766.2 Dbpbzfa Electric Brake

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by cattivo, Dec 15, 2021.

  1. cattivo

    cattivo Member

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    Is it only me, but it doesn't seem to work.

    I have tried it on both a scenario and a timetable, and in neither does the electric brake kick in, as in it doesn't slow the train down, and doesn't show as working in the HUD. The handle is definitely moving (I've moved it both with controller and mouse) and on the display directly in front of the driver a small triangle moves to indicate the level of braking set, but after that nothing. I've left it quite a while, but it never seems to kick in.

    Train brake works fine.
     
  2. Drakoz

    Drakoz Active Member

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    Yes, I came across this over the weekend as well. I think it was in the 766.2.

    This is one of the locos (control car) that has the train brake and electric brake levers linked together, right? Move the train brake and it moves the electric brake at the same time, but you can move the electric brake on it's own (unlinked). I was experimenting with just the electric brake and noticed that it does not cause the train to slow down, and it does not show any sign on the gauges of enabling electric braking. It works on the other locomotives/control cars that use this linked lever action.
     
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  3. cattivo

    cattivo Member

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    Yes, this exactly.
     
  4. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    It doesn‘t work if you‘ve got a 143 pushing as far as I know.
     
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  5. cattivo

    cattivo Member

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    Thanks. Is that a bug, or modeled on real life? Just curious.
     
  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, the 143 doesn't have a separate dynamic brake, so there isn't anything for the cab car to control. Try it with a 146 pushing and see if that works.
     
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  7. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I don‘t know for sure, but I’m quite certain it‘s prototypical. The only way to access the electric brake independently on a 143 is the speed selector. The communication between cab car and 143 doesn‘t permit access to the speed selector (which is also why the cab cars don‘t have AFB).

    It does. Put the speed selector to on and use the traction lever to determine braking force. That‘s a prototypical procedure according to original, East German training videos.
     
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  8. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's helpful. But my other query remains: does the DB work from the cab car if there's a 146 pushing?
     
  9. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I‘m pretty sure it does, but I need to check.
     
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  10. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    If you control the 143 from a cab car (ZWS) you can use the electric brake irl. Also with the 146. I don’t recall ever having an issue on the sim, however, usually leave the brakes coupled, hence, would probably not have spotted this. I’ll give it a try some time and report back.

    BTW: you can also use the “dynamic brake only” in the real 143. What you need to do is set the brake force selector to 50%, which corresponds to 100% dynamic brakes. No air should be used (unless you have some fault in the system). Again, never checked this in the sim.
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    However, does the cab car have any mechanism for controlling that? I don't think it does
     
  12. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I was a bit misleading, here. This is in the loco itself, not the cab car. Only my first paragraph referred to the cab car. It was mentioned above that you can not use the dynamic brake on its own on the loco, which is not true
     
  13. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry if I take this chance to sway this thread slightly off topic, but do you happen to know if the brakes on the TSW BR155 are realistic? First, I believe they should be notched, like in the BRD BR143, also, it seems strange to methat the only way to use the electric brake is using the blended train braking. Is there no way to just use the electric brakes alone?

    If TSW is accurate, then would it be reasonable to expect some small usage of the locomotive brake (indipendent brake) for smaller adjustments? AFAIK that would be a no-no on most locomotives
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2021
  14. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Are you referring to this Deutsche Reichsbahn East Germany BR 243 film
    Part 1
    Part 2
     
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  15. adlian_cc203

    adlian_cc203 Member

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    Wow, thank you this is very helpful to know how the locomotive operated in real life. Despite having no knowledge of German, the button/lever they're pressing is simulated in the game so I kinda know what they're doing.
     
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  16. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Active Member

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    well, this serendipitously answered a question I’ve had for a long time. Makes sense.
     
  17. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Same and this might be helpful for Ruhr Sieg Nord Riesa Dresden owners are having problems with DB BR143 also DB BR112 (DR BR212) Hamburg-Lübeck despite the training video being in German language
     
  18. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    According to the training videos, is the button „Freier Auslauf“ simulated in TSW?
     
  19. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    I must admit that I have not driven the 155 in TSW for a very long time. But irl the electric brake is automatically linked to the braking of the loco, as soon as pressure in the brake pipe drops below 5bar. However, you can use the brake force selector to only use electric brake irl.
     
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  20. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Iam.

    It isn't. One of the few things which are not simulated.

    I had asked myself the same question as FD1003 for a long time. As per your explanation, the brake force selector for the 155 in TSW is not accurate to real life.
     
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  21. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    The way I understand the BR155 brake is, that when you use the main brake lever, a certain "brake force" is commanded to the brake cylinders. Before the air is used, the e-brake is used, which can be controlled using the "brake force" lever. This is certainly not the case on the TSW BR155, as far as I remember, as I think the e-brake force increases parallel to the air pressure drop during brake application. For reference, here what the BR155 manual says to the e-brake:
    upload_2021-12-17_11-50-0.png

    If you want to use the e-brake only, the manual refers to a button called "Bremse lösen" (release brakes), which would override the air command to the brake cylinders. This, however, would only work if you have actually used the main brake lever in the first place. Additionally it would still use the air on any cars which you are pulling, as it has only control over the brake cylinders on the loco itself. I was not able to locate this button on the TSW version of the Br155. I have also no idea where this button would sit on the real one, as the manual does not reference this and I dont have access to a real one.

    upload_2021-12-17_11-38-56.png
     
  22. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Is this on Riesa - Dresden or another route?
     
  23. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    The loco brake cylinder pressure gets dropped once the electric brake starts working, if that is what you mean here. That seems to be working as intended.

    My problem with the TSW version is found in this passage of the real manual:
    which translated roughly to: The desired brake force can also be determined through the brake force selector, in which case only the electric brake is used and the air brakes remain inactive.

    That doesn‘t work in TSW as the brake force selector only determines the force of the electric brake while using blended brakes (as described in the earlier passages of the real manual), but the brake force selector can‘t be used to start an independent application of the electric brake.
     
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  24. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    I have seen this passage also. I am not sure how this is meant, though, as it could also mean that you have to press an additional button like "bremse lösen" in order to achieve this, as it is suggested in other parts of the manual?! Do you have more insight into this?
     
  25. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    No, I don‘t. All I‘ve got to go on is the manual and as is obvious from this discussion, it‘s a bit vague in its descriptions and thus open to interpretation.

    It‘s one of those matters that would be incredibly easy to resolve if we had a real life driver of the 155 to ask, but as it stands, it‘s difficult to make definitive statements.
     
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  26. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Good point for DTG they might need a partner in Germany who has access to the Original Deutsche Reichsbahn DDR films or training Manuals for DR BR250 the in game DB BR155. Remember in the East German training films you see DR BR250 DB BR155 do both Passenger and Freight services.
     
  27. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    From my memory, according to what the BR143 driver I was in contact with said, the Zugkraft slider only affects the brakeforce of the E-brake when the ”AFB” is used (0 kN at 0% and max at 50%), not in blended braking. In blended braking the ”steuerdruck” (control pressure or pilot pressure) gives a brake force target (Bremskraftsollwert) that is then used to determine how much E-brake is to be used, and if the E-brake is not enough airbrake is supplemented. This *should* be how the TSW BR143 acts, unless there is a bug.

    The exact function/algorithm for the blended braking is not really available in any manual I have found but talking to drivers gave me a reasonable description. On DRA the BR143 will linearly interpolate how much brake cylinder pressure is left based on the train brake notch and available E-brake force.
     
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  28. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That‘s how the 143 works, true.
    OpenMinded and I were discussing the 155 though as we went a little off-topic :D
     
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  29. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Gotcha. Well the BR155 has not had any work on it in quite some time (afaik) so it will not have a lot of the new features, unfortunately. It’s one of my favorite German locomotives so hopefully it can be brought up to DRA standards (or exceed them) in the future.

    OpenMinded Are you able to share that BR155 manual? I’d be very interested in taking a look at it. :)
     
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  30. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Btw, the Bremse Lösen button does not work prototypically on BR143 at the moment. It should vent the brake cylinder and not increase back when the button is let go, neither when the train brake lever is moved to a higher notch. Only when the brake pipe is reduced to 3.2 bar (basically emergency) would the BCP increase again.
     
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  31. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Here‘s a copy. I think there are a few sources floating around on the internet.
     
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  32. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    If I understood everything correctly I'm guessing it could mean setting a low enough "braking force" so the electric brake alone would be sufficient, and then controlling the electric brake using the braking effort lever. Not sure thought
     
  33. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me then that this control (which is interactable on the TRAXX locos and the 101, but I don't know if it does anything), serves the same function as "baling off" a US loco: when using the train brakes, release the loco air brake so as not to interfere with the dynamics.
     
  34. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    That’s how I understand it as well. As long as there is enough brake force generated for the brake lever setting, it would not add air into the cylinders. And if it does, you can manually override the function and brake using e-brake only.

    pure guess work, though. At least at the moment.
     
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  35. cattivo

    cattivo Member

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    I noticed it on the Ruhr-Sieg Nord route.
     

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