe a TSW6 launch - would feature the 91 as a key selling point. I think a 1990s route would be amazing, including RES 47s and IC HST reskins with possibility for class 56 or 60 down the line. They could then sell a modernised reskin to add the 91 onto the Azuma timetable for Doncaster Peterborough too.
Appreciate there are differing views on different eras of course - but personally, old ECML isn't of interest to me compared to current or transition timetable. East Coast would be ok as an era, Virgin too, further back not really interested. LNER would be my preference. They declared 22nd May as 225 day - would be nice if we got 91 then lol
When I saw it was £19.99, for a minute I did think, it feels a little bit too high for a loco DLC. And then I thought, but it's not just a loco, it's coaching stock as well. And I wondered had the 86 and the coaches been released as two separate DLCs, would it have added up to around £19.99? I figured it would be close. At the end of the day, no-one has to buy any DLC. My last purchase was the Preston-Carlisle route. So am I getting it? Yes. Just Trains are not perfect - there's still some things to sort on both BPB and WCMLoS, but in my opinion their work in TSW has been head and shoulders above the rest. I might not be getting their upcoming 142 (as I don't currently plan to get the Cardiff route), but the BR era holds a special place in my heart and they've produced 2 of my 3 favourite routes to a very high standard.
Am I right in thinking there’s no new timetable for the 86s? They’re just layering on to the existing services. How realistic is the timetable on WCMLOS? Sometimes seems very quiet in places, or is that typical of the late 80s?
