150 Adjustment Confirmed By Jasper On Roadmap Stream Query

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by alexjjones6024, Jul 6, 2022.

  1. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Hello,
    Not my first time talking about this and certainly won't be my last.

    I cannot be bothered to quote exactly what was said, but it seems that River/Jasper had advised that the timetable would need tweaking for the Class 150. Firstly, I wanted to add my 50p in and say that surely if they had done this correctly in the first place when postponing release of WCL, there would be no need to alter physics, sounds and the timetable originally issued.

    All I want to do is use this DMU as it should be simulated. I mean take a look at the 166 now, it's a dream!

    How do I get this sorted as it has taken too long...
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2022
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  2. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If you listened to the man, you'd know that that the acceleration rate & the correct revving on setting off have both been addressed. Why not actually wait until the update is released [to phase JD] later on ...... before deciding it is still broken?
     
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  3. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Why should I have to wait for a fix, when said product is broken and I am staying that it doesn't mean the sounds are fixed. If you are going to bother replying to my thread, don't insult me and speak to me in a tone that is acceptable.

    I have been asking for this to be resolved for a long time, I just wish they would have taken on the feedback and all the research detail we had provided and offered, then we would not be in this mess.
     
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  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmmm.
     
  5. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Where on earth did you read that I insulted you? I've read my response back a thousand times and can't see anything remotely like an insult. And if you don't like the tone of my reply then I am sorry.

    A fix is coming, and yes it has taken too long but that's it is what it is. But saying that fix doesn't address the issues when you don't know what the fix actually contains is a bit daft IMO. If there's still problems after the update then why not provide feedback at that point?
     
  6. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    He did not once mention sounds, only physics related fixes.
     
  7. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Go on, say something a bit more constructive. I know you want to :)
     
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  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Ah, another entitled overbearing post about something you have no control over.
    See... that's an insult, but also true
    The reason Rivet don't listen to what you tell them is because they don't need to, but obviously they fouled it up and then denied all fixes until now which makes them look foolish, so maybe they SHOULD have, but they're not under any onus to listen to anyone specific
     
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  9. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I get that, just wanted to be of some help so that it can relish the same challenges it does on the TSC version. It's represented so well by AP.
     
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  10. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you lower your expectations. Rivet hasn't been able to fix the BR204, which has the exact same transmission problem. They said it would be to long/expensive to fix it because it would require redoing it almost from the ground up.
    Hence, do not expect a proper fix for the 150. Rivet never learn.
     
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  11. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The best policy where Rivet are concerned, at least going forward, is passive resistance. Just don’t buy any of their future products. As regards the 150, well great if they fix it up but they still need to sort out the Great Cornish Forest and the Winterfell tree stumps before I contemplate rebuying West Cornwall.
     
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  12. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    The best advice anyone can have is right here. ^

    If you don't like or have an issue with what Rivet put out, then don't buy anything else of theirs until they address the issue or improve the overall quality. I've never purchased any of their TSW dlc's and I'm confident that unless something significant changes, my money will stay in my pocket. Why should I work hard for my money only to give it to a bunch of people who's work produces half baked rubbish..
     
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  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Well hopefully they don't take up the AP model else to drive one scenario you'd need to spend about £500 and then find a few years later they orphan your content.
     
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  14. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Listen again, he clearly stated it does include sounds.
     
  15. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    TS tools!
     
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  16. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    That they were now correct? maybe my ears deceived me..
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, the old fall back.
    That's a bit like buying a car and then saying "It's fine, I'll just change the engine, radio and tyres because the roof looks fine"
    Not a business model I want any other company following thanks. When I pay for something it should work in it's entirety when it's sold rather than having orphaned consists and a further load of requirements
     
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  18. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Fully entitled to your opinion, though it makes for immersion to use your own purchases and replace them with the ones that AP 'recommend'.
     
  19. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think you're not reading what I'm saying.
    AP sell packages with scenarios which you cannot play without undertaking changes because they've taken required packages off sale
    AP sell packages with scenarios which you cannot play without spending large amounts of money or having to undertake large changes to play in any way as intended because if you don't you end up with missing trains, trains where you only see bogies flowing past, or worse missed interactions

    I'm not talking about making changes AP advise, I'm saying AP are not the best to quote when it comes to business practice, even if they make decent assets and programming. I bought everything they made up to Jan 2020 but got fed up when I specifically asked if they were going to update orphaned content and got a blank "No" in return
     
  20. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Ahh, now I get you. So basically, you are required to own all content produced by themselves? (AP). I've bought loads but even I didn't realise that.
     
  21. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    In a nut shell that's correct, it's not that black and white but that's the general jist
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2022
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  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    For it to work as intended (ie what I paid for) yes. You can change things out yourself but then it's not what I paid for and there can be consequences.
    Say I don't own the AP 319 EPs (there are two) so I spend an hour swapping out all consists for the DTG 319s, 1 - I just spent an hour of my time and 2 - they might work differently than the AP ones so timings would be off etc, which can crash the scenario

    Let's say I don't swap something out properly, ghost trains...

    Let's say they stop selling a requirement. You get the idea
    AP have done all three
     
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  23. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I have a feeling I've had this issue in the past and then it doesn't run right etc. Also, lots of errors and crashes. I mean when it does work correctly, it's great but when it doesn't, I gather it's a disaster.

    One thing I will say though is that in quick drive mode, all sold products by AP do have great quality to them.
     
  24. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    You could make the arguement for virtually anything that if you ignore X,Y or Z then A has great quality. Perhaps not the BR187 currently or the pre-update Arosa, but most things, even the 150 has great quality if you ignore the sounds and physics.
     
  25. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah a different angle makes sense, I just know that for the future of Train simming for DTG, these things need to be right first time. The reason (personally) for this is so that the reliability and trust factor of the brand 'TSW' is stable going forward, especially when issuing 3rd parties with the tools to build DLC.
     
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  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    As I said, the assets and programming is great (probably best in the TSC game), the rest I could do without
    On top of shoddy route creation by many many others (not AP, they only did one route I know of) I gave up on TSC two years ago
     
  27. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    Re: AP products on TSC.
    You only need the extra requirements if you want to run the scenarios. If you only want to create your own scenarios or run free drives then you don't need the extra packs and stock.
    There's a massive discussion on the TSC forum about AP and his business model.
    One thing to note (apart from the removal of packs) is the fact that every time he releases a new pack, he goes back to edit scenarios in other packs making the newest one a requirement for the older packs and scenarios.
     
  28. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Wow I wasn't aware of that, that is some serious shady practice right there. Imagine buying a car and then being told 3 years down the line that you need to buy the latest software update or your motor will glitch everytime you take it out for a spin.
     
  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The scenarios are only part of what you are purchasing. Personally I don't buy the AP packs for the scenarios but for the enhanced models and sound and functionality improvements, I make my own although the AP ones are very good.

    It would be good though if they kept each scenario as originally authored and also an updated one for those who do own any updated stock they require and wish to use them.
     
  30. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    I buy the AP items because a lot of the time they are requirements for 3rd party scenarios on other routes scenarios (JT for example) or freeware routes. Yes, they are good products and so much better than 99% of the default stock but some also like to play the scenarios contained within the pack.
    I don't update any pack once I have bought it unless it is a patch to fix something broken.
     
  31. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, I much prefer the quick drive option. On the other hand, I don't like getting to the end of the route (for example) and then going back to the menu. I really think TSW has the ultimate option of being able to move around and going from one end of the route and coming back again, so to speak.


     
  32. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    So what were we saying about the Rivet 150 then? ;)
     
  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It's been said
     
  34. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Can't swear on this forum :)
     
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  35. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I found Jasper's comments on the 150 somewhat encouraging, he definitely seemed well aware of the particular disappointments people have with the unit and to me it seemed like they have made steps to resolve those issues. Will it be perfect, I have no idea but if they sort out the big shortcomings of the 150 then it'll probably climb quite a ways up my list of most frequently played trains on the game.
     
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  36. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Were not some of the problems with the sounds caused by the way the physics are set up? I thought it was a case of the sounds are there but because the physics do not cause the train to perform realistically that it affects the way the sounds are implemented, or am I talking out of the top of my hat?!
     
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  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    That was a lot of the problem yes, but I gave up correcting people on that after the fiftieth time
    "Oh it doesn't sound like that when you start it up", "Yes because you normally shove it in step 5 and wait for it to start moving", "It doesn't sound right...!"
    Sigh
     
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  38. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if that's ever been confirmed but it's definitely been speculated by quite a few people
     
  39. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    So basically the crappy sounds currently implemented on the 150, which sound really quiet, under powered and generally like a weak class 150 are infact only sounding like this due to poor physics implementation when it was being constructed by Rivet?

    I mean there is no bassy sound from the cab as you would expect, as they really do have a good rev up sound anyway..?
     
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  40. Jasper_Rivet

    Jasper_Rivet Well-Known Member

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    Hey folks, nice to see that a few appreciate us going back to released content (and doing along the lines of a preservation crew update). We're not quite sure what the overall size is going to be, but here's what will be in the update for sure:
    • Characteristic 2s startup delay between rev up and move off
    • Slower and more accurate acceleration between 0 and 30 mph (about 25s slower 0-60)
    • Revs will no longer drop when going into forwards or reverse
    We're having a look at the timetable too, but what's happening to it isn't sure yet.

    Not really. I said that it'll rev up longer now before it then starts going. We'll have a look if we can get our audio guy to have a look at it, but that's a big MAYBE right now.

    alexjjones6024 I couldn't find nearly as many messages from you as your intial post suggests. Nevertheless, I'm glad we could talk on Facebook and will review what you send via email. Many thanks in advance! :)
     
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  41. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jasper,

    Thanks for getting back to me. Today is a new day and I believe you literally replied to my post yesterday afternoon so will alter that part of my initial post :)

    Thanks for getting back to me though.

    As for the sounds, why can't DTG look into this, seen as they have taken on preservation updates and have recently got somebody on board who has improved sounds of many locos?

    Those videos provided should show how the departure sounds work and these should already be ready to ship from the recordings provided by AP?
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2022
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  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Best policy I've ever heard
     
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  43. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Jasper, my apologies. Can you check how the sound/physics operate with the AI class 150's as it would still require to be similar to how we would drive it when loading into the route.

    Cheers :)
     
  44. Jasper_Rivet

    Jasper_Rivet Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that Dovetail is going back and fixing our products - that seems a bit weird to me. If they're up for it, worth having a talk with our team (communication has never made things worse ^^).

    Not sure if we can do much about the AI trains, because these usually have a way simplified physic simulation (I think that's what it still is, correct me if I'm wrong).
     
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  45. uvm0902

    uvm0902 Well-Known Member

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    Jasper, please, please!!! Make DB BR150 a separate view camera from the cabin window. I want to look out the window and inspect the platform.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2022
  46. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    This is correct, AI trains have very simple physics. It has changed slightly over time, they accelerate less like Star Trek Warp 9 now but its still quicker than players can do it.

    Paul
     
  47. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    This is great but three other important things that need addressing are
    >Throttle interlock - ALL throttle notches should be available in brake step 1.
    > Acceleration above 70mph in notches 1, 2 or 3 shouldn’t be happening. Notch 4 roughly holds it steady at 75 and anything below that provides a very gradual deceleration.
    > Internal brake rub is essential, not the quiet sound you have on at the moment. 30 seconds on a real unit and you’ll see what I mean.
     
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  48. argh.bailey

    argh.bailey Member

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    Absolutely 100% big thank you to Jasper and the whole team :love:. I can only speak for myself personally but this is a major positive for me and is a massive factor in if I buy future products or not. Knowing a developer is listening and engaged with the community is a really positive thing and a selling point. WCL was the first Rivet DLC I bought and was probably going to be last, it was only really the 90's setting that lured me in.

    It would be great if this was a normal part of the release process i.e. Release -> Patch after 1-2 weeks to fix urgent bugs -> Long term quality of life patch after 3 months to fix a wider range of smaller problems. Some amount of ongoing support for a limited period should be budgeted right from the start of the project. Happy customers = future profits (I assume). Just knowing that this & future releases aren't fire & forget money printing exercises I think would really change peoples perceptions of issues, big disappointments become minor annoyances.
     
  49. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Release without these issues in the first place would be much better. Rivet have stated previously they are listening but done very little. The Bakerloo 1938 stock still has sound issues, Arosa still has issues. They are supposedly a professional developer who should know what they are doing before taking on a project. Even if the 150 is fixed (and we have yet to see the proof of the pudding) that still leaves all the issues with the WCL route itself.
     
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  50. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    All I would suggest to Rivet is listening to AP's original 150 sounds, at the very least for a frame of reference.
     
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